If the pledge was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me!!!!



/sorry. had to do it.

Simple: Pledge allegiance to your country or GTFO. Doesn't mean you have to agree with the administration, which is not your country, merely a group of crooks who conspired to steal power.

torch: Simple: Pledge allegiance to your country or GTFO. Doesn't mean you have to agree with the administration, which is not your country, merely a group of crooks who conspired to steal power.


It's making kids swear a loyalty oath while saluting a nationalistic icon.

Frankly, I can't see any reason not to do away with the Pledge altogether.

kmmontandon: Frankly, I can't see any reason not to do away with the Pledge altogether.

Why do you hate Cold War era nationalistic America?

since this looks like its going green....

Fark the pledge.

Fake patriotism is cancerous.

SilentStrider: since this looks like its going green....

am I good or what?

Well since, this is green, I'll go ahead and link people to

The Pledge of Allegiance, a History.

and fully expect it to be ignored as the thread continues.

kmmontandon: It's making kids swear a loyalty oath while saluting a nationalistic icon.

Big Brother.

Oh come on Fark, at least tell me when you're going to strip a URL.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

/sigh.

ninjakirby: http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

You might try previewing before posting to make certain the link works.

History of the Pledge of Allegiance

kmmontandon: It's making kids swear a loyalty oath while saluting a nationalistic icon.

Frankly, I can't see any reason not to do away with the Pledge altogether.

Agreed. It's a stupid idea. I ran across this blog post tonight which illustrates why it's so stupid. (FYI: That's written by a guy that works for a company that sells accessories to AK-47 clones. I'm not familiar with his politics but I'm guessing tree-hugging-hippie ain't it. His co-blogger runs an annual clinic where folks shoot at explosive targets starting at 380ish-yards.)

Kids don't even know what they're saying. I sure didn't. It was just rote memorization and you were memorizing sounds as you don't actually understand the words.

It's straight out of the communist playbook. We should just can the damned thing and try to forget we ever had a Pledge.

Oh, and it's anti-Christian, in my view, to do the pledge. What properly educated Christian is going to pledge anything to a piece of cloth? Talk about worshiping idols!

So, as a libertarian minded Republican that takes his hat off when he hears the national anthem (even if it's just on the television), had a 4'x6' flag hanging on his apartment wall before he went and moved in with a woman, has guns coming out of his freaking ears, and Christian, I say: fark the Pledge.

I see no problem with the patriotic kids making the ones who do not participate feel like the traitors they are. It is their right not to participate, just like it is the right of the patriots in the class to call them out for it.

kmmontandon: It's making kids swear a loyalty oath while saluting a nationalistic icon.

Not to mention professing their Christianity, even if they aren't Christian. I for one don't recognize the "under God" version of the pledge to be valid.

AntiNorm: Not to mention professing their Christianity, even if they aren't Christian. I for one don't recognize the "under God" version of the pledge to be valid.

The roots are Christian, but the wording's only expressly deist, not explicitly Christian.

And now that I've said that, they're changing it to "one nation under YHWH, and Christ his son".

Bathia_Mapes: You might try previewing before posting to make certain the link works.

I did =[

Occam's Chainsaw: The roots are Christian, but the wording's only expressly deist, not explicitly Christian.

This is why I had that 'history of' thing going on. The original pledge simply went "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" and it was written by an ex-baptist who was kicked out of his church because of his socialist sermons.

No mention of God was anywhere until 1954.

They should instead recite the Pre-amble to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Thou shalt not put false idols before me. Stop the Flag Worship and read the G-d D-mn piece of paper known at the Constitution.

Occam's Chainsaw: The roots are Christian, but the wording's only expressly deist, not explicitly Christian.

A deist version would be "one nation under a god". The (invalid) Pledge says "one nation under God". This is explicitly Christian.

ninjakirby: No mention of God was anywhere until 1954.

I absolutely loathe the Knights of Columbus for doing that.

Notice the irony in it, though. The "under God" bit has done more to separate our nation than the previous version of the PoA ever could have done.

AntiNorm: Notice the irony in it, though. The "under God" bit has done more to separate our nation than the previous version of the PoA ever could have done.

TRÜDAT.

ninjakirby: Bathia_Mapes: You might try previewing before posting to make certain the link works.

I did =[

Do you have HTML enabled?

Bathia_Mapes: Do you have HTML enabled?

It's possible I did not, but I prefer to think it was internet gnomes stealing my html in order to facilitate the construction of their ultimate beam laser.

Not as realistic I know, but makes for a far better story.

torch: Simple: Pledge allegiance to your country or GTFO. Doesn't mean you have to agree with the administration, which is not your country, merely a group of crooks who conspired to steal power.

Your obnoxious insistence upon doing things your way pretty much sums up America.

ninjakirby: Bathia_Mapes: Do you have HTML enabled?

It's possible I did not, but I prefer to think it was internet gnomes stealing my html in order to facilitate the construction of their ultimate beam laser.

Not as realistic I know, but makes for a far better story.

Yep, way better story. :-)

kmmontandon: It's making kids swear a loyalty oath while saluting a nationalistic icon.

AntiNorm: The "under God" bit has done more to separate our nation than the previous version of the PoA ever could have done.

That's true. I was always taught that God was a 'bottom', not a 'top'. Like most executives, he prefers submissive for some variety.

jbuist: Kids don't even know what they're saying. I sure didn't. It was just rote memorization and you were memorizing sounds as you don't actually understand the words.

So much THIS. My six year old granddaughter doesn't understand what the PofA means, heck she doesn't know what the words 'liberty' or 'justice' really means and has no clue what 'allegiance', 'republic', or 'indivisible' mean. Yet, they still had her stand up and say it every morning.

FTFA: Tedesco pulled his two children out of the school last week but says the reason was academic quality, not the pledge. He plans to continue lobbying for classroom recitation.

I'd think his time would be better spent lobbying them to improve the academic quality at the school.

The Pledge of Allegiance is essentially asking kids to make an oath they don't understand. Making kids essentially make a promise they don't understand is actively promoting blind patriotism which is basic the antithesis of democracy.fark the Pledge. Make a decision to take it or not when you graduate from high school. Until then, a kid shouldn't be pledging anything to anything.

I always thought reciting the Pledge was a creepy, vaguely fascist thing to have to do every day.

AntiNorm: A deist version would be "one nation under a god". The (invalid) Pledge says "one nation under God". This is explicitly Christian.

It could apply to any monotheist religion, not just Christianity. But yeah, it still violates the whole separation of church and state thing.

It's great to live in a country where we can have a debate like this.

I do think that the pledge should be kept in the classroom. I'd drop the "under god" part since it causes trouble for a lot of people and it's really not the main point of the pledge.

Citizens of a country deserve to have children taught that they are part of a country that their parents and their community are proud of and that they are expected to value, respect and take part in it.

If anything, the pledge teaches that everyone should expect "liberty and justice" in their lives. What's wrong with that?

Frankly, I can't see any reason not to do away with the Pledge altogether.

I've never understood it. It's essentially a goddamned compulsory loyalty oath. It's not that I find it particularly abhorrent or offensive. I simply fail to see the usefulness of it. That, and it's a little creepy. I mean...loyalty oath. Let those words roll off your tongue for a minute.

/kids. I love gettin' first crack at 'em

"Super" Patriots? check.

Those who think that showing any signs of patriotism means you are fascist or a "sheeple"? check

Now we just need some random snark and the Eurotrash to let us know how inferior we are to them no matter what our position on the subject is and the thread will be complete.

kmmontandon: torch: Simple: Pledge allegiance to your country or GTFO. Doesn't mean you have to agree with the administration, which is not your country, merely a group of crooks who conspired to steal power.


It's making kids swear a loyalty oath while saluting a nationalistic icon.

Frankly, I can't see any reason not to do away with the Pledge altogether.

This.

I never liked it. It smacks of rote patriotism and it just feels wrong. I love my country, gladly salute the flag and sing the national anthem, but the Pledge of Allegiance bothers me. It has bothered me ever since the 60s, when there was most certainly *not* "liberty and justice for all", and I asked myself what I was being asked to repeat every morning in homeroom.

Mugato writes:

I always thought reciting the Pledge was a creepy, vaguely fascist thing to have to do every day.

That.

Why would I pledge anything to a government that can't even balance its own budget?

AntiNorm -A deist version would be "one nation under a god". The (invalid) Pledge says "one nation under God". This is explicitly Christian.


So tell me how that it is that Jews worship the same God as I do.

if anything, the pledge teaches that everyone should expect "liberty and justice" in their lives. What's wrong with that?

The pledge doesn't teach jack.

It's mouthing words,rote.

notmtwain: If anything, the pledge teaches that everyone should expect "liberty and justice" in their lives. What's wrong with that?

I think it teaches the precise opposite. Liberty implies living one's life without the hand of the government on one's shoulder. Pledging loyalty is not a liberty concept. It's an ownership concept.

one question...ok, so...the kids that want to recite the PoA leave the classroom, and those that don't recite stay...who is that "protecting" the kids that don't recite???

they are still noticably NOT reciting the (stupid) pledge, right?

(ok...that was two questions...)

that said...i am also against the methodical, rote recitation of words that most elementary school kids do not understand and i do not believe that spewing the bastardized words (or not) is an indication of "patriotism".

lastly...that history was very interesting and eye-opening!

Fark the anti-choicers!

Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't feel right. I stopped saying the pledge in middle school, and the only ones who scorned me were the teachers. I also dropped out of the Catholic church classes for the same reason. Now that I'm older I actually understand why repeating things over and over is bad. It's a tool of cults, not of free-thinking people.

Nathan wants to tell you all about the Enclave!

\not obscure

I know this is bad, but I have great memories of being in 6th and 7th grade watching girls say the Pledge of Allegiance. I noticed how carefully they placed their hand above their breast. I wondered if their mom or big sister taught them that.

opiumpoopy:
That's true. I was always taught that God was a 'bottom', not a 'top'. Like most executives, he prefers submissive for some variety.

That explains so much:

log_jammin:
Now we just need some random snark and the Eurotrash to let us know how inferior we are to them no matter what our position on the subject is and the thread will be complete.

Having the kids recite a loyalty oath to a nationalistic symbol every day is a very nice, fascist/totalitarian tradition. Of course Europe has been above that kind of thing for several decades now, proving our higher moral standing in the world.

/happy to contribute to completeness

AntiNorm: Occam's Chainsaw: The roots are Christian, but the wording's only expressly deist, not explicitly Christian.

A deist version would be "one nation under a god". The (invalid) Pledge says "one nation under God". This is explicitly Christian.

No, "one nation under a god" would be Henotheism (following one god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other gods).

So we have a country where a 20 year old is too young to have a beer while a 5 year old is mature enough to profess a contractual loyalty?

Isn't it odd how the "liberty and justice for all" clause somehow doesn't apply to those who would exercise their liberty of non-participation?

Fark the Pledge. For that matter, fark public schools because they rely on taxpayers instead of tuition. And fark the military recruiters and their deadly propaganda that is distributed to minors in every public high school.

When I was in High School, they just made the teacher recite it, and they always rushed through it, and nobody that was a student said it. They made you stand though. The assistant principal recited the pledge over the intercom...

Do the kids give a shiat? No. Just old people of the community.

notmtwain: If anything, the pledge teaches that everyone should expect "liberty and justice" in their lives. What's wrong with that?

The concepts of liberty and justice, at least as far as legal rights, were set out 250 years ago in the constitution, and 800 years ago in the Magna Carta. Try as you might, the legal rights set out in those documents cannot be explained in a one-sentence oath that students repeat every weekday for most of the year for 14 out of the first 18 years of their lives.

Show me one school-age student who can explain what the pledge has taught them, and I may change my mind. Until then, I'll maintain that the pledge is little more than forced patriotism upon those who don't even know what patriotism actually is.