And endless sea of entitlements and welfare for everyone!!! YEA!!! I'm just glad that if I can't pay my mortgage, I can sign up for mortgage welfare too and nobody can kick me out of my house either. Suck it , evil banking corporation!! suck it long and hard!!

/not submitter

GaryPDX: And endless sea of entitlements and welfare for everyone!!! YEA!!! I'm just glad that if I can't pay my mortgage, I can sign up for mortgage welfare too and nobody can kick me out of my house either. Suck it , evil banking corporation!! suck it long and hard!!

/not submitter

Take your aspirin today Gary, you're headed for a heart attack.

cameroncrazy1984: GaryPDX: And endless sea of entitlements and welfare for everyone!!! YEA!!! I'm just glad that if I can't pay my mortgage, I can sign up for mortgage welfare too and nobody can kick me out of my house either. Suck it , evil banking corporation!! suck it long and hard!!

/not submitter

Take your aspirin today Gary, you're headed for a heart attack.

Already had a mild one, 6 weeks ago and had stints installed. I'm all fixed now. I feel like I'm 30 years old again. I walked 5 miles today, fast. Yes, I took my aspirin this morning. Thank you for your concern.

I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?

GaryPDX: I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?


Iceland

GaryPDX: Already had a mild one, 6 weeks ago and had stints installed.

Stents, plural? Eek. I'm sorry, Gary. You need to slow down, my friend. Even I only got one. Take care of yourself. Sorry for the threadjack.

GaryPDX: I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?

Money's obsolete, Gary. People are just starting to wake up to the fact that it's all just faith based anyway when they see trillions of dollars vanish in a few days even though nobody really did anything real. People didn't stop working. Houses themselves didn't collapse. And nobody came through and destroyed physical possessions. Hell, nobody even came along and stole filthy lucre. Money simply disappeared in a puff of skepticism.

Money was a useful fiction that replaced the barter system. Now that that fiction is being swept away, we'll move into a truly modern system of what used to be called "economics".

In the meantime, I'll help anyone who wants it to get rid of their fictional ducats. Just transfer it all over to me and I'll release you from the hold your faith has burdened you with.

I hope this welfare stuff runs deep. I'm still trying to figure out how we are going to fill the heating oil tank. You know the price did double this year...

MorrisBird: GaryPDX: Already had a mild one, 6 weeks ago and had stints installed.

Stents, plural? Eek. I'm sorry, Gary. You need to slow down, my friend. Even I only got one. Take care of yourself. Sorry for the threadjack.

I dodged a bullet..I was paying attention. two stents for one blockage at the intersection of the LAD and the Diagonal. No other damage or blockage, no muscle damage either. I'm only taking aspirin and a beta blocker. I do exercise 2-3 hours a day. I really do feel like I'm 30 years old again. It's kinda neat..I got "fixed". I don't smoke or drink either and my diet is better than good. I'm a lot better now, that's for sure.

/back to regularly scheduled snark-a-thon

weezbo: In the meantime, I'll help anyone who wants it to get rid of their fictional ducats. Just transfer it all over to me and I'll release you from the hold your faith has burdened you with.

I'm going to pan for gold in eastern Oregon. It's profitable when gold is over 800 an ounce.

weezbo: Money was a useful fiction that replaced the barter system. Now that that fiction is being swept away, we'll move into a truly modern system of what used to be called "economics".

Without "money" how can I possibly keep score? How can I know if I'm a better, bigger, more masculine man than my next-door-neighbor?

Oh, wait, I own guns and he's a frenetic anti-gunner.

Nevermind.

/...kidding
//...or am I?

From the beginning Congress and Bush said the "bailout" was only the beginning of the fix. I kinda skimmed the article and wasn't particularly impressed with their plans- I think they should try and get more creative- but I don't think any of us should be surprised. We have a home foreclosure crisis that has been brewing for over a year now, that's putting many families on the streets, somethings will have to be done.

dramboxf: Without "money" how can I possibly keep score?

Dur. With a facebook friends list, of course. Otherwise, Paris Hilton might have to develop some actual skills and we can't have that.

sloppy shoes: From the beginning Congress and Bush said the "bailout" was only the beginning of the fix. I kinda skimmed the article and wasn't particularly impressed with their plans- I think they should try and get more creative- but I don't think any of us should be surprised. We have a home foreclosure crisis that has been brewing for over a year now, that's putting many families on the streets, somethings will have to be done.

One thing that has to be done is everyone needs to dial back their standard of living. Everyone, including the government, has been living large, for too long, on credit that they have no means of paying back.

Don't they know that only the rich and large corporations deserve welfare?

GaryPDX: One thing that has to be done is everyone needs to dial back their standard of living. Everyone, including the government, has been living large, for too long, on credit that they have no means of paying back.

I would agree.

However, part of that is due to the decline in real wages and the loss of many "extra" benefits. The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions, but in general increase wages for workers across the country.

GaryPDX: I'm going to pan for gold in eastern Oregon. It's profitable when gold is over 800 an ounce.

Feel free. A major breakthrough will be announced in 2012 to coincide with the end of this cycle on the Mayan calendar (no, not because the Mayans knew anything, just because it's a good marketing hook for a world changing event of this magnitude). My guess is it's something to do with either a damned near free energy system (based on work in the electro-gravic or gravo-magnetic spectrums) or nanotechnology. Or a combination of the two. Gold will still carry some status value, since elemental manipulation won't actually be available for probably another fifty years, but it won't be able to purchase goods and services.

Anyway, the upshot of the whole thing is that people may as well just give all of their silly little money to me and I'll use it to mulch my garden.

sloppy shoes: However, part of that is due to the decline in real wages and the loss of many "extra" benefits. The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions, but in general increase wages for workers across the country.

Sending home 25 million illegal foreigners would do the trick on wages. Like that will ever happen.

GaryPDX: Sending home 25 million illegal foreigners would do the trick on wages. Like that will ever happen.

Pshaw. Think bigger. We just need to remove women from the work force again. Except, of course, in education, secretarial, food service, and stewardess positions.

GaryPDX: sloppy shoes: However, part of that is due to the decline in real wages and the loss of many "extra" benefits. The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions, but in general increase wages for workers across the country.

Sending home 25 million illegal foreigners would do the trick on wages. Like that will ever happen.

That's not the answer.
1. Logistically that is impossible
2. They do provide for the American economy
3. Immigration reform and crackdown on employers would be better
4. The problem isn't necessarily an abundance of workers, it's that we don't create, nurture and sustain economic systems in America that promote the worker: at least 5 people will respond to this post and tell me that CEO's deserve the vast millions of dollars more than the average employee for doing in the grand scheme of things very trivial work and embodying very little personal risk. It's a scam.

sloppy shoes: The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions

Yes, just to make damn sure GM dies and the rest of American industry moves offshore.

sloppy shoes: GaryPDX: sloppy shoes: However, part of that is due to the decline in real wages and the loss of many "extra" benefits. The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions, but in general increase wages for workers across the country.

Sending home 25 million illegal foreigners would do the trick on wages. Like that will ever happen.

That's not the answer.
1. Logistically that is impossible
2. They do provide for the American economy
3. Immigration reform and crackdown on employers would be better
4. The problem isn't necessarily an abundance of workers, it's that we don't create, nurture and sustain economic systems in America that promote the worker: at least 5 people will respond to this post and tell me that CEO's deserve the vast millions of dollars more than the average employee for doing in the grand scheme of things very trivial work and embodying very little personal risk. It's a scam.

I agree but how do we do that when we tax corporations who employ people to the moon, and more after the election, and they move their operations overseas?

flucto: sloppy shoes: The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions

Yes, just to make damn sure GM dies and the rest of American industry moves offshore.

You do realize that one of the reasons GM is dieing is that employees can no longer afford to buy the products that their company makes. Moving production down to Mexico created a legion of workers that didn't care about GM.

/Now there were other reasons to, but the government should have broken them up through anti-trust. It was too bad that the car companies chose lobbies to protect their interests rather than innovation.

flucto: sloppy shoes: The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions

Yes, just to make damn sure GM dies and the rest of American industry moves offshore.

I was getting around to making that point as well..:)

sloppy shoes: You do realize that one of the reasons GM is dieing is that employees can no longer afford to buy the products that their company makes. Moving production down to Mexico created a legion of workers that didn't care about GM.

Gee..ya think the highest corporate taxes on the planet has anything to do with that?

sloppy shoes: You do realize that one of the reasons GM is dieing is that employees can no longer afford to buy the products that their company makes. Moving production down to Mexico created a legion of workers that didn't care about GM.

I think it's mostly because there are too many superior products. But the point remains, if the government takes action to strengthen unions' rights, companies will even more facilities off shore. I'm happy to blame management for most things but I can't see how making unions more powerful will keep jobs in the US and that sure doesn't solve anything.

Given the almost zero level of leaks from the Obama campaign it would be presumptuous of anyone to read tea leaves when they're all drinking coffee.

GaryPDX: Gee..ya think the highest corporate taxes on the planet has anything to do with that?

Gee, you think giving oil companies billions of dollars in tax breaks when they're making record profits has anything to do with that?

Highest taxes on paper maybe, but good luck getting them to actually pay them.

GaryPDX: sloppy shoes: From the beginning Congress and Bush said the "bailout" was only the beginning of the fix. I kinda skimmed the article and wasn't particularly impressed with their plans- I think they should try and get more creative- but I don't think any of us should be surprised. We have a home foreclosure crisis that has been brewing for over a year now, that's putting many families on the streets, somethings will have to be done.

One thing that has to be done is everyone needs to dial back their standard of living. Everyone, including the government, has been living large, for too long, on credit that they have no means of paying back.

Can't we just stent the economy? Seems to work for people that live too large for too long on bad physical credit.

Geez Gary, take care of yourself, keep up the exercise. Good health to you man.

cameroncrazy1984: GaryPDX: Gee..ya think the highest corporate taxes on the planet has anything to do with that?

Gee, you think giving oil companies billions of dollars in tax breaks when they're making record profits has anything to do with that?

Highest taxes on paper maybe, but good luck getting them to actually pay them.

Well duhh. Taxes are a cost of doing business just like paying for the lights to be on. It ALL gets passed to the consumer as a "cost of sale". Raising taxes will only be passed on unless you want to completly alter a little thing called the GAP. General Accounting Practices.

SO, the consumer pays the price, period. You want lower prices? Overseas.

flucto: sloppy shoes: You do realize that one of the reasons GM is dieing is that employees can no longer afford to buy the products that their company makes. Moving production down to Mexico created a legion of workers that didn't care about GM.

I think it's mostly because there are too many superior products. But the point remains, if the government takes action to strengthen unions' rights, companies will even more facilities off shore. I'm happy to blame management for most things but I can't see how making unions more powerful will keep jobs in the US and that sure doesn't solve anything.

Sure superior products is a factor in the equation. I said that the American companies relied on their political lobby for years to survive competition. However, notice that the Japanese companies in America aren't unionized- allowing for higher profits.

The government should no longer take an anti-union stance. We need to mandate unions for many corporations in America- not government run, but government backed. Unions provide a good economic base and strong growth. It's sort of like trickle-up economics- People at the bottom spend more and create a vibrant, flowing local economy that grows quite significantly over time. However, bottlenecking the wages at the top has a very negative effect- the poor remain poor, often getting poorer, education continues to rise, communities crumble, and money flows off shore as investors increasingly see oppurtunities else where. It's robbing the American worker.

Part of the reason many communities are falling over time is that real wages have gone down on average, property values have gone down, the price of education has risen while the ability to pay for it has decreased. Over time this gradually destablelizes the overall economy.

sloppy shoes: However, bottlenecking the wages at the top has a very negative effect- the poor remain poor, often getting poorer, education continues to rise, communities crumble, and money flows off shore as investors increasingly see oppurtunities else where. It's robbing the American worker.

Ain't globalization grand? This is the price for globalization. It's a balancing of standard of living as the economics centralize on a global scale. America's wealth must be depleted to bring up a balance with other countries. Pretty soon labor must cost the same globally or "it's not fair, boo hoo".

sloppy shoes: mandate unions = death to industry in America. Unions are a toxic poison, not a panacea.

Good idea or not, this is an old proposal. As soon as indicators went negative Nancy Pelosi started pushing variants of this idea. In the recent past the idea of reacting to a downturn with a stimulus was a bipartisan thing. It was the details that would be argued over. This and the bailout package are still under ten percent of GNP which might make sense for a urgent response. This about is still totally dwarfed by the three trillion spent on an unnecessary and unproductive war in Iraq.

GaryPDX: sloppy shoes: However, bottlenecking the wages at the top has a very negative effect- the poor remain poor, often getting poorer, education continues to rise, communities crumble, and money flows off shore as investors increasingly see oppurtunities else where. It's robbing the American worker.

Ain't globalization grand? This is the price for globalization. It's a balancing of standard of living as the economics centralize on a global scale. America's wealth must be depleted to bring up a balance with other countries. Pretty soon labor must cost the same globally or "it's not fair, boo hoo".

Globalization isn't bad. In fact, Economic theory quite rightly points out that it is beneficial. There are a couple of problems currently- our standards, laws, and economic institutions were far ahead of most of the world- thus as the world globalizes we have much to lose while many of the poorest countries have much to gain.

The problem America had was that we chose to globalize corporations rather than the American productivity. We entered into NAFTA at a historical low in worker strength and we continue to abandon them. We need to gain American government back and put it forth towards the people. We also need to massively educate our population so that their production is not undervalued compared to the global market.

GaryPDX: cameroncrazy1984: GaryPDX: Already had a mild one, 6 weeks ago and had stints installed. I'm all fixed now. I feel like I'm 30 years old again. I walked 5 miles today, fast. Yes, I took my aspirin this morning. Thank you for your concern.

threadjack: Dude, you must have ice water in your veins to hang in the Politics tab during the silly season. All hail Gary - he's a farking stud.

On topic: Since I didn't get a check last time and won't get one this time (oh, the joys of having a high income), I would really prefer a plain old fashioned tax break rather than paying to fill other people's gas tanks a few times over. kthnxbye

/still voting Obama, just don't agree with all of his initiatives

sloppy shoes:
The problem America had was that we chose to globalize corporations rather than the American productivity. We entered into NAFTA at a historical low in worker strength and we continue to abandon them. We need to gain American government back and put it forth towards the people. We also need to massively educate our population so that their production is not undervalued compared to the global market.

I can agree with that much. I have no problem trading products with the world. Each country sets up their own shops. But that's not how it's working. I don't like NAFTA either or globalistion as it now stands but you're not going to force corporations to operate here when it just flat out costs too much. Labor is one of the top big ones. What your saying costs too much internally and to the consumer. It's cheaper elsewhere. You can only fix this by cutting costs to the corporations and tax their overseas operations heavier. They have to be enticed back, not brought back in leg irons.

GaryPDX: I can agree with that much. I have no problem trading products with the world. Each country sets up their own shops. But that's not how it's working. I don't like NAFTA either or globalistion as it now stands but you're not going to force corporations to operate here when it just flat out costs too much. Labor is one of the top big ones. What your saying costs too much internally and to the consumer. It's cheaper elsewhere. You can only fix this by cutting costs to the corporations and tax their overseas operations heavier. They have to be enticed back, not brought back in leg irons.

From everybody I know in various industries they seem to consistently tell me that the reduction in costs companies realize is much less than they perceived with significant unrealizable financial costs. Further, if we simply promoted a tighter wage scale then companies wouldn't have to strive to reduce costs so much.

Maybe Unions aren't the best answer. I'm not necessarily a policy geek. Unions do have a good history though, despite some of their perceived failings. The answer is clearly to promote wages amongst the lower employees and less wages amongst the top.

/off to bed.

sloppy shoes: GaryPDX: sloppy shoes: However, part of that is due to the decline in real wages and the loss of many "extra" benefits. The government needs put in place policies that possibly restore unions, but in general increase wages for workers across the country.

Sending home 25 million illegal foreigners would do the trick on wages. Like that will ever happen.

That's not the answer.
1. Logistically that is impossible
2. They do provide for the American economy
3. Immigration reform and crackdown on employers would be better
4. The problem isn't necessarily an abundance of workers, it's that we don't create, nurture and sustain economic systems in America that promote the worker: at least 5 people will respond to this post and tell me that CEO's deserve the vast millions of dollars more than the average employee for doing in the grand scheme of things very trivial work and embodying very little personal risk. It's a scam.

"CEO's deserve the vast millions of dollars more than the average employee for doing in the grand scheme of things very trivial work and embodying very little personal risk."

/one down, four to go.

GaryPDX: I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?

Thank you for reminding me yet another reason why we need to kick the stalinistic fiscally irresponsible Republicans out of office. They have sold our entire country to China over the last 8 years.

Awesome!fark the republicans, this is what they get for wiretapping, invading a country based on a lie, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, outing a CIA agent, failing to get Osama, and using the 'terror alert' system to win a second term in office.

I say fark them twice, with a strap on covered in broken glass.

What's $150 billion on the pile? These days that sounds like practically nothing. Remember when Kerry said Iraq could possibly cost us $200 or $300 billion and they practically laughed him out of Washington in 2004?

I say tax the shiat out of the rich. Most of them got their money suckling at the teat of government subsidies in one way or the other. Spread it around.

Suck it up biatches.

You know, I actually heard Rush Limbaugh tell his audience yesterday that living beyond their means is what fuels the growth in the american economy. He's right, but he was also telling his audience that it was good for them to be living like that.

What in the holy living fark happened to the Fiscal Conservatism?

Exodus2001: I hope this welfare stuff runs deep. I'm still trying to figure out how we are going to fill the heating oil tank. You know the price did double this year...

Thanks goodness I felled two big trees on my lot and had one of my gas fireplaces converted to wood. Should be toasty.


//Used to haz heating oil, I feel for you

GaryPDX: I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?

No your boy Bush already maxed out our China Visa card.

Bill Frist: GaryPDX: I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?

Thank you for reminding me yet another reason why we need to kick the stalinistic fiscally irresponsible Republicans out of office. They have sold our entire country to China over the last 8 years.

You can't paint all Republicans in the nasty twisted funk of BushCo. They are mutant retarded offshoots of the Republican Party.

Pzo211: GaryPDX: I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?

No your boy Bush already maxed out our China Visa card.

I voted for Gore...lol.

GaryPDX: Bill Frist: GaryPDX: I wonder where the money for this happy package will come from? Anyone have any ideas? Will we be borrowing it from Sweden? Or China?

Thank you for reminding me yet another reason why we need to kick the stalinistic fiscally irresponsible Republicans out of office. They have sold our entire country to China over the last 8 years.

You can't paint all Republicans in the nasty twisted funk of BushCo. They are mutant retarded offshoots of the Republican Party.

Bush Sr and Reagan did the same shiat.

Republican voters might not like this kind of stuff, but Republican leadership has zero interest in fiscal responsibility. BushCo is far more representative of the Republican party than Ron paul

Third Day Mark: Suck it up biatches.

You know, I actually heard Rush Limbaugh tell his audience yesterday that living beyond their means is what fuels the growth in the american economy. He's right, but he was also telling his audience that it was good for them to be living like that.

What in the holy living fark happened to the Fiscal Conservatism?

No shiat. Living beyond your means may truly be good for the economy as a whole, but it rarely is good for the individual.

/Not surprised that Limbaugh is telling half-truths.