I'll just stock up on cheap margarine. That stuff is so close to plastic it will last forever.

Does it require lots of up and down arm movement? I'm fairly well adept at that...

pfft, I know how to make booze in the bathtub, I'm good.

All kidding aside, i'm getting worried about our economy. we could really be in some serious trouble here.

You can make butter in a mason jar while watching TV, for what it's worth. On that note, the art of canning should be making a comeback. I predict a LOT of small gardens cropping up(lol), too.

Is it really cheaper to buy a gallon of milk and turn it into butter than it is to just buy the butter?

Weaver95: All kidding aside, i'm getting worried about our economy. we could really be in some serious trouble here.

Invest in alcohol. When times are good, people drink. But when times are bad, people DRINK.

Weaver95: All kidding aside, i'm getting worried about our economy. we could really be in some serious trouble here.

You are absolutely entering a recession, as is most of the world. That's not good news, but it is not a harbinger for the end of days either. If you are preparing yourself for a significant economic slowdown, then I praise your wisdom. If you're stockpiling weapons and researching how to churn your own butter, then you're greatly overreacting.

The next year or two is going to suck for many people. Jobs will be lost and the housing and stock markets are going to take a while to rebound. Please try to keep panic levels below "pre-pubescent girl at a Hanna Montana concert" levels and go about your day-to-day business to the greatest extent possible.

Bush Economy? I thought it was the "Obama Recession."

jrdmacdo: The next year or two is going to suck for many people. Jobs will be lost and the housing and stock markets are going to take a while to rebound. Please try to keep panic levels below "pre-pubescent girl at a Hanna Montana concert" levels and go about your day-to-day business to the greatest extent possible.

More and more baby boomers are finding that their retirement nest eggs are gone, or greatly reduced. they're watching the hedge fund managers walk away from the game with plenty of money for themselves, and we're watching bankers and CEO's take taxpayer dollars and give themselves raises. Meanwhile, jobs are moving overseas, wages are falling (or remaining static) and the economy as a whole slows down to a crawl.

I'm amazed at how quiet it is right now. But I don't think that will last for much longer. I think that as more and more boomers have to move in with their kids and get jobs at McDonalds we're going to see more and more anger from the electorate. Obama has his work cut out for him trying to find a way to deal with that situation, and I'm not sure he (or anyone for that matter) can do much about it.

Lionel Mandrake: Bush Economy? I thought it was the "Obama Recession."

The guy hasn't even taken the oath of office yet, and Limbaugh is trying to pin the economic collapse on his head. Amazing, isn't it? But I suppose if I were Rush I'd snort some more oxycotin and ignore reality too.

Gnome with a butter churn:

Weaver95:

The wealth losses for baby boomers who are nearing retirement is a concern, but I sincerely believe that much of the recent losses will be reversed over the next couple of years. That's only conjecture, obviously, and there are certainly going to be some who are hit hard, but I really think the long-term investors will be fine.

On a micro level, I see the migration of jobs to other countries, but does this argument really hold on a national level? The population continues to grow and unemployment (until very recently) has stayed consistently low. I often think that the outsourcing jobs is an economic boogeyman used by politicians to get elected. Does it happen? Certainly, but not in numbers great enough to have a large effect on job growth nationally.

The real issue here, to me, is wage disparity. A talented CEO should make 10X as much as the average worker. That's a reasonable premium for that level of talent and experience. That some CEO's are making 100-300X as much as the average worker is criminal. Quite frankly, no one needs that much money. The real battle over the next decade will be to bring those wages back in line with reality.

Weaver95: The guy hasn't even taken the oath of office yet, and Limbaugh is trying to pin the economic collapse on his head.

Liberals are going to blame any Obama failings or screwups on Bush. Not excusing it, just saying that the Dems are going to pull the same crap, so they don't exactly have the high ground. The Dems as a whole were just as complacent as the GOP in ignoring the problems we have now.

The financial collapse can be blamed on both the Dems and GOP. The some people in the GOP at least tried, though failed, to tighten things up in the earlier part of the decade, though both parties failed to act on what everyone with half a brain could see coming. We sort through the mess and will will find that both sides have people who were asleep at the wheel and both sides who had people who were at least trying to reign in things.

Crosshair: Weaver95: The guy hasn't even taken the oath of office yet, and Limbaugh is trying to pin the economic collapse on his head.

Liberals are going to blame any Obama failings or screwups on Bush. Not excusing it, just saying that the Dems are going to pull the same crap, so they don't exactly have the high ground. The Dems as a whole were just as complacent as the GOP in ignoring the problems we have now.

The financial collapse can be blamed on both the Dems and GOP. The some people in the GOP at least tried, though failed, to tighten things up in the earlier part of the decade, though both parties failed to act on what everyone with half a brain could see coming. We sort through the mess and will will find that both sides have people who were asleep at the wheel and both sides who had people who were at least trying to reign in things.

On this point, I couldn't agree more.

queezyweezel: Invest in alcohol. When times are good, people drink. But when times are bad, people DRINK.

The prices of things are going down but the beer, vodka, rum and wine that I'm buying stay the same price.

Also, butter costs 99 cents. Milk is $4 a gallon. How much butter are you going to get?

jrdmacdo: On this point, I couldn't agree more.

Thanks, but I bet you don't agree on all the spelling/grammar mistakes I made in that post. :P

Weaver95: Lionel Mandrake: Bush Economy? I thought it was the "Obama Recession."

The guy hasn't even taken the oath of office yet, and Limbaugh is trying to pin the economic collapse on his head. Amazing, isn't it? But I suppose if I were Rush I'd snort some more oxycotin and ignore reality too.

I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money that if Obama manages to turn the economy around, Rush will be screaming about how the Bush policies are finally being proven to work.

Aarontology: Weaver95: Lionel Mandrake: Bush Economy? I thought it was the "Obama Recession."

The guy hasn't even taken the oath of office yet, and Limbaugh is trying to pin the economic collapse on his head. Amazing, isn't it? But I suppose if I were Rush I'd snort some more oxycotin and ignore reality too.

I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money that if Obama manages to turn the economy around, Rush will be screaming about how the Bush policies are finally being proven to work.

I just don't see a lot of acknowledgement from the Republicans that they bear a very large part of the responsiblity for our current economic problems.

I finall got around to talking to Dad about Obama's victory over McCain. The numbers were impossible to refute - McCain (and the Republicans) got their asses handed to them. Dad *finally* accepted that reality. Which only took about a week or so to sink in, but he DID get there. He still thinks that somehow Obama is responsible for wall street imploding, but details are a bit vague. And he mentions Pelosi a lot, which I don't really get either. But at least he finally admitted that Obama won and that the Republicans have some serious issues to address if they want to regain lost ground.

In some respects, Dad is a lot like most older Republicans that I know - they really didn't think Obama would win. It just wasn't possible, they couldn't imagine it coming about. And then for McCain to lose so badly on top of it....well, they're slowly coming out of their shock and awe. Now they're all asking themselves 'what next?' and nobody has a clue. All they know is that they lost and lost badly.

The thing is this...Republican radio personalities don't know two sh*ts about the various subtleties of the economy. They know what they can find on the blogs that can simplify the basic elements for the idiot readers.

It doesn't address the sheer vastness of people, their choices and/or mistakes involved in any up or down swing of the economy.

Weaver95: I just don't see a lot of acknowledgement from the Republicans that they bear a very large part of the responsiblity for our current economic problems.

I finall got around to talking to Dad about Obama's victory over McCain. The numbers were impossible to refute - McCain (and the Republicans) got their asses handed to them. Dad *finally* accepted that reality. Which only took about a week or so to sink in, but he DID get there. He still thinks that somehow Obama is responsible for wall street imploding, but details are a bit vague. And he mentions Pelosi a lot, which I don't really get either. But at least he finally admitted that Obama won and that the Republicans have some serious issues to address if they want to regain lost ground.

In some respects, Dad is a lot like most older Republicans that I know - they really didn't think Obama would win. It just wasn't possible, they couldn't imagine it coming about. And then for McCain to lose so badly on top of it....well, they're slowly coming out of their shock and awe. Now they're all asking themselves 'what next?' and nobody has a clue. All they know is that they lost and lost badly.

I think a lot of it has to do with the rhetoric that was being used over the last eight years. Right wing radio, Fox news, and other organizations were merciless in portraying the Democrats and liberals as soft on terrorism, wrong on cultural values, unpatriotic, unAmerican, etc. for so long that many people completely bought the premise that the Dems were the Enemey and the Republicans were the only ones who could save and protect the country. There exists a level on animosity that I haven't seen in the time I have been paying attention to politics. This, along with the fact that the GOP has gone even further over to the Christian right, which adds the whole ultimate good vs evil mentality, made many people think that they couldn't possibly lose.

Not to mention that Bush's victories were closer than what we have historically seen with the Electoral College. Clinton, Bush I, and Reagan all pretty much handed their opponents their asses on a silver platter. This year, Obama won with a decisive popular vote margin, and a debatable landslide in the EC (not to mention increasing the Dem count in the House and Senate) and I don't think that many people were mentally prepared for that possibility. If he had beaten McCain by margins closer to those that put W into office, they might be able to deal with it better.

Aarontology: Not to mention that Bush's victories were closer than what we have historically seen with the Electoral College. Clinton, Bush I, and Reagan all pretty much handed their opponents their asses on a silver platter. This year, Obama won with a decisive popular vote margin, and a debatable landslide in the EC (not to mention increasing the Dem count in the House and Senate) and I don't think that many people were mentally prepared for that possibility. If he had beaten McCain by margins closer to those that put W into office, they might be able to deal with it better.

Yeah, but if I had just gotten my clock cleaned by Obama, I wouldn't be sitting around blaming CNN for my loss - I'd be going over each and every one of my mistakes and correcting them. The Republicans aren't doing that. instead they're going around blaming 'the moderates' for their problems and clinging even closer to the bible. What really annoys me most about this crowd is how they're lamenting Obama's 'socialist' leanings....um, right. Because the Bush Bailout wasn't socialist at all?

Something I've been trying to hammer home with Dad is that the Republicans lost because they became hypocrits. They said one thing and did the opposite. I remember a conversation I had with Dad after the Bush bailout - I quoted the Republican party platform about the 'no handouts to wall street' and stated my belief that the Republicans had just handed Obama the white house. Dad's response? 'oh nobody pays attention to that stuff. it's not important! Did you know that Obama is a closet muslim?'.

Anyways, it's been very hard NOT to say 'I told you so' to Dad about this whole election thing. He's extremely sensitive to the whole issue, and I get the feeling that he'd like to just open up on a rant about the evils of Obama....but it's harder and harder for him to ignore the reality of life in this country. He's broke, has nowhere else to go and he's been unemployed for coming up on 3 years now. Even he is starting to realize that there is something seriously wrong with this country if parents have to move in and live off their kids in order to survive.

Then again, as I left for work this morning he was on the phone with his girlfriend while packing for a golf trip somewhere down south and won't be back for a couple days. so I don't know just how far down reality sunk....but at least he isn't ranting about how McCain can't lose to Obama anymore. So there's that.

You can't churn butter out of modern homogenized milk.

Weaver95: Yeah, but if I had just gotten my clock cleaned by Obama, I wouldn't be sitting around blaming CNN for my loss - I'd be going over each and every one of my mistakes and correcting them. The Republicans aren't doing that. instead they're going around blaming 'the moderates' for their problems and clinging even closer to the bible. What really annoys me most about this crowd is how they're lamenting Obama's 'socialist' leanings....um, right. Because the Bush Bailout wasn't socialist at all?

I would guess that a lot of it has to do with the recent success of using wedge issues to win elections at all levels of government. When the GOP could win with abortion, gays, guns, and so on, they really didn't need a cohesive message other than that. Not to say those aren't important issues, but with everything the country is facing now they should be put on the back burner until we can figure out how to end these wars and fix the economy.

When the methods that have been proven so successful before suddenly end up failing, there really isn't anything to explain the loss other than betrayal to them. Not many people bother to read the entirety of their parties platform, so they let it be defined by demagogue pundits and mouthpieces in Congress. How many of the GOP rank and file know who Goldwater and Buckley were, and why they were so instrumental in getting the GOP where they are today?

But seeing as how the GOP seems to be completely unable to be honest with themselves and why they lost absolutely puzzles me. I suppose it's easier to blame others for your failure than admit that you failed yourself. Again, I think that a lot of it has to do with the Christian right hijacking the GOP to impose a social agenda without regards to fiscal responsibility and intelligent foreign policy. When someone thinks God is on their side, the only explanation for failure is betrayal.

The Democrats found out that running on the platform of "anybody but Bush" didn't work. They realized that they had to have a message and someone who can get it across to the masses, and didn't fall into a party wide civil war in 2000 or 2004 as the GOP is doing.

Aarontology: But seeing as how the GOP seems to be completely unable to be honest with themselves and why they lost absolutely puzzles me.

I think it's been referenced earlier in this thread, but the GOP's inability to be honest about anything as turned on them with some serious consequences. If they are unable to be honest with the voting public for the past 8 years, there is no way they can be honest with themselves now.

Aarontology: But seeing as how the GOP seems to be completely unable to be honest with themselves and why they lost absolutely puzzles me. I suppose it's easier to blame others for your failure than admit that you failed yourself. Again, I think that a lot of it has to do with the Christian right hijacking the GOP to impose a social agenda without regards to fiscal responsibility and intelligent foreign policy. When someone thinks God is on their side, the only explanation for failure is betrayal.

All I know is that fiscal conservatives are being vilified by every last right wing pundit at the local/state/national level. the message is clear - we're either with the social conservatives or we're 'the enemy'. The Republican party is no longer about smaller government and individual freedom, it's about God and gay marrage.

So apparently if I want a balanced budget, i'm gonna have to go hang out with the 'adam and steve' crowd. I might as well see about picking up a couple fashion tips while i'm there, God knows the wardrobe could use some reworking.

MsInterpreted: Aarontology: But seeing as how the GOP seems to be completely unable to be honest with themselves and why they lost absolutely puzzles me.

I think it's been referenced earlier in this thread, but the GOP's inability to be honest about anything as turned on them with some serious consequences. If they are unable to be honest with the voting public for the past 8 years, there is no way they can be honest with themselves now.

That's a good point. The infamous quote "If you repeat a lie often enough, people start to believe it" is very apt here. The strategy completely fails when the people who are telling the lies start to believe them.

Aarontology: MsInterpreted: Aarontology: But seeing as how the GOP seems to be completely unable to be honest with themselves and why they lost absolutely puzzles me.

I think it's been referenced earlier in this thread, but the GOP's inability to be honest about anything as turned on them with some serious consequences. If they are unable to be honest with the voting public for the past 8 years, there is no way they can be honest with themselves now.

That's a good point. The infamous quote "If you repeat a lie often enough, people start to believe it" is very apt here. The strategy completely fails when the people who are telling the lies start to believe them.

That strategy also fails in a society that's always online 24/7 and can fact check anyone anywhere at any time.

Weaver95: All I know is that fiscal conservatives are being vilified by every last right wing pundit at the local/state/national level. the message is clear - we're either with the social conservatives or we're 'the enemy'. The Republican party is no longer about smaller government and individual freedom, it's about God and gay marrage.

Tell me about it. I try to discuss reasonable possible areas to cut spending in the budget (Stop promising old people so much free stuff, stop spending so much being the world police, let Europe take care of themselves and close unneeded bases there, For better or worse let the states take care of internal matters and stop adding another layer of bureaucracy and federalizing everything.) and supposed "conservatives" look at me like I want to eat babies. Then get pissed when I, correctly, point out that they are closer to being a Democrat than a Conservative.

Social conservatives need to get the boot. Worrying themselves silly about abortion or whatever while the GOP sings off on drunken sailor spending sprees is not going to be good for the country or good for winning elections.

Weaver95: All I know is that fiscal conservatives are being vilified by every last right wing pundit at the local/state/national level. the message is clear - we're either with the social conservatives or we're 'the enemy'. The Republican party is no longer about smaller government and individual freedom, it's about God and gay marrage.

So apparently if I want a balanced budget, i'm gonna have to go hang out with the 'adam and steve' crowd. I might as well see about picking up a couple fashion tips while i'm there, God knows the wardrobe could use some reworking.

My aunt falls into the moderate crowd of the GOP. She's voted Republican her entire life because she liked that fiscal responsibility, small government aspects of the platform, but has become very disenchanted as of late. She absolutely hates the social conservative and aspects and isn't too pleased with how they have hijacked the GOP. And this is a woman who goes to Mass every week and donates quite a bit to Catholic charities. She didn't tell me who she voted for this year, but I have strong suspicions it was for Obama. When the GOP starts to vilify and expel people like her from the party, you know they're in trouble.

The political realignment is going to be very interesting to say the least. Not only the budding Republican Civil War, but how the Dems are going to adjust to include all those people who are abandoning and being kicked out of the GOP. If the GOP goes even farther right, the only thing that will happen is give the Democrats complete dominance for a decade or two.

Can someone recommend a good "surviving when times are tough" website that doesn't blame everything on the blacks and Jews? It's a little disconcerting to find that if the shiat really hits the fan the only people that will be left are white supremacists and Mormons. Maybe I'd rather die.

Weaver95

Yeah, but if I had just gotten my clock cleaned by Obama, I wouldn't be sitting around blaming CNN for my loss - I'd be going over each and every one of my mistakes and correcting them. The Republicans aren't doing that.

To be fair, they *are* doing that...

It's just that the answer that they are coming up with is:

"We lost because we weren't enough like Sarah Palin."

I'm a Democrat because I believe in:

1) Less intrusive government,

2) Government that helps people, not just corporations,

3) Fiscal responsibility,

4) A restrained, realistic foreign policy.

schubie: Can someone recommend a good "surviving when times are tough" website that doesn't blame everything on the blacks and Jews? It's a little disconcerting to find that if the shiat really hits the fan the only people that will be left are white supremacists and Mormons. Maybe I'd rather die.

Michigan Militia (they just hate the Government!)

Ron Jeremy's butter?

Nice try, but Dem fingerprints are all over this mess.

To bad you can't shut the internet and talk radio up...you sure tried, they have you nailed.

winterwhile: Nice try, but Dem fingerprints are all over this mess.

To bad you can't shut the internet and talk radio up...you sure tried, they have you nailed.

Oh yeah, Rush Limbaugh sure showed Obama, didn't he?

Unless I'm going to get a couple of "Gubmint" milking cows from Bush or Obama, I don't think the churn will do me much good during the coming American Economic Meltdown -- except as firewood.

winterwhile: Nice try, but Dem fingerprints are all over this mess.

LULZ

Sorry, we have the Internets now. You can't just say a lie over and over and expect people to buy it anymore. This is why the Republicans lost.

Please find a new tactic. This one is not going to work. Personally I'm hoping for 'We farked up, this is how we're going to do better, oh and BTW, we're jettisoning the Jesus Freaks'.

/what, no 'Chairman Obama'?

jrdmacdo: The real issue here, to me, is wage disparity. A talented CEO should make 10X as much as the average worker. That's a reasonable premium for that level of talent and experience. That some CEO's are making 100-300X as much as the average worker is criminal. Quite frankly, no one needs that much money. The real battle over the next decade will be to bring those wages back in line with reality.

Realistic compensation = Socialism = Teh Ebil

According to Rush, Sean, Bill, and...Joe, for some reason.

Weaver95: He still thinks that somehow Obama is responsible for wall street imploding, but details are a bit vague. And he mentions Pelosi a lot, which I don't really get either. But at least he finally admitted that Obama won and that the Republicans have some serious issues to address if they want to regain lost ground.

Yeah, that's the radio dudes. He listens to them, right? They've pinned this recession on the following:

Current: Obama, Reid, Pelosi, and any Democrat in congress since 2006

Past: Clinton, Clinton-era Democratic congress (CRA changes or something, it's unclear), and, wait for it...CARTER.

Somehow Bush I, Bush II, and Reagan (and presumably Ford and Nixon) get a free pass.

All the radio dudes are harping on lately is how the Democrats forced banks to make loans to poor minorities, and that's why we're in trouble now. And how we need freer markets and less regulation. And how Pelosi ran over their dog.

Hi guys! I'm back!

Wow, that was a long time! I left when Republicans gained control of both the White House, Congress and Supreme Court in 2000. Everyone was spouting about a Republican GOLDEN AGE. See all the great things that can happen to the world when Republicans are in charge, etc.

Yeah, I got out quick. But I'm back now. SO.... what'd I miss?

JimmyCarter'sSecondTerm: Is it really cheaper to buy a gallon of milk and turn it into butter than it is to just buy the butter?

The only time it's advantageous is if you already have a dairy cow/goat and are swimming in cream. Otherwise, it should be obviously no.

schubie: Can someone recommend a good "surviving when times are tough" website that doesn't blame everything on the blacks and Jews? It's a little disconcerting to find that if the shiat really hits the fan the only people that will be left are white supremacists and Mormons. Maybe I'd rather die.

Thoughts on Urban Survival (new window)

This essay was written by someone who lived in Argentina when their economy collapsed in 2001. It not only focuses on weapons, but street smarts, dealing with a debased currency, etc. Quite a good read.

DjangoStonereaver: You can't churn butter out of modern homogenized milk.

Use heavy cream.

Weaver95: Aarontology: MsInterpreted: Aarontology: But seeing as how the GOP seems to be completely unable to be honest with themselves and why they lost absolutely puzzles me.

I think it's been referenced earlier in this thread, but the GOP's inability to be honest about anything as turned on them with some serious consequences. If they are unable to be honest with the voting public for the past 8 years, there is no way they can be honest with themselves now.

That's a good point. The infamous quote "If you repeat a lie often enough, people start to believe it" is very apt here. The strategy completely fails when the people who are telling the lies start to believe them.

That strategy also fails in a society that's always online 24/7 and can fact check anyone anywhere at any time.

What surprises me is that people actually did so. Here we've been talking about the complacency of the masses, and just enough of the masses bothered to do their research into the candidates' platforms that they tilted the election.

Yea, if the Rep's had any fingerprints on this mess, a Dem congress would be dragging them in.

So far..... not a one. Guess if you call hearings all that you would find is a lot of Dem fingerprints. Just who had sweet hart loans from countrywide?

Same for Social Security, the ponzi scheme thats failing in 2018 when its input of dollars is lower than its output of dollars. Guess we can all expect that tax increase now. Joe the Plummer you are farked.

winterwhile HURRRRR

Remember folks. When facing a potentially catastrophic economic crisis, the best thing you can do is cast blame and vilify your political opponents, and NOT try to figure out how to fix the mess.

Weaver95: Lionel Mandrake: Bush Economy? I thought it was the "Obama Recession."

The guy hasn't even taken the oath of office yet, and Limbaugh is trying to pin the economic collapse on his head. Amazing, isn't it? But I suppose if I were Rush I'd snort some more oxycotin and ignore reality too.

Looks like a classical case of denial and projection. It is just easier to say that the situation is not their fault and that somehow the pposition is to blame than to look inward and see they need to re-evaluate their strategy. To do so would be to admit that they were wrong, and of course, they can't have that happening.