"Psychotic Reactions & Carburator Dung": I dont care which book you show me about rock music, there is none that even comes close.

None.



/he writes so well, he managed to talk me into obsessing about the Godz and finding their unfindable albums. AND yes I have all four of them (that was before mp3s and all)

There's a brief interview clip of Lester in the extras for the "Untitled" version of Almost Famous that's pretty entertaining. His description of meeting Bryan Ferry is great. There's an expanded version of that from another source here.

Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

Jelly bean, BOOM!

/someone had to.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

I think its not a question of ideology. Its about sound. Most people don't listen to lyrics and basically prog bands choose to have classical influences in their music, as opposed to blues.... which gives it a "pretentious" sound.... its the "arrogance" of someone listening to something cerebral and complex as opposed to visceral and simplistic

because how can you accuse something so simplistic of being pretentious

I understand your question, but im not sure if I associate "pretentious" with punk, but I wouldnt disagree if you mention John Lydon though

I just came here to say that nothing is rare on the internet.

Lester Bangs was the guy that said Iron Maiden were "bound for mediocrity" under Paul DiAnno, right?

I thought so.

Another loser who can't understand the difference between a 21-minute version of "Karn Evil No. 9" and "Rime of The Ancient Mariner".

Having just got back from grabbing a beer and accidentally scrolled the nouse up, someone already made the ELP reference - bravo.

Having looked at HappyHarryHardOn's post is seems that my point is already made for me in a far more balanced way than I could. Bravo, part deux.

Well, apparently I am merely reposting with different words, so nevermind.

HappyHarryHardOn: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

I think its not a question of ideology. Its about sound. Most people don't listen to lyrics and basically prog bands choose to have classical influences in their music, as opposed to blues.... which gives it a "pretentious" sound.... its the "arrogance" of someone listening to something cerebral and complex as opposed to visceral and simplistic

because how can you accuse something so simplistic of being pretentious

I understand your question, but im not sure if I associate "pretentious" with punk, but I wouldnt disagree if you mention John Lydon though

Excellent and thoughtful post. However, IMHO, pretending you are influenced by, say Chuck Berry is pretentious when all you REALLY do is lazily steal a few of his riffs and yell into a mic, badly, about rebellion and drugs and sex. The kicker is this: How many of those bands he liked are still doing it? Very few. They go on to other things, while the bands he hates, like, say, Stanley Clark, are still touring, still making music, still selling tickets. The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls. They don't give a rip about the music and never did. PIL? The worst, most grating shiat I have ever, ever had the misfortune of being exposed to.

"ELP Works: but only as a frisby"

HappyHarryHardOn: "Psychotic Reactions & Carburator Dung": I dont care which book you show me about rock music, there is none that even comes close.

I love that book also. It's a well selected batch of his best writings, which because of his substance abuse could be be quite uneven. But when on his game, there was no one like Lester.

(my second fave; "A Whore Like The Rest" by R. Meltzer)

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

You misunderstand the very concept of punk rock -- which is not really your fault because so does the media that sold you that perception.

You are right in the fact that the "template punk" bands were as bad as bloated prog rock -- hell, worse even (Can you hear me, Siouxsie?)

But the point of punk rock was getting back to the purity of the early years of rock, where passion, energy and inspiration were the source of what was good. This of course is the very idea behind the blues, from which rock evolved. So whether it was "Rocket 88", "Psycho", "Satisfaction" or Search and Destroy" virtuosity didn't matter. That's what punk rock is -- and not having spiky hair and playing shiatty on purpose.

The Dynamite Monkey: HappyHarryHardOn: "Psychotic Reactions & Carburator Dung": I dont care which book you show me about rock music, there is none that even comes close.

I love that book also. It's a well selected batch of his best writings, which because of his substance abuse could be be quite uneven. But when on his game, there was no one like Lester.

(my second fave; "A Whore Like The Rest" by R. Meltzer)

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

You misunderstand the very concept of punk rock -- which is not really your fault because so does the media that sold you that perception.

You are right in the fact that the "template punk" bands were as bad as bloated prog rock -- hell, worse even (Can you hear me, Siouxsie?)

But the point of punk rock was getting back to the purity of the early years of rock, where passion, energy and inspiration were the source of what was good. This of course is the very idea behind the blues, from which rock evolved. So whether it was "Rocket 88", "Psycho", "Satisfaction" or Search and Destroy" virtuosity didn't matter. That's what punk rock is -- and not having spiky hair and playing shiatty on purpose.

I'd rather just listen to some blues then and not the unlistenable dreck of the Stooges.

awesome. thank you Subby. bangs = superstar.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers:

I'd rather just listen to some blues then and not the unlistenable dreck of the Stooges.

you sir, are a moron.

\look out honey cuz i'm using technology
\\ain't got time to make no apology

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

seriously dude. you're not as musicially sophisticated as you think you are. the ramones, say, don't make a front of anything. example:

now i wanna sniff some glue
now i wanna have something to do
all the kids wanna sniff some glue
all the kids want something to do

compare that to stairway to heaven and tell me who's more pretentious. rock is gutter music. its dance/sex music. chuck berry, little richard, gene vincent etc. punk is simple rhythms, simple musicianship, emphasis on beat and fun. that's why its less pretentious. if you're thinking of like henry rollins or something, i understand, but the heart of punk is that stuff: stooges, new york dolls, heartbreakers, ramones, etc.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls.

oh right, i forgot, rock and roll is about being deep and enlightened and saving society.

They don't give a rip about the music and never did. PIL? The worst, most grating shiat I have ever, ever had the misfortune of being exposed to.

hey man, post-punk ain't the same thing. are the beatles responsible for joe cocker? is aretha franklin responsible for christina agulera? sex pistols = great. PiL = meh. i guess some people really like them.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: HappyHarryHardOn: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

I think its not a question of ideology. Its about sound. Most people don't listen to lyrics and basically prog bands choose to have classical influences in their music, as opposed to blues.... which gives it a "pretentious" sound.... its the "arrogance" of someone listening to something cerebral and complex as opposed to visceral and simplistic

because how can you accuse something so simplistic of being pretentious

I understand your question, but im not sure if I associate "pretentious" with punk, but I wouldnt disagree if you mention John Lydon though

Excellent and thoughtful post. However, IMHO, pretending you are influenced by, say Chuck Berry is pretentious when all you REALLY do is lazily steal a few of his riffs and yell into a mic, badly, about rebellion and drugs and sex. The kicker is this: How many of those bands he liked are still doing it? Very few. They go on to other things, while the bands he hates, like, say, Stanley Clark, are still touring, still making music, still selling tickets. The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls. They don't give a rip about the music and never did. PIL? The worst, most grating shiat I have ever, ever had the misfortune of being exposed to.


We all have different taste but i believe tis important to realize that just as ELP, GENESIS, YES and IRON MAIDEN have their place, it is VITAL in order for rock music to evolve that the pendulum swings the other side

there has to be someone who breaks it down to the ground and say "ok, lets start from nothing, its not about skill, its about guts" This is why punk was important. It told an audience that it doesn't matter if you cant play your guitar, its only a means to an end

And I believe punk was vastly influencial. The sex pistols have only one album, and they influenced more with those 12 songs than any other band i know...

Ans I can understand someone who cant listen to PIL, but it took one hell of a man to take rock and roll and change it forever with just ONE album, then form another band, declare rock dead and do something drastically different and just as vastly influencial

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.



As an aside, if you're into This Sort of Thing, Legs McNeil put together a book called "Please Kill Me" about the birth and self-immolation of the punk "movement." It's extremely NY centric, and told as an oral history. It's a quick read and gives - I imagine - a pretty first hand take on the whole thing.

HappyHarryHardOn: there has to be someone who breaks it down to the ground and say "ok, lets start from nothing, its not about skill, its about guts" This is why punk was important. It told an audience that it doesn't matter if you cant play your guitar, its only a means to an end

I was going to try to say something interesting but I think you have everything I wanted to say covered. Punk is an attitude, not a style.

Gangway Fathead: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.



As an aside, if you're into This Sort of Thing, Legs McNeil put together a book called "Please Kill Me" about the birth and self-immolation of the punk "movement." It's extremely NY centric, and told as an oral history. It's a quick read and gives - I imagine - a pretty first hand take on the whole thing.

interesting book... glad you mentioned "It's extremely NY centric" which was both is flaw and its strenght... its an extremely East-side oriented book, but on the other hand, I never came across a book that actually talked about the NY scene: Television,richard hell,Dictators the dead boys, jim carrol, lester Bangs...ect....

and btw here is another great album i discovered through Lester:



get this album immediately, another precursor of punk

goodbomb: awesome. thank you Subby. bangs = superstar.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers:

I'd rather just listen to some blues then and not the unlistenable dreck of the Stooges.

you sir, are a moron.

\look out honey cuz i'm using technology
\\ain't got time to make no apology

Why am I a moron? Oh yeah, because I don't like what you like.

Funny, that makes you one too, asshole.

HappyHarryHardOn: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: HappyHarryHardOn: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: Someone explain to me how the punkers weren't more pretentious than the most bloated, say, ELP record. It's the most conservative style there is musically while making a big front of rebellion.

I think its not a question of ideology. Its about sound. Most people don't listen to lyrics and basically prog bands choose to have classical influences in their music, as opposed to blues.... which gives it a "pretentious" sound.... its the "arrogance" of someone listening to something cerebral and complex as opposed to visceral and simplistic

because how can you accuse something so simplistic of being pretentious

I understand your question, but im not sure if I associate "pretentious" with punk, but I wouldnt disagree if you mention John Lydon though

Excellent and thoughtful post. However, IMHO, pretending you are influenced by, say Chuck Berry is pretentious when all you REALLY do is lazily steal a few of his riffs and yell into a mic, badly, about rebellion and drugs and sex. The kicker is this: How many of those bands he liked are still doing it? Very few. They go on to other things, while the bands he hates, like, say, Stanley Clark, are still touring, still making music, still selling tickets. The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls. They don't give a rip about the music and never did. PIL? The worst, most grating shiat I have ever, ever had the misfortune of being exposed to.


We all have different taste but i believe tis important to realize that just as ELP, GENESIS, YES and IRON MAIDEN have their place, it is VITAL in order for rock music to evolve that the pendulum swings the other side

there has to be someone who breaks it down to the ground and say "ok, lets start from nothing, its not about skill, its about guts" This is why punk was important. It told an audience that it doesn't matter if you cant play your guitar, its only a means to an end

And I believe punk was vastly influencial. The sex pistols have only one album, and they influenced more with those 12 songs than any other band i know...

Ans I can understand someone who cant listen to PIL, but it took one hell of a man to take rock and roll and change it forever with just ONE album, then form another band, declare rock dead and do something drastically different and just as vastly influencial

I'll have to take your word for it. Haven't listened to rock in a while. I don't like the corporate stuff either. If I want to hear a long solo, I don't want it to be a rock guy.

goodbomb: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls.

oh right, i forgot, rock and roll is about being deep and enlightened and saving society.



Yeah, it's not about writing a decent song or anything. No, let's be rebels and dress up like all the other rebels. And for God's sake, don't tune your f---ing guitar. That's for pussies.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: goodbomb: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls.

oh right, i forgot, rock and roll is about being deep and enlightened and saving society.

Yeah, it's not about writing a decent song or anything. No, let's be rebels and dress up like all the other rebels. And for God's sake, don't tune your f---ing guitar. That's for pussies.

i'm strongly pro-tuning.

that's the whole point man. they wrote great songs. really phenomenal songs. search and destroy is one of the very best songs ever. crazy futuristic, ironic, funny, interesting songs. that's exactly what's wrong with prog rock and late classic rock or whatever. bad songs. its all about how sex-god guitar-master everyone is.

I'm getting a kick out of this pointless pissing contest.

goodbomb: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: goodbomb: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls.

oh right, i forgot, rock and roll is about being deep and enlightened and saving society.

Yeah, it's not about writing a decent song or anything. No, let's be rebels and dress up like all the other rebels. And for God's sake, don't tune your f---ing guitar. That's for pussies.

i'm strongly pro-tuning.

that's the whole point man. they wrote great songs. really phenomenal songs. search and destroy is one of the very best songs ever. crazy futuristic, ironic, funny, interesting songs. that's exactly what's wrong with prog rock and late classic rock or whatever. bad songs. its all about how sex-god guitar-master everyone is.

Well, to a degree I agree with you. Some of it is very good. My point is that for many people, it's just a pose. OMG I'm a rebel and a nihilist! (Then get out of the music industry, farkbag! Don't look now, but you work for The Man!)

As for playing an instrument at a virtuosic level, there's jazz and classical music for that. There's just not enough harmonic interest a rock song to support a 3 minute guitar break, but it doesn't need it.
By your definitions, the greatest punk band of all time is AC/DC. But they don't wear the right trappings, so they're not punk. That's the only difference. They rip off Chuck just like the Pistols. Again, people talk about prog rock being pretentious, but the punkers need to clean their own house first.

Also, David Byrne looks, sings and writes music like Bob from accounting/receivable. Don't tell me he doesn't suck.

andorob: I'm getting a kick out of this pointless pissing contest.

OMG rock can't have a point! That would be pretentious. Here, sniff this.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: andorob: I'm getting a kick out of this pointless pissing contest.

OMG rock can't have a point! That would be pretentious. Here, sniff this.

Ewww, I don't wanna know where that finger's been....

Who am I kiddin'? Yes, I do!

andorob: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: andorob: I'm getting a kick out of this pointless pissing contest.

OMG rock can't have a point! That would be pretentious. Here, sniff this.

Ewww, I don't wanna know where that finger's been....

Who am I kiddin'? Yes, I do!

heh heh

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: goodbomb: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: goodbomb: Pontus and the Nail Drivers: The punk guys are just doing it to get on a stage and get some attention, get high, fark girls.

oh right, i forgot, rock and roll is about being deep and enlightened and saving society.

Yeah, it's not about writing a decent song or anything. No, let's be rebels and dress up like all the other rebels. And for God's sake, don't tune your f---ing guitar. That's for pussies.

i'm strongly pro-tuning.

that's the whole point man. they wrote great songs. really phenomenal songs. search and destroy is one of the very best songs ever. crazy futuristic, ironic, funny, interesting songs. that's exactly what's wrong with prog rock and late classic rock or whatever. bad songs. its all about how sex-god guitar-master everyone is.

Well, to a degree I agree with you. Some of it is very good. My point is that for many people, it's just a pose. OMG I'm a rebel and a nihilist! (Then get out of the music industry, farkbag! Don't look now, but you work for The Man!)

As for playing an instrument at a virtuosic level, there's jazz and classical music for that. There's just not enough harmonic interest a rock song to support a 3 minute guitar break, but it doesn't need it.
By your definitions, the greatest punk band of all time is AC/DC. But they don't wear the right trappings, so they're not punk. That's the only difference. They rip off Chuck just like the Pistols. Again, people talk about prog rock being pretentious, but the punkers need to clean their own house first.

Also, David Byrne looks, sings and writes music like Bob from accounting/receivable. Don't tell me he doesn't suck.

rock is very limiting. At some point, everything is plagiarized and lifted off something else, even the most original rock musician you can find...

Captain Beefheart? He stole from Howlin wolf and Bo Diddley

HappyHarryHardOn:

rock is very limiting. At some point, everything is plagiarized and lifted off something else, even the most original rock musician you can find...

Captain Beefheart? He stole from Howlin wolf and Bo Diddley

Agreed, but for me that's not even an issue. Charlie Parker rewrote/reharmonized pop tunes all the time. Bach reworked music a LOT, his own and other peoples' as well. Oops! I'm pretentious. Everyone steals; it's needed.


I'm saying that the problem for me is dismissing "artists" out of hand because they don't wear the right clothes or cut themselves or tune their instruments or know HOW TO PLAY THEM. That's every bit as pretentious and boring as a Yes "symphonic work". Worse, in my book.

Beefheart was just insane. In a good way.

Gangway Fathead:

As an aside, if you're into This Sort of Thing, Legs McNeil put together a book called "Please Kill Me" about the birth and self-immolation of the punk "movement." It's extremely NY centric, and told as an oral history. It's a quick read and gives - I imagine - a pretty first hand take on the whole thing.

Great call on that one. I really enjoyed it. And yes, HappyHarryHardOn, the Dictators did, indeed, kick ass. Handsome Dick's not quite so handsome these days, but who of us is? He's got a bar now, I believe.


Pontus and the Nail Drivers:

You're either missing the point or ignoring it. At the time of the punk explosion, rock had gotten pretty bloated and/or pretentious; it's pretty hard to argue that. The benefit of punk was tearing it all down and starting over again with some passion, energy and fun back in the mix. You didn't have to have thousands of dollars worth of synthesizers or a 20-piece drum kit to be in a band, and your audience didn't have to be so absolutely passive. New blood can be a good thing, and a lot of bands used that period as an inspiration and a springboard to bring some life back to the scene. I have a hard time seeing how that's a bad thing.

Pontus and the Nail Drivers: HappyHarryHardOn:

rock is very limiting. At some point, everything is plagiarized and lifted off something else, even the most original rock musician you can find...

Captain Beefheart? He stole from Howlin wolf and Bo Diddley

Agreed, but for me that's not even an issue. Charlie Parker rewrote/reharmonized pop tunes all the time. Bach reworked music a LOT, his own and other peoples' as well. Oops! I'm pretentious. Everyone steals; it's needed.


I'm saying that the problem for me is dismissing "artists" out of hand because they don't wear the right clothes or cut themselves or tune their instruments or know HOW TO PLAY THEM. That's every bit as pretentious and boring as a Yes "symphonic work". Worse, in my book.

Beefheart was just insane. In a good way.

So I guess we are lurking towards this question then: There is music that is made for music sake out of simple passion for music and there is music that is generated by the social/cultural/political "Pulse" of the time, is one any more valid than the other?

On one side you have Bach doing his thing, but then on the other you have Marvin Gaye singing "What's going On" with sweat, guts and tears pouring out of him... So does comparing him to say, Kraftwerk fair to Kraftwerk? All im thinking is : apples and oranges

classic Lester MC5 review (new window)

I was going to defend prog rock, but im too tired to go into detail. So heres a post for all the people reading this thread thinking "but I like prog rock" to know they aren't alone.

mistervague: I just came here to say that nothing is rare on the internet.

Intelligence?

goodbomb: that's the whole point man. they wrote great songs. really phenomenal songs. search and destroy is one of the very best songs ever. crazy futuristic, ironic, funny, interesting songs. that's exactly what's wrong with prog rock and late classic rock or whatever. bad songs. its all about how sex-god guitar-master everyone is.

I gotta confess, I can see how people can label prog rock musicianship as pretentious - (I don't agree with it, condemning virtuosity makes about as much sense as condemning athleticism or intelligence) - but I don't see how anybody shrugs away something like "Karn Evil 9" or "Roundabout" as bad composition.

The pretentious thing...I don't know, that's such a meaningless word with music. It's a hollow criticism. "Pretense" says that the bands are only creating the music they're playing just to wallow in their own superiority. But that's kind of a crock, for several reasons: most rock stars, from punk to progressive, are doing that anyway. The actual music is kind of irrelevant. Second, nobody pressured these guys to make music like this. It's really an audience built up from scratch, and just as easily could have remained an underground kind of thing (see: math rock). The early albums from Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, and so on continue to be revered for the same reason the early Ramones, Talking Heads, and Sex Pistols albums (or album for the latter): because they're great farking albums. Later on, sure, most bands start to wallow in their own success. (Anybody really need another AC/DC album? Anybody know why the Sex Pistols are touring again?) But the criticism of progressive rock seems to break down into "they did something I don't like" and "they made an effort", neither of which seem like particularly unique or unforgivable crimes.

When will you americans learn. Like alot of things, you took a concept and got it WRONG. There is no such thing as American Punk. They were either early beginings of hardcore (Black Flag, et al), or "metal" (Misfits), but punk it is not.

I do appologise for the interviewer in this audio. She's shiat.

ausjc:

When will you americans learn. Like alot of things, you took a concept and got it WRONG. There is no such thing as American Punk. They were either early beginings of hardcore (Black Flag, et al), or "metal" (Misfits), but punk it is not.


Wait... you're referring to Black Flag and the Misfits as the beginning of American punk? Don't think so. And I could swear that there was a pretty healthy punk scene brewing up in NYC before things started happening in the UK.

ausjc: When will you americans learn. Like alot of things, you took a concept and got it WRONG. There is no such thing as American Punk. They were either early beginings of hardcore (Black Flag, et al), or "metal" (Misfits), but punk it is not.


Pffft.

ausjcWhen will you americans learn. Like alot of things, you took a concept and got it WRONG. There is no such thing as American Punk. They were either early beginings of hardcore (Black Flag, et al), or "metal" (Misfits), but punk it is not.

Wrong. Americans created the concept. The UK "punk" scene began because the Ramones toured England.
And to anyone interested in discovering the early days of punk rock:skip the Sex Pistols. They are a cynical fabrication of their manager, Malcolm McClaren, and a total rip-off of the New York Dolls, a band he briefly (and ineptly) managed. Trying to understand punk by listening to the Pistols is like studying Beetlemania through the work of the Monkees.

skeeterjennings:

ausjcWhen will you americans learn. Like alot of things, you took a concept and got it WRONG. There is no such thing as American Punk. They were either early beginings of hardcore (Black Flag, et al), or "metal" (Misfits), but punk it is not.

Wrong. Americans created the concept. The UK "punk" scene began because the Ramones toured England.
And to anyone interested in discovering the early days of punk rock:skip the Sex Pistols. They are a cynical fabrication of their manager, Malcolm McClaren, and a total rip-off of the New York Dolls, a band he briefly (and ineptly) managed. Trying to understand punk by listening to the Pistols is like studying Beetlemania through the work of the Monkees.


I think you underestimate the importance of the Pistols, no matter how they did or didn't come into being. And a "total rip-off" of the Dolls? Only to the extent that Malcolm wanted another band after his brief work with them.

DrBenway:I think you underestimate the importance of the Pistols, no matter how they did or didn't come into being. And a "total rip-off" of the Dolls? Only to the extent that Malcolm wanted another band after his brief work with them.

I respectfully disagree. The Pistols are important in the sense of the hype and outrage created around them, and frightening a lot of blue hairs, but that's about it. And I stand by the rip-off comment: go back and listen to the Dolls. Yeah, Malcolm didn't hire a piano player, but otherwise they stick to the Doll's playbook.

/Love yer handle, btw. For what its worth, Mr.Burroughs told me his favorite punk album was Nuggets.

skeeterjennings:

DrBenway:I think you underestimate the importance of the Pistols, no matter how they did or didn't come into being. And a "total rip-off" of the Dolls? Only to the extent that Malcolm wanted another band after his brief work with them.

I respectfully disagree. The Pistols are important in the sense of the hype and outrage created around them, and frightening a lot of blue hairs, but that's about it. And I stand by the rip-off comment: go back and listen to the Dolls. Yeah, Malcolm didn't hire a piano player, but otherwise they stick to the Doll's playbook.

/Love yer handle, btw. For what its worth, Mr.Burroughs told me his favorite punk album was Nuggets.


If nothing else, an awful lot of other bands were started on their account (I mention Joy Division below in regards to Burroughs, but they and other Manchester bands, for instance, were inspired to get together after seeing the Pistols), so there's that, and in general the attention they attracted pulled a lot of people into that scene. And I can't say I hear that much of the Dolls in the Pistols -- to my thinking, the attitude was just so much different from one to the other, and some of the Pistols songs had more of an anthemic quality. There's a connection there, I'll grant you, but I just don't see it as complete as you note.

Don't know if you've seen the recent Joy Division documentary, but there's a really funny bit Peter Hook tells about Ian Curtis trying to get a free book from Burroughs in Paris. Burroughs response, unfortunately for Ian, was a very curt "fark off, kid." When did you meet him, anyway?

HappyHarryHardOn: get this album immediately, another precursor of punk

You are 100% correct -- Joey Ramone was a HUGE Dictators fan. You can listen to "Master Race Rock" and hear where "Blitzkrieg Bop" came from.

Punk fans, go to Manitoba's on Avenue B when you are in NYC -- Handsome Dick himself will greet you, and he has the best collection of punk rock photos all over the walls.

ausjc: When will you americans learn. Like alot of things, you took a concept and got it WRONG. There is no such thing as American Punk. They were either early beginings of hardcore (Black Flag, et al), or "metal" (Misfits), but punk it is not.

You just took this thread's title from Pontus.

/ and didn't you mean "Pontius"?

skeeterjennings: Wrong. Americans created the concept. The UK "punk" scene began because the Ramones toured England.

Sorry, i am the world's biggest Ramones fan, but this is factually incorrect. The Pistols were gigging and the scene was going in London before teh July 4, 1976 London debut of the Ramones.

skeeterjennings: And to anyone interested in discovering the early days of punk rock:skip the Sex Pistols. They are a cynical fabrication of their manager, Malcolm McClaren

Teh regulars in here know I have de-bunked this many, many times. It's not true.

skeeterjennings: and a total rip-off of the New York Dolls

Well there you have something of a point.

skeeterjennings: I respectfully disagree. The Pistols are important in the sense of the hype and outrage created around them, and frightening a lot of blue hairs, but that's about it. And I stand by the rip-off comment: go back and listen to the Dolls. Yeah, Malcolm didn't hire a piano player, but otherwise they stick to the Doll's playbook.

Sorry, Skeeter, but the Pistols were practically solely responsible for everything that happened in the UK after them, punk-wise. Hell there wouldn't even have been a Joy Division if they had not played Manchester.

HappyHarryHardOn: "Psychotic Reactions & Carburator Dung": I dont care which book you show me about rock music, there is none that even comes close.

None.

Two things about that book:

1. It contains the single greatest opening line to a concert review ever written: "So we decided to get farked up and go see a Kraftwerk concert."

2. His long-running battle with Lou Reed over Metal Machine Music. In terms of the great rock feuds, this is right up there with Lennon vs McCartney while the Beatles were breaking up.

It's a great book and every serious rock fan should have a copy.

Gangway Fathead: As an aside, if you're into This Sort of Thing, Legs McNeil put together a book called "Please Kill Me" about the birth and self-immolation of the punk "movement." It's extremely NY centric, and told as an oral history. It's a quick read and gives - I imagine - a pretty first hand take on the whole thing.

That's good book - I liked Legs' work and was sorry when he apparently abandoned writing about the music industry for writing about the porn industry.

Whether or not he coined the term "punk' will enliven bar conversations for years, I suspect.

OldManDownDRoad: Whether or not he coined the term "punk' will enliven bar conversations for years, I suspect.

He doesn't claim to have invented it as much as name the magazine which is largely credited with popularizing the word.

The word has been used to describe "Nuggets" style rock since the 60's, has been used by writers like Dave Marsh and Lester, and even bands themselves. Suicide was releasing flyers describing themselves as 'punk rock' since 1972.

HappyHarryHardOn: Captain Beefheart? He stole from Howlin wolf and Bo Diddley

EVERYBODY stole from Howlin Wolf and Bo Diddley!

/ oh sorry, that was probably your point.