The scariest line in the article is this one:

The New York Times reported that at least 121 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans had committed a killing in the United States or been charged in one.

Well at least the military taught them a skill, unfortunately it was how to kill.

Being forced into a hellhole where we weren't wanted and everyone wants to kill you has a dramatic effect on the psychological state of a person. Plus the Army refuses to help it's discharged veterans these days.

GAT_00: Being forced into a hellhole where we weren't wanted and everyone wants to kill you has a dramatic effect on the psychological state of a person. Plus the Army refuses to help it's discharged veterans these days.
Huh. Imagine that.

If you haven't served in a war, you have no idea just how easy it is to get farked up for life by the shiat you see.

*holds breath and counts to five to avoid making a huge scene*

Ok. I will just say this. The Fort that is responsible for a large number of soldiers getting DISCHARGED (without benefits) because they had 'PERSONALITY DISORDERS' instead of properly diagnosing PTSD/Depression etc and treating them, is SURPRISED?

Seriously. They need some new leadership over there. NOW.

/Clean house

5 kills in fourteen months ?
Safer there, than South Dallas.

GAT_00: ...Plus the Army refuses to help it's discharged veterans these days.

Military indifference to vets goes back way before this, my friend applied for early retirement back in the early 90's, was denied (they said he was in too critical a rating) then they tried to boot him for failing PRT, it took him years to get his retirement, and they still try and revoke it even after the BCNR issued its final ruling in his favor.

I'm not surprised.

I used to run a video store down there; 90% of my customers were Ft. Carson soldiers.

I've never met so many farking uneducated, unbalanced, entitlement-complex-having, low-class douches in my life. I hate to be ardently anti-military, but the scum at Ft. Carson makes it pretty easy.

Pribar: Military indifference to vets goes back way before this, my friend applied for early retirement back in the early 90's, was denied (they said he was in too critical a rating) then they tried to boot him for failing PRT, it took him years to get his retirement, and they still try and revoke it even after the BCNR issued its final ruling in his favor

Point taken. I remember reading about the Bonus Army.

Pribar: GAT_00: ...Plus the Army refuses to help it's discharged veterans these days.

Military indifference to vets goes back way before this, my friend applied for early retirement back in the early 90's, was denied (they said he was in too critical a rating) then they tried to boot him for failing PRT, it took him years to get his retirement, and they still try and revoke it even after the BCNR issued its final ruling in his favor.

He should've asked for office supplies or a fighter jet from last year. They're throwing those away.

Can they just go back to banging each others wives now?

As a combat veteran, I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Pribar: GAT_00: ...Plus the Army refuses to help it's discharged veterans these days.

Military indifference to vets goes back way before this, my friend applied for early retirement back in the early 90's, was denied (they said he was in too critical a rating) then they tried to boot him for failing PRT, it took him years to get his retirement, and they still try and revoke it even after the BCNR issued its final ruling in his favor.

Well, he should be thankful. He's a murderer, and should be put to dead. Painfully.

almafuerte: Pribar: GAT_00: ...Plus the Army refuses to help it's discharged veterans these days.

Military indifference to vets goes back way before this, my friend applied for early retirement back in the early 90's, was denied (they said he was in too critical a rating) then they tried to boot him for failing PRT, it took him years to get his retirement, and they still try and revoke it even after the BCNR issued its final ruling in his favor.

Well, he should be thankful. He's a murderer, and should be put to dead. Painfully.

Sigh, another 2008 registration, figures, does your mommy know you are up this late?

almafuerte: Well, he should be thankful. He's a murderer, and should be put to dead. Painfully.

DIAF Alty McAlterson.

kinshane: As a combat veteran, I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

I curious to hear (or, I guess read) a veteran's thoughts on this.

..I've never served, don't believe in violence/war, never even been in a fight.

...not meant with disrespect. Just curious.

MIguy: If you haven't served in a war, you have no idea just how easy it is to get farked up for life by the shiat you see.


Perhaps we didn't sign up because we had a very good idea how farked up shiat could be/is.

Things like this don't surprise me. I would expect anyone with first hand accounts of what happens over there to be changed forever. These killings aren't the scariest part to me. It's the ones that come back unchanged and feeling fine that worry me - mostly because they often end up in law enforcement.

FTFA: "We have many great young Americans in our Army who have volunteered to serve during a time of war, almost all of whom are great citizens," [Maj. Gen.] Graham said in a statement.

The problem with Army spindoctors is that they lack finesse.

MIguy: If you haven't served in a war, you have no idea just how easy it is to get farked up for life by the shiat you see.

I've never been in a war (knock on wood), but I don't doubt that at all.

I've seen some messed up stuff as an EMS, but that's always after everything has happened. I couldn't imagine it seeing it happen... and to people I care about.

/not surprised at all

Dispector: MIguy: If you haven't served in a war, you have no idea just how easy it is to get farked up for life by the shiat you see.

I've never been in a war (knock on wood), but I don't doubt that at all.

I've seen some messed up stuff as an EMS, but that's always after everything has happened. I couldn't imagine it seeing it happen... and to people I care about.

/not surprised at all

Or having to do it to others to prevent it from happening to yourself. I think that's where the real mind-farks come from.

/correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I hear

God is simply punishing America for allowing Westboro Baptist Church and all it's homosexual members to survive.

this thread:

they killed civvies but it's all right because they must not have gotten the care they needed.

quit making excuses for them, worthless trash is just that, pushing them a bit and it comes out doesn't change what they were, fark them.

Using the situation someone was in to justify their actions in cases like this is pathetic. Bad sheit happens in war, bad sheit happens in life, can't handle it? kill yourself instead of someone else.

If this was an Oliver Stone movie, you'd find out that all of the dead soldiers and their murderers were involved in some plot dealing with stolen artifacts or drug money over in Iraq.

Being an OIF vet I do get a lot more aggressive when challenged but I'm not up in a clock tower taking people out. The military has instilled discipline in me to make better decisions sooo this is just pending on the person (how they handle stress and being challenged etc.)

wydok: If this was an Oliver Stone movie, you'd find out that all of the dead soldiers and their murderers were involved in some plot dealing with stolen artifacts or drug money over in Iraq.

why else would one go there?

almafuerte: Well, he should be thankful. He's a murderer, and should be put to dead. Painfully.

Hrm . . . when Argentina does that to it's soldiery from their last war, you know, the ones who went to take "Islas Malvinas" from it's citizens, you know, the citizens who made it very clear they would like nothing better than to remain part of the British empire . . . then you have at least some basis upon which to speak such things.

Until then you really should shut the fark up.

Eventually, as the war winds down and more and more troops come home I suspect we will witness various biker gangs and the drug trade to become increasingly more complex and more violent. Given the present job market where anyone coming out of the military who didn't rank as at least an officer is going to have trouble finding a job making decent money except in fields like plumbing or being an electrician unless they go back to college to finish a degree. If this is anything like Vietnam where most soldiers didn't feel particularly comfortable in the classroom post service then, yup, it's a shiatstorm a brewin'.

Remove all Republicans: I'm tired of all the "I don't support the war, but ...." crap. Soldiers are not people who should be celebrated. Going to get yourself killed because some leader wants land and is personally insulted by someone else isn't worth celebrating. Soldiers are idiots, plain and simple. Why not educate yourself instead of learning how to be an excuse for the military-industrial complex? I'll be blunt: I don't support the troops (new window).

Because, you know, everyone is disciplined enough to hold down a regular job and has enough money/smarts to educate themselves. The armed forces is a away.

Remove all Republicans: I'm tired of all the "I don't support the war, but ...." crap. Soldiers are not people who should be celebrated. Going to get yourself killed because some leader wants land and is personally insulted by someone else isn't worth celebrating. Soldiers are idiots, plain and simple. Why not educate yourself instead of learning how to be an excuse for the military-industrial complex? I'll be blunt: I don't support the troops (new window).

While i respect people who disagree with me, your rants and the links you follow with are those of a complete idiot. Your smug ass and complete lack of understanding as to how the world works is disgusting. You are right if you met anyone from a family who is evan closely related to the military they would soundly hand your ass. Get back to you liberal arts degree and STFU.

/drunk

Remove all Republicans 2008-10-19 02:16:18 AM
I'm tired of all the "I don't support the war, but ...." crap. Soldiers are not people who should be celebrated. Going to get yourself killed because some leader wants land and is personally insulted by someone else isn't worth celebrating. Soldiers are idiots, plain and simple. Why not educate yourself instead of learning how to be an excuse for the military-industrial complex? I'll be blunt: I don't support the troops (new window).

I'm having a really hard time not feeding the troll.

Raises guilty hand.Just Arrived: Remove all Republicans 2008-10-19 02:16:18 AM
I'm tired of all the "I don't support the war, but ...." crap. Soldiers are not people who should be celebrated. Going to get yourself killed because some leader wants land and is personally insulted by someone else isn't worth celebrating. Soldiers are idiots, plain and simple. Why not educate yourself instead of learning how to be an excuse for the military-industrial complex? I'll be blunt: I don't support the troops (new window).

I'm having a really hard time not feeding the troll.

I just did. I would love to meet these guys in real life. I imagine most of the time they are cutting them selves and not "conforming"

Grognard:

Wouldn't the 'dirty war' and all the disappeared make a little better argument about Argentina than some retarded colonial pissing match?

Remove all Republicans: . Soldiers are idiots, plain and simple.

Thats a good article. The most pertinent part was that it is a throw of the dice. You might get to fight ethnic cleansing in kosovo, or hunt taliban in afghanistan, or you could get sent to iraq. I joined the marine corps having thought this through. I had a good career path in front of me, graduation, grad school and then probably work in a structural firm or maby a start up manufacturing company, but for some reason I found that path increasingly boring and un-fulfilling looking the further I went down it. I chose to enter the military knowing that it would be low paying, high risk, and quite frankly frustrating. This is not true of everyone in the military, for alot of them the armed forces were their only real choice, but for me it was a calculated decision.

I joined hoping to go to afghanistan, I think that that is a relatively moral conflict protecting our country and not just our national interests but right now its up in the air which one we will be deployed to.

The issue that I take with the article, is that while he makes the good point that entering the military is a moral decision, he is nearsighted in two ways. He does not acknowledge that there are threats to our country outside of canada and mexico. I feel that the existance of a military is moraly justified and that it can only be sustained by volunteer efforts of willing people. His second point which he starts to hit before he backs off and places the moral burden on us, is that the military is below the politicians who are below the people. We can only do what we are told, to do anything other than that is to risk a military dictatorship. The real war criminals are the American people who do nothing to change our bosses. If you dont like how the troops are used, stop reelecting the same dammed people.

For those of you who are bashing Remove all Republicans what he has to say is very valid. Most people who signed up for the military screwed up and should have known what they were getting themselves into. While I do sympathize with many people in the military and believe they should receive full benefits and hospitalization/home health care costs to provide a comfortable life we should not regard them as "heroes" either. Most were kids who made a dumbarse decision or who had little other prospects in their life. The military mission in Iraq is nothing but contemptible and perhaps should be regarded as evil on behalf of the administration. Yes, my family has a long history of military service and I've seen what war does to people. It screws them up and gives them mental health problems.

I'm not in support of the Iraq war, but I think this article is fairly misleading and disrespectful to the troops. From what I learned in history class, there's not a generation in history that has come back from a war right in the head. Frankly, given the number of people we've sent over to Iraq, 121 is a low number. Consider that in places like Fayetteville the domestic violence rate jumps 200% everytime soldiers return home. I don't want to say that I condone violence, but if I spent 8 mnths believing that i was risking my life for the freedom of my family, and I came home to a wife who was pregnant with triplets because she got bored and screwed the mailman, I could personally but a big dent between 0 and 121. Congrats to the troops on their self restraint. The sad truth is that most people don't actually support the troops, no matter how many yellow ribbon stickers are slapped onto cars. Being a soldier is a thankless job, and arguably a pointless one. That's enough to fark anyone up.

Remove all Republicans: I'm tired of all the "I don't support the war, but ...." crap. Soldiers are not people who should be celebrated. Going to get yourself killed because some leader wants land and is personally insulted by someone else isn't worth celebrating. Soldiers are idiots, plain and simple. Why not educate yourself instead of learning how to be an excuse for the military-industrial complex? I'll be blunt: I don't support the troops (new window).

Soldiers are people. You are using the same dehumanizing tactics that the hard-right uses against others. It is an unfair an overly harsh; these guys are dicks, casting all soldiers in that light is unjust.

Anecdotal statistics.

I see the heavy brain trust has permeated this thread.

Yes Sound: Remove all Republicans: . Soldiers are idiots, plain and simple.

Thats a good article. The most pertinent part was that it is a throw of the dice. You might get to fight ethnic cleansing in kosovo, or hunt taliban in afghanistan, or you could get sent to iraq. I joined the marine corps having thought this through. I had a good career path in front of me, graduation, grad school and then probably work in a structural firm or maby a start up manufacturing company, but for some reason I found that path increasingly boring and un-fulfilling looking the further I went down it. I chose to enter the military knowing that it would be low paying, high risk, and quite frankly frustrating. This is not true of everyone in the military, for alot of them the armed forces were their only real choice, but for me it was a calculated decision.

I joined hoping to go to afghanistan, I think that that is a relatively moral conflict protecting our country and not just our national interests but right now its up in the air which one we will be deployed to.

The issue that I take with the article, is that while he makes the good point that entering the military is a moral decision, he is nearsighted in two ways. He does not acknowledge that there are threats to our country outside of canada and mexico. I feel that the existance of a military is moraly justified and that it can only be sustained by volunteer efforts of willing people. His second point which he starts to hit before he backs off and places the moral burden on us, is that the military is below the politicians who are below the people. We can only do what we are told, to do anything other than that is to risk a military dictatorship. The real war criminals are the American people who do nothing to change our bosses. If you dont like how the troops are used, stop reelecting the same dammed people.


Bravo on your critical thinking and thank you for your service - sincerly.

As for the bolded text - I'd like to point out that many people do disagree and an Army Battalion has been permanently activated within the U.S. to keep them from getting anywhere near making a difference. (Search "CCMRF" for more info)

It's not like the folks with serious personality disorders were getting work anywhere else. And it is really not like the Military to 'fix' people with serious personality disorders before sending them into battle. They were probably going to become murderers military or not. The factors deciding their behavior are far more complex than 'Military/Not Military'.

vartian:

Many soldiers are good and intelligent people but the question that requires answering is... how do we prevent a catastrophic problem similar to the post Vietnam era with veterans who turn into violent criminals who end up either dead or in prison or others with terminal mental health issues and a vast homeless veteran population? More people need to understand the traumatic experiences that most combat veterans have encountered without applying the moral standards civilians are typically held to. It's a difficult question.

Z1P2: God is simply punishing America for allowing Westboro Baptist Church and all it's homosexual members to survive.



If anyone wants the sound file I have of one of their 9 year old female members chanting "2-4-6-8 we don't anally copulate!" EIP.

naveline: Z1P2: God is simply punishing America for allowing Westboro Baptist Church and all it's homosexual members to survive.



If anyone wants the sound file I have of one of their 9 year old female members chanting "2-4-6-8 we don't anally copulate!" EIP.

I have a sound file of the Eight Planet League chanting 'We don't play with Uranus'.

Mya_Buttreeks

Not necessarily true, being in the military will make a person more prone to aggression though yeah, the seeds need to be there in the first place but more significantly the military provides the training on how to better kill people and removes any moral question in regard to killing someone you may view as an enemy whether that person is a threat or not. Especially for anyone who was a combat veteran.

Die Kunst Der Fuge: vartian:

Many soldiers are good and intelligent people but the question that requires answering is... how do we prevent a catastrophic problem similar to the post Vietnam era with veterans who turn into violent criminals who end up either dead or in prison or others with terminal mental health issues and a vast homeless veteran population? More people need to understand the traumatic experiences that most combat veterans have encountered without applying the moral standards civilians are typically held to. It's a difficult question.


Give them badges and assign them to the SWAT team?

Chuck Ruffcorn

I know the Los Angeles police department did a lot of recruiting of Vietnam veterans and that didn't seem to work out too well. I don't know what percentage of the force actually was... but, they did a lot of recruiting. Also, police work and military objectives are of an entirely different nature. This is one of the reasons Iraq has been such an awkward mission.

xuanzhiyouxuan

Wouldn't the 'dirty war' and all the disappeared make a little better argument about Argentina than some retarded colonial pissing match?

You are almost certainly correct. I confess to some ignorance though regarding their internal affairs. I don't doubt that soldiers have had some involvement but I would imagine whatever passes for an internal security force would be more culpable there. In any event, I was being snarky and feeding the troll.

I know, I know, bad Groggy, bad - shouldn't feed 'em like that.

Die Kunst Der Fuge: Chuck Ruffcorn

I know the Los Angeles police department did a lot of recruiting of Vietnam veterans and that didn't seem to work out too well. I don't know what percentage of the force actually was... but, they did a lot of recruiting. Also, police work and military objectives are of an entirely different nature. This is one of the reasons Iraq has been such an awkward mission.


I don't disagree with you, but how many cops do you know who don't have military experience?

Remove all Republicans: We cause those people to hate us. You want the world not to hate you? Stop farking with them and actually help them out.

Stop talking you war criminal!!! Why are you so naive to assume that there will ever be a time where there wont be people who operate under the might is right principle. The shoe is not as comfortable on the other foot is it?

I suggest you read Orwells essay: "notes on nationalism" and then come back to the debate. A bit of it is dated, but his definition of nationalism and some of the category s he breaks people down into are very thought provoking. He makes several good points. Notable here are that a nationalist picks a side first, and then looks for supporting arguments. The second pertinent point is the quote: "Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf."

As long as America remains prosperous and profitable with global influence we will continue to have people and organizations and country s who wish us ill.

Walker: The scariest line in the article is this one:

The New York Times reported that at least 121 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans had committed a killing in the United States or been charged in one.

Well at least the military taught them a skill, unfortunately it was how to kill.

This is a urban-legend / run-way meme.
The suicide version of this was covered by Fark a while back.
Almost never covered in the fear-mongering "Fear / Fear For The Soldiers" articles is that among equivalent civilian demographics (age/sex/education level) murder rates (and suicide rates) are actually LOWER among the soldierly (and ex) population. The semi-popular image of vets as more likely to be crazed deranged individuals is myth, not statistical fact.

//And the movie "The Park Is Mine" was fiction, not a documentary.