With rapid communication it's much easier to lie to people, but also much much easier to catch people lying.

Which is one reason the internet is so great.

John McCain has done two major things wrong in this election:
1) Run a 2004-style campaign in 2008
2) Run against Barack Obama.

We're not falling for the banana in the tailpipe.

HomoHabilis: We're not falling for the banana in the tailpipe.

You're not gonna fall for the banana in the tailpipe? It should be more natural, brother. It should flow out, like this - "Look, man, I ain't fallin' for no banana in my tailpipe!" See, that's more natural for us. You been hanging out with this dude too long.

cameroncrazy1984: John McCain has done two major things wrong in this election:
1) Run a 2004-style campaign in 2008
2) Run against Barack Obama.

I disagree.

1) McCain sold his honor to get the nomination
2) Obama's campaign was a damn fine oiled machine.
3) McCain didn't learn from Hilary's mistake of attacking Obama personally: Had he stuck with the issues, he may have done a lot better.

Oh come on, I'm trying to have a functional digestive system over here.

Can we have this conversation on November 5 please?

Unfortunately, Rovian politics isn't the only trick the Republicans have up their sleeves.

To recap...

The Obama campaign


The McCain campaign


/that is all

The internet can promote lies much easier now. The amount of time I have heard "have you seen Palin in her USA bikini and a rifle"... Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean, unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff. The fact that he hasnt been bringing up Wright every day is a testament to this.

The RNC can't survive without lies and deceit. They also don't/didn't understand the internet and how easily debunking of talking points would be handled.

I highly doubt the RNC would be behind Palin in 2012 and that they will look to someone who understands the internet better and how to use its power, just like Obama was able to accomplish.

I heard Sarah Palin is organizing an Internet burning in the parking lot of the Wasilla Library on Nov. 3 followed by a good old-fashioned witch hunt and prayer service.

Silovik: Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean

So, stirring up anti-Communist McCarthyism and implying that Obama not only rubs shoulders with terrorists but is also anti-American by the Republican vice presidential nominee is a "clean campaign"?

HomoHabilis: We're not falling for the banana in the tailpipe.

"Nine times out of ten it's a kumquat, but every once in a while... it's a banana. Of course it's FARK policy never to, imply ownership in the event of a banana... always use the indefinite article a banana, never your banana."

Silovik:

The internet can promote lies much easier now. The amount of time I have heard "have you seen Palin in her USA bikini and a rifle"... Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean, unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff. The fact that he hasnt been bringing up Wright every day is a testament to this.


Yes, lies can be quickly spread over the internet. The point is that they can be discredited just as quickly. And only by setting the bar awfully low can you call the McCain campaign a clean one.

Silovik: Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean

Are you serious?

Silovik: unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff.

They may not be his campaign staff, but they are part of the overall operation to get McCain elected. Without that broad net of free support from multiple sources outside of the RNC (Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, NRO) and the campaign, McCain's election prospects would be nil.

They have been carrying his water since his nomination, but each time they bring up something questionable, debunkable, or outright false, they get shot down, and the McCain campaign takes the hit.

Silovik: The internet can promote lies much easier now. The amount of time I have heard "have you seen Palin in her USA bikini and a rifle"... Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean, unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff. The fact that he hasnt been bringing up Wright every day is a testament to this.

Accusing someone of being a Muslim terrorist sympathizer is a "clean" campaign?

This is why McCain's biggest supporters are either

a) The older Americans who do not use the internet, or who use it just for email to their grandchildren. They STILL think Fox is 'fair and balanced'...

or

b) the great 'unwashed, who only use the net to look at porn...

suebhoney: The RNC can't survive without lies and deceit. They also don't/didn't understand the internet and how easily debunking of talking points would be handled.

I highly doubt the RNC would be behind Palin in 2012 and that they will look to someone who understands the internet better and how to use its power, just like Obama was able to accomplish.

Yep, the RNC can't survive without lies, that's for sure. And if we kill off the unicorn-powered happy dreams and destroy the cute-puppy-with-a-little-girl love machines, the DNC would falter as well.

/Are you seriously that naive?

ninjakirby: With rapid communication it's much easier to lie to people, but also much much easier to catch people lying.

Which is one reason the internet is so great.

But sadly, people try more than ever to ignore and evade when their team lies.

The Billdozer: suebhoney: The RNC can't survive without lies and deceit. They also don't/didn't understand the internet and how easily debunking of talking points would be handled.

I highly doubt the RNC would be behind Palin in 2012 and that they will look to someone who understands the internet better and how to use its power, just like Obama was able to accomplish.

Yep, the RNC can't survive without lies, that's for sure. And if we kill off the unicorn-powered happy dreams and destroy the cute-puppy-with-a-little-girl love machines, the DNC would falter as well.

/Are you seriously that naive?

No, the RNC can't survive without partisan dipshiats like you that will defend anything. The ship is sinking and you keep telling them, that Ocean is rising.

Darth_Lukecash:
I disagree.

1) McCain sold his honor to get the nomination
2) Obama's campaign was a damn fine oiled machine.
3) McCain didn't learn from Hilary's mistake of attacking Obama personally: Had he stuck with the issues, he may have done a lot better.

this is exactly right. hopefully, it is the first peal of the death knell for mud-slinging politics.

Poll numbers turned with economic bad news.
That is the opposite of new.

People are still stupid, the media will still work for the interests of their ownership and the timing of the current crisis is just a fluke.

If, and I think it is a bigger if than most do, the fox/rove tactics fail this election I expect a big rebound for them in 2010.

DrBenway: Silovik:

The internet can promote lies much easier now. The amount of time I have heard "have you seen Palin in her USA bikini and a rifle"... Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean, unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff. The fact that he hasnt been bringing up Wright every day is a testament to this.


Yes, lies can be quickly spread over the internet. The point is that they can be discredited just as quickly. And only by setting the bar awfully low can you call the McCain campaign a clean one.

oh really, did you know Mccain is 8 more years of Bush and that Obama is a muslim...

the internet can provide useful knowledge, but is mostly op-ed pieces with massive agendas behind them... most people dont have the will or the knowledge to think critically about what they read, and chances are the interent like every other medium today will push the nonsense stories on page one and the descredited lies on section H8.

i'm not gonna say that the above mentioned things aren't factors, but in addition...mccain has just ran a really bad campaign. i don't mean in a 'he just ran attacks/he didn't talk about the right things/he picked a loon to run with/whatever' aspect...i mean campaign utilization of resources.

case in point, in the home stretch of the campaign, both he and his running mate are spending time today in Iowa...a state he hasn't led yet this year, and is behind by 12...and is losing mother effing Indiana, where anything with an (R) after it's name is supposed to be a given. 7 votes you'll never get vs trying to shore up 11 votes you're supposed to get isn't a hard decision.

much less, hinging his entire electoral strategy on Pennsylvania, which bush couldn't even pull off...i think i just want to know what kind of drugs they're on.

Silovik: oh really, did you know Mccain is 8 more years of Bush and that Obama is a muslim...

that kind of bullshiat equivalency makes me want to punch puppies.

when people act as if mccain 'voted with bush 90% of the time' (a mccain quote, btw) and obama 'worked closely with a domestic terrorist who said he should have bombed more on 9/11' are the same since both are negative, it's just too daft to take seriously. it's like comparing a papercut to a chainsaw mauling.

This is exactly what a few of us were talking about in another Fark thread the other day. It's an interesting subject.

The unfortunate thing is that Rovian politics will still work with the subset of the voter base that is easily misled by fear because they're unable to discern between fact and fiction. The people who fall for the kind of crap being spread in the idiotic viral emails will never be immune to these tactics because they're ignorant of even the most basic foundations of our government. I mean, ask any of these mouth breathers what freedom of speech really means or freedom of the press is, or what the second amendment provides for and why, and they are completely wrong. If they don't know stuff this basic, can you expect them to understand the way a progressive tax works, or what socialism is?

FlashHarry: Darth_Lukecash:
I disagree.

1) McCain sold his honor to get the nomination
2) Obama's campaign was a damn fine oiled machine.
3) McCain didn't learn from Hilary's mistake of attacking Obama personally: Had he stuck with the issues, he may have done a lot better.

this is exactly right. hopefully, it is the first peal of the death knell for mud-slinging politics.

Well, perhaps it's just taken us a couple of hundred years to finally catch up to Thomas Jefferson's ideal informed electorate.

All grand-standing aside, while I admit that we're not quite there yet - we're a lot better off than we were in 2000. The way the internet, or more accurately, the instantaneous access to the majority of the information on the planet, has transformed our lives and our Democracy, is farking astounding.

It sounds real crazy (or perhaps not that crazy), but what are the information brokers, lie masters and spinners from all sides going to do when the average person has a Google/You-Tube built into their phone that they carry with them 24/7? What happens when we get even more linked in?

Google in your brain? It's more likely than you think.

/Google implants? Scary? Cool? I can't decide.

"the death of Rovian politics" is a rash and dangerous statement that has probably been repeated throughout history by naive political optimists. Nixon glowers from his grave at anyone who underestimates the dishonest, selfish and gullible side of humanity.
Don't count this election won until Obama is waving from the whitehouse lawn.

What is supposed to have changed? I don't see much difference in the threads from 2004 and the threads now.

Silovik oh really, did you know Mccain is 8 more years of Bush and that Obama is a Muslim...

Ah -- but that's the difference, don't you see?

"8 more years of Bush" is a proposition backed up with certain evidence: McCain's liking for war, his voting record.

"Obama is a Muslim" is pure rubbish.

The really interesting thing about "8 more years of Bush" however is the predicament it put McCain into: he could only run on being a 'maverick' in a very abstract way. He couldn't come out and say, "Look, I'm a pretty socially liberal kinda guy" to distance himself from Bush without killing the base vote.

That's one more reason why "8 more..." is a persuasive argument. It's not terribly open to attack.

Seqwit Mooselimb, however... it's just not there.

Kazuya
"the death of Rovian politics" is a rash and dangerous statement that has probably been repeated throughout history by naive political optimists. Nixon glowers from his grave at anyone who underestimates the dishonest, selfish and gullible side of humanity.
Don't count this election won until Obama is waving from the whitehouse lawn.

This.

/This. Again. It's worth repeating.

Silovik: Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean

Clean? Have you checked out his website lately? Here's a nice example of distorted truths & smear tactics there right now:

"Who Put Your Future At Risk?---Wharrgarbl!!one11!"

Kazuya: Don't count this election won until Obama is waving from the whitehouse lawn.

And make sure he isn't pushing a lawnmower at the time.

The Billdozer: suebhoney: The RNC can't survive without lies and deceit. They also don't/didn't understand the internet and how easily debunking of talking points would be handled.

I highly doubt the RNC would be behind Palin in 2012 and that they will look to someone who understands the internet better and how to use its power, just like Obama was able to accomplish.

Yep, the RNC can't survive without lies, that's for sure. And if we kill off the unicorn-powered happy dreams and destroy the cute-puppy-with-a-little-girl love machines, the DNC would falter as well.

/Are you seriously that naive?

I never mentioned the DNC because this article/thread has nothing to do with the DNC, but you go ahead and keep assuming that I don't believe both sides can or will lie.

Silovik: The internet can promote lies much easier now. The amount of time I have heard "have you seen Palin in her USA bikini and a rifle"... Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean, unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff. The fact that he hasnt been bringing up Wright every day is a testament to this.

Well, there's also the argument that he's picking his inflammatory battles. Going after Wright might turn off as many of the bible thumpers as it would please the racists.

Talk about low hanging fruit, all Obama's campaign would have to do is run a monage of brain dead clips from Palin and a picture of McCain's melanoma surgery and a heartbeat thumping in the background. Although McCain had no problem crossing that line this past week with the "If you vote for Obama you will die" message in the "He will be tested" ad.

brigid_fitch oh my dear lord, that link is scary.

I'd thought this ACORN business was just a bit of fluff. It hadn't occurred to me that the McCain campaign would be so stupid to think it worth pushing in a serious way.

Wasn't he warmly praising ACORN a couple of months ago? Attending one of their events or something?

The GOP needs to get rid of the social conservatives in the coming years. Let those wackjobs make their own party of pro-lifers, bible thumpers, christian fundamentalists, white thrash, anti-science, anti-gay, and jesus lovers. If the RNC would just kick those retards out and stop trying to pander to them, they would have a better chance of pulling the independents and probably some of the left.

heap: Silovik: oh really, did you know Mccain is 8 more years of Bush and that Obama is a muslim...

that kind of bullshiat equivalency makes me want to punch puppies.

when people act as if mccain 'voted with bush 90% of the time' (a mccain quote, btw) and obama 'worked closely with a domestic terrorist who said he should have bombed more on 9/11' are the same since both are negative, it's just too daft to take seriously. it's like comparing a papercut to a chainsaw mauling.

I agree the scale is massively inconsistent, but dodecahedron puts it nicely here:

dodecahedron: This is exactly what a few of us were talking about in another Fark thread the other day. It's an interesting subject.

The unfortunate thing is that Rovian politics will still work with the subset of the voter base that is easily misled by fear because they're unable to discern between fact and fiction. The people who fall for the kind of crap being spread in the idiotic viral emails will never be immune to these tactics because they're ignorant of even the most basic foundations of our government. I mean, ask any of these mouth breathers what freedom of speech really means or freedom of the press is, or what the second amendment provides for and why, and they are completely wrong. If they don't know stuff this basic, can you expect them to understand the way a progressive tax works, or what socialism is?

Another great example is the Obama will sit down with crazy leaders "without preconditions," and Obama defends himself because he knows that if he says "ya, I will, and I will tell them personally what is up and how its going to be when they deal with the U.S. like a strong president" the next day will it will be Headline: OBAMA WANTS TO SIT DOWN WITH IRAN

They realistically can't go after Wright as it would legitimize the Obama campaign to go after Palin's witch doctor.

Wright was a failed attack for Hillary, but Hillary didn't have an African witch doctor for her pastor. That information won't go over well with those social conservatives concerning Ms. Palin.

PartTimeBuddha: brigid_fitch oh my dear lord, that link is scary.

I'd thought this ACORN business was just a bit of fluff. It hadn't occurred to me that the McCain campaign would be so stupid to think it worth pushing in a serious way.

Wasn't he warmly praising ACORN a couple of months ago? Attending one of their events or something?

He was the keynote speaker at one of their events and praised their work. But of course they don't mention this. Again, it's people being unable to understand an issue that requires above a seventh grade intelligence. It's not being able to tell the difference between registration fraud and voter fraud, or understand the root causes or the solutions.

zeppo: This is why McCain's biggest supporters are either

a) The older Americans who do not use the internet, or who use it just for email to their grandchildren. They STILL think Fox is 'fair and balanced'...

or

b) the great 'unwashed, who only use the net to look at porn...

You forgot the Bible Thumpers who don't see any value in the internet other than to forward chain emails about angels and Jesus' face appearing in laundry stains.

Seriously, I'd like to think that it's the senior citizen brigade who are supporting the current RNC, so that I can rest easy in the fact that they'll die off soon. But there are a LOT of people in the 20-55 range who just simply refuse to hear anything negative about their party. I've been phone canvassing for Obama for the past 2 weeks and it's downright scary how many people in that age range I get who absolutely lap up anything the Republican party says and refuse to listen to any evidence to the contrary.

On the bright side, for every one crazy like that I get on the phone, there are 5 rational human beings, so there's hope.

dodecahedron: Silovik: The internet can promote lies much easier now. The amount of time I have heard "have you seen Palin in her USA bikini and a rifle"... Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean, unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff. The fact that he hasnt been bringing up Wright every day is a testament to this.

Well, there's also the argument that he's picking his inflammatory battles. Going after Wright might turn off as many of the bible thumpers as it would please the racists.

Talk about low hanging fruit, all Obama's campaign would have to do is run a monage of brain dead clips from Palin and a picture of McCain's melanoma surgery and a heartbeat thumping in the background. Although McCain had no problem crossing that line this past week with the "If you vote for Obama you will die" message in the "He will be tested" ad.

This might be my problem, I am Canadian and rely on CNN and NY Times/Washington Post online for my news, dont see the campaign ads or Fox news

Slovik, I'm in a swing state so I'm getting hammered with ads. This fear-based one was timed to launch as Obama took a day off to visit his dying grandmother.

Silovik

DrBenway: Silovik:

The internet can promote lies much easier now. The amount of time I have heard "have you seen Palin in her USA bikini and a rifle"... Mcain's campaign has actually been pretty clean, unless you assume people like Limbaugh, and other right-wingers making up nonsense count as his campaign staff. The fact that he hasnt been bringing up Wright every day is a testament to this.


Yes, lies can be quickly spread over the internet. The point is that they can be discredited just as quickly. And only by setting the bar awfully low can you call the McCain campaign a clean one.

oh really, did you know Mccain is 8 more years of Bush and that Obama is a muslim...

Yes, really. As PartTimeBuddha points out, those are hardly equivalent examples of misinformation.

the internet can provide useful knowledge, but is mostly op-ed pieces with massive agendas behind them... most people dont have the will or the knowledge to think critically about what they read, and chances are the interent like every other medium today will push the nonsense stories on page one and the descredited lies on section H8.

And again, the whole point here is that the internet is a whole different breed of animal from the traditional print media you refer to. Lies can be dealt with much faster than before -- note the example of clips appearing on YouTube in the linked piece -- and continued resolute faith in their validity in the face of easily researched and disseminated facts to the contrary is generally relegated to a hardcore group of true believers who would oppose the candidate who was the target of the false attack in any and all circumstances. In other words, a smaller core will retain the misbelief in the validity of the attack than was the case in the past.

PartTimeBuddha: I'd thought this ACORN business was just a bit of fluff. It hadn't occurred to me that the McCain campaign would be so stupid to think it worth pushing in a serious way.

Wasn't he warmly praising ACORN a couple of months ago? Attending one of their events or something?

Yes, which is why it's the perfect example of Rovian politics. ACORN has always had fabricated names in its new voter registrations. When you pay your workers based on a quota, people are going to cheat. But the fabricated names make up what--maybe 1%? And there's no way Mickey Mouse, Charlie Brown, and Olive Oyl could possibly vote, since there are quality checks at the polling stations themselves.

Although it's technically left-leaning, ACORN does provide a valuable bi-partisan service in that it attempts to register any & all non-registered voters. For McCain to throw them under the bus like this is pathetic & hypocritical.

Here, a picture of McCain at a 2006 ACORN-sponsored event:

dodecahedron: Slovik, I'm in a swing state so I'm getting hammered with ads. This fear-based one was timed to launch as Obama took a day off to visit his dying grandmother.

All I can say is that you were right in your previous posts that this works in politics because people allow it to work by being uninformed and lazy,
McCain maybe should have been doing it 3 months ago if he wanted to win

McCain is on Meet the Press right now...it's really painful to watch him to continue to spew misleading information about Obama's policies.

egads. watching mccain on meet the press, he's arguing with tom brokaw that joe the plumber is more important than polls that have him behind.

q: is obama socialist?

a: he's liberal, let's call it what it is

heap: punch puppies