... and you've just found the Internet?

No, I'm Bill Curtis.

If those people hadn't been away from the Homeland, consorting with foreigners and terrorists like they were, they wouldn't have been in that predicament, now would they?

Isn't this what my tax dollars pay the NSA to do? I'm not sure they have any other reason to exist.

well Congratulations America. NOW you have a Government that listens to The People.

Non-story, read about Echelon. Any non-domestic US communication was accessible to the NSA for any reason at any time and has been for many years

Among those under surveillance were workers from nongovernmental organizations such as Doctors Without Borders, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and the United Nations Development Programme, as well as journalists staying in Baghdad

In other words: Liberals (or those perceived by the Bush administration to be liberals).

Could not be reached for comment

Hiro's Protagonist: Non-story, read about Echelon. Any non-domestic US communication was accessible to the NSA for any reason at any time and has been for many years

I'm sure they've enjoyed listening to my printer troubleshooting phone calls from China. I hope they went as crazy as I did on some of them.

theorellior: If those people hadn't been away from the Homeland, consorting with foreigners and terrorists like they were, they wouldn't have been in that predicament, now would they?
oh come on! you can do better than that!

2/10

You lost points for not mentioning the "Liberal Media."

notwithstanding United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18, or USSID 18 -- an NSA rule that bars overseas surveillance of Americans without authorization and probable cause.

Which is why they traded favours with allies to do it for them.

It's a sad day in America when even our own troops are the subject of scrutiny and suspicion.

Something similar just happened to me recently.

And before someone pops up calling shenanigans or whatever, let me say up front that I will happily provide the email address and phone number of the FBI agent who staked out my house and eventually spoke with me. You can ask him yourself.

I lead pretty much the most boring, innocuous, blameless life of anyone I know. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

Two comments: 1) Most phones on bases I've been on have "Use of this phone constitutes consent to monitoring," so I always just assume that whatever I'm saying is not private; 2) According to this (new window) it is legal to "collect" on US persons outside the United States as long as the Attorney General approves it. The issue then is whether it is legal for the Attorney General to apply this rule to ALL US persons instead of just specific ones.

fyrewede: I lead pretty much the most boring, innocuous, blameless life of anyone I know. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

Everyone is within six degrees of separation of a terrorist. Pervasive information gathering will see all those links, and a paranoid mentality will highlight them with a red marker.

With 6 years of this, combined with the 700 Billion grab... tell me again how the Republicans are protecting you from the Democrat's socialism and Constitution-shredding?

Hiro's Protagonist: Non-story, read about Echelon. Any non-domestic US communication was accessible to the NSA for any reason at any time and has been for many years

You do realize that having the ability to listen to conversations and having the legal authority to do so are two seperate things, don't you?

"I am Michael Caine"

I'm Bill Curtis and for some reason, all my PC laptops run OS X.

jerkychew: I'm Bill Curtis and for some reason, all my PC laptops run OS X.

Probably because Bill Curtis got fed up with AT&T's stupid ass "3G Watcher" program you have to install on Windows to make the cards work... when you can just plug the card into a Mac OS X system and it works immediately, with no drivers/installs/etc.

Just sayin'.

/off topic

This is really a non-story and only talked about because Republicans are in office. If Obama wins all the mechanisms in place will remain and funding will continue and given a raise each year. But we will stop hearing about it.

Eavesdropping on the world was taken up a notch during the Clinton years and the Bush administration simply continued the trend.

Echelon, the grandfather of the electronic spy game, was formed in 1950 under Truman. Each administration that followed never made any move other than to increase funding as computers and new communication technologies were developed.

The whole damn thing is legal because there is no longer a human listening nor recordings made until a listening computer hears certain words or phases. Get on a phone, any phone, and say enough key words and trigger a human listener. A guy telling a friend about getting "bombed" and "killing" off a "dozen shooters" at the "Brooklyn Bridge" Bar could well have a human listening very quickly. The listener would just as quick tune out and erase any recording once it was realized that it was just another bar story.

That some panic over the idea of someone listening to every call is silly. There are something like a trillion calls made daily, and that is just the Obama campaign. There are not enough people in the US to listen to even a small fraction of these calls.

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"

Nughuffer: it is legal to "collect" on US persons outside the United States

Page 10 of your clearance paperwork expressly provides permission to collect from any and all sources.

So, anybody with a US clearance has already given permission.

george bush is a dooooosh

Dinki: Hiro's Protagonist: Non-story, read about Echelon. Any non-domestic US communication was accessible to the NSA for any reason at any time and has been for many years

You do realize that having the ability to listen to conversations and having the legal authority to do so are two seperate things, don't you?

Do you actually believe the NSA and CIA ask for warrants?

They dont care about your Swiss bank accounts
They could give a crap about your mistress in Prague.
They really don't give a crap about your vacations to the red light district in bangcock

They are looking for subversive shiat that might get someone killed, and they have been dong it for decades.
There are enough cray supercomputers in Arizona processing the calls to fill a sports stadium.

ensign_noname: There are enough cray supercomputers in Arizona processing the calls to fill a sports stadium.

Didn't they contract it out to Google?

Cosmic Crab: fyrewede: I lead pretty much the most boring, innocuous, blameless life of anyone I know. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

Everyone is within six degrees of separation of a terrorist. Pervasive information gathering will see all those links, and a paranoid mentality will highlight them with a red marker.

Especially when you're meeting with Dennis Kucinich and are heavily involved in politics, which is a little less "boring" than it sounds.

ensign_noname: Dinki: Hiro's Protagonist: Non-story, read about Echelon. Any non-domestic US communication was accessible to the NSA for any reason at any time and has been for many years

You do realize that having the ability to listen to conversations and having the legal authority to do so are two seperate things, don't you?

Do you actually believe the NSA and CIA ask for warrants?

They dont care about your Swiss bank accounts
They could give a crap about your mistress in Prague.
They really don't give a crap about your vacations to the red light district in bangcock

They are looking for subversive shiat that might get someone killed, and they have been dong it for decades.
There are enough cray supercomputers in Arizona processing the calls to fill a sports stadium.

You really believe they're looking for subversive sh*t that will get somebody killed? Just like the Nixon years, I believe the Bush administration has been tracking anything having to do with elections, and groups and individuals they consider "unfriendly towards U.S. interests"...like outspoken LIBRULS. Where does anyone get the idea that government is adept at doing anything in response to terrorism or finances? What proof could you possibly come up with that any of this surveillance has been used for the purpose of protecting America?

Hiro's Protagonist
Non-story, read about Echelon. Any non-domestic US communication was accessible to the NSA for any reason at any time and has been for many years

That's simply not true. Read the article, and research US Signals Intelligence Directive 18 for yourself.

But I thought it was OK that NSA is doing this, now that Obama voted to give everyone inmunity for it.

I just assume that any conversation I have online or over the phone is monitored. It's sad but that's the assumption I work off.

Linux_Yes: well Congratulations America. NOW you have a Government that listens to The People.

Mavericky!

It is not wiretapping if the calls come through a military exchange.


The military provides soldiers with envelopes that can be closed twice to send their letters home, then it only opens the ones it can't read by photo-xray. What made them think they were gonna have any privacy on the phone or internet?

fyrewede: It's a sad day in America when even our own troops are the subject of scrutiny and suspicion.

Something similar just happened to me recently.

And before someone pops up calling shenanigans or whatever, let me say up front that I will happily provide the email address and phone number of the FBI agent who staked out my house and eventually spoke with me. You can ask him yourself.

I lead pretty much the most boring, innocuous, blameless life of anyone I know. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

When do you sleep?

prjindigo: The military provides soldiers with envelopes that can be closed twice to send their letters home, then it only opens the ones it can't read by photo-xray. What made them think they were gonna have any privacy on the phone or internet?

Do they give them special pens, or can they read normal ballpoint type things?

/Just curious, you understand
//wait, there's somebody at the door...

America died with the Clinton Era. Budget surplus, and money coming out the wazoo with our pets.com stocks. Nothing to worry about but Napster, and the Y2K bug. We had it made.

Then GWB came in, and in 8 short years, has literally left our country in ruins.

SimonSaid

This is really a non-story and only talked about because Republicans are in office. If Obama wins all the mechanisms in place will remain and funding will continue and given a raise each year. But we will stop hearing about it.

Very true

Eavesdropping on the world was taken up a notch during the Clinton years and the Bush administration simply continued the trend.

Also very true

The whole damn thing is legal because there is no longer a human listening nor recordings made until a listening computer hears certain words or phases. Get on a phone, any phone, and say enough key words and trigger a human listener.

Yes, but I'd add that as far as human listening goes:

Both ends of the communication domestic - need warrant/probable cause by Constitution

Both ends foreign - don't need warrant/probable cause

One end domestic, the other foreign - some disagreement, but legal consensus is that you don't need warrant by the same principle that Customs/TSA have always been able to search people/ships entering or exiting the country w/o warrant or probable cause. However, ordinary statute requires FISA warrant in these cases if one of the parties is a US citizen.

glenlivid

Just like the Nixon years, I believe the Bush administration has been tracking anything having to do with elections, and groups and individuals they consider "unfriendly towards U.S. interests"...like outspoken LIBRULS.

Michael Moore, Stephen Colbert, Keith Olbermann, Chomsky, etc. have all been operating for years to decades without anything happening to them, or even any evidence that the Bush admin has been monitoring them, your paranoia to the contrary. Some leftie waskos do have significant links to terrorists, some are terrorists. They should be monitored, same as some right wing wackos are monitored for the same reason.

grotto_man: SimonSaid

This is really a non-story and only talked about because Republicans are in office. If Obama wins all the mechanisms in place will remain and funding will continue and given a raise each year. But we will stop hearing about it.

Very true

Eavesdropping on the world was taken up a notch during the Clinton years and the Bush administration simply continued the trend.

Also very true

The whole damn thing is legal because there is no longer a human listening nor recordings made until a listening computer hears certain words or phases. Get on a phone, any phone, and say enough key words and trigger a human listener.

Yes, but I'd add that as far as human listening goes:

Both ends of the communication domestic - need warrant/probable cause by Constitution

Both ends foreign - don't need warrant/probable cause

One end domestic, the other foreign - some disagreement, but legal consensus is that you don't need warrant by the same principle that Customs/TSA have always been able to search people/ships entering or exiting the country w/o warrant or probable cause. However, ordinary statute requires FISA warrant in these cases if one of the parties is a US citizen.

glenlivid

Just like the Nixon years, I believe the Bush administration has been tracking anything having to do with elections, and groups and individuals they consider "unfriendly towards U.S. interests"...like outspoken LIBRULS.

Michael Moore, Stephen Colbert, Keith Olbermann, Chomsky, etc. have all been operating for years to decades without anything happening to them, or even any evidence that the Bush admin has been monitoring them, your paranoia to the contrary. Some leftie waskos do have significant links to terrorists, some are terrorists. They should be monitored, same as some right wing wackos are monitored for the same reason.

First of all, the wiretapping did not start under Clinton, and did not start because of 9/11; it started a few weeks after Bush took office.

Secondly, it's interesting you mentioned Michael Moore, because according to White House insiders, he's definitely on the enemies list; it's a bit hard to just openly "mess with" public figures, though. The people that have been openly messed with were journalists covering the Iraq war unfavorably, and direct political enemies like Joe Wilson and his wife.

I could sit here all day and post link after link about how the White House has used illegal tactics against thousands of people and groups, and used the blanket of secrecy to get away with it. Were they using spying techniques to their advantage during the 2004 election? We'll never know for sure, but from the laundry list of crap they've pulled so far, there is no reason to assume otherwise.

(...but something tells me, you like the taste of Kool Aid)

glenlivid: First of all, the wiretapping did not start under Clinton, and did not start because of 9/11; it started a few weeks after Bush took office.

Um, what planet are you from? Or are you only 15 years old and think the political world started in 2000? There was wiretapping going on continuously during at least the last half of the 20th century. This is well documented. In fact the term "enemies list" itself precedes Bush's election by at least 30 years. To say it only started a matter of weeks after W took office is stupid, ignorant, or malicious.

Poochner: glenlivid: First of all, the wiretapping did not start under Clinton, and did not start because of 9/11; it started a few weeks after Bush took office.

Um, what planet are you from? Or are you only 15 years old and think the political world started in 2000? There was wiretapping going on continuously during at least the last half of the 20th century. This is well documented. In fact the term "enemies list" itself precedes Bush's election by at least 30 years. To say it only started a matter of weeks after W took office is stupid, ignorant, or malicious.

What planet am I from? Am I 15 years old? What was the problem that caused congress to grant immunity to telecoms if this is just old news, you stupid fegging asshat?

Administrations have always had the ability to wiretap, WITH A WARRANT, but what this administration did was unprecedented: It wanted complete and total access, and the ability to do whatever it wanted with the data, all without the approval of Congress. Not sneaking a wiretap on a line or two, but tapping into the telecoms own computer banks. Only one company initially said no, and that was Quest, who was "punished" until they finally did agree.

Look it up, dickhead.

glenlivid: Poochner: glenlivid: First of all, the wiretapping did not start under Clinton, and did not start because of 9/11; it started a few weeks after Bush took office.

Administrations have always had the ability to wiretap, WITH A WARRANT, but what this administration did was unprecedented: It wanted complete and total access, and the ability to do whatever it wanted with the data, all without the approval of Congress. Not sneaking a wiretap on a line or two, but tapping into the telecoms own computer banks. Only one company initially said no, and that was Quest, who was "punished" until they finally did agree.

Look it up, dickhead.

QFT

i've found a misspeeling

and it's kurtis

glenlivid: Administrations have always had the ability to wiretap, WITH A WARRANT, but what this administration did was unprecedented: It wanted complete and total access, and the ability to do whatever it wanted with the data, all without the approval of Congress. Not sneaking a wiretap on a line or two, but tapping into the telecoms own computer banks. Only one company initially said no, and that was Quest, who was "punished" until they finally did agree.

Look it up, dickhead.

Some people get really touchy, and don't read. Warrantless wiretapping has been going on forever, just on a much smaller scale. I got the (perhaps mistaken) impression that your outburst following grotto_man's post implied you believed that Nixon had not engaged in illegal wiretaps. I wasn't trying to say the scale hadn't exploded under Bush. As a matter of fact, on re-reading my post, I didn't say that. Ashcroft was a douche. The "Patriot Act" was one of the biggest rollbacks of civil liberties for normal Americans in history. The Bush administration has been responsible for a vast expansion of government monitoring, both domestic and overseas. It may be that there was finally an administration that had the desire at a time when they now also had the technological capabilities to do a massive warrantless tap system, rather than the old-fashioned "van parked across the street" routine (because as all film buffs know, taps with a warrant are done at the CO :-). But to say that illegal wiretaps didn't begin until after Bush came into office ignores a lot of history that shows otherwise.