Too late for my parents, both of whom were killed thru hospital error. But good on 'em

Medicare prevents the hospitals from billing the Medicare patients for the cost of treating the nosocomial infections, but it doesn't prevent the hospitals from passing the cost of treatment on to the patients with private insurers.

Ahh yes. If hospitals did auto repair . . .

"Sorry, we ah, dropped an engine on your car's roof, it's gonna cost you another $5,000 for that oil change."

Yes, give hospitals yet another reason to ship off Grandpa and Grandma to a third-world-quality "convalescent care" joint ASAP.

Thanks, Dr. Nick.

Once they get paid to make you sick, they can just turn you away knowing that Medicare isn't going to pay them to fix you.

It's a win-win people.

Yep, once you drive all the hospitals out of business, we'll save all that medicare money for the taxpayers. Of course finding a provider will be your own problem.

Does not approve.

SchlingFocker: Medicare prevents the hospitals from billing the Medicare patients for the cost of treating the nosocomial infections, but it doesn't prevent the hospitals from passing the cost of treatment on to the patients with private insurers.

Fortunately, most private insurance companies will follow Medicare in this and refuse to pay.

jaylectricity: Once they get paid to make you sick, they can just turn you away knowing that Medicare isn't going to pay them to fix you.

It's a win-win people.

Exactly what I was thinking. They get sued either way, so why not cut the losses & run? After all, medicine IS an exact science, right?

It is about time they are held accountable for their mistakes.

/I miss my grandmother

Goimir: Ahh yes. If hospitals did auto repair . . .

Then every "undocumented worker" would bring their car in, get it fixed for free, and then drive off without paying their bill. Then when you get your car fixed they charge you to pay for the cars getting fixed for free. Of course, the auto repair shop would be open 24 hours a day, and would fix your car or at least a "mechanic" with 8+ years post-HS training would look at it within 24 hours.

well shiat, now how are they going to make any money?

Great. Now if their error makes you sicker, it'll be more cost effective to let you die.

Lafiel: SchlingFocker: Medicare prevents the hospitals from billing the Medicare patients for the cost of treating the nosocomial infections, but it doesn't prevent the hospitals from passing the cost of treatment on to the patients with private insurers.

Fortunately, most private insurance companies will follow Medicare in this and refuse to pay.

Which means they bill the patient directly. Altho some will skip that step and go right to collections. And some will even submit the same charges to different collection agencies.

/

I had surgery that went perfect but had three separate infections that damn near did me in. Nurses aides brought me infections - the worst I think was the two doses of C-diff (Clostridium difficile), a nasty explosive type of diarrhea. By the time you feel your butt clench it's too late. The pressure is so great that you feel as if you could hit a 10 inch spot on the far side of the 12' room. Then the nurses aides would come in and take my temperature and blood pressure without gown, foot covers, and gloves even though there was a sign on the door saying I was highly contagious. Mostly Third Worlders with minimal English language skills. They could barely answer basic questions and would have to call a nurse for anything more complicated than when are the meals arriving?

*RANT*
If the government takes over more of the medical care payouts and forces hospitals and doctors to hire even more less qualified staff that are willing to work for lower wages than experienced Americans with genuine degrees then you can expect even more of this in the future. We have it bad enough with the current members of the Weasel Clan (bean counters and their cousins, the lawyers and insurance providers) driving the medical cart now. Just wait for the bearaucrats, the Badgers and Ferrets, to start penny pinching even more and doling out your health benefits.
*/RANT*

CBob: Lafiel: SchlingFocker: Medicare prevents the hospitals from billing the Medicare patients for the cost of treating the nosocomial infections, but it doesn't prevent the hospitals from passing the cost of treatment on to the patients with private insurers.

Fortunately, most private insurance companies will follow Medicare in this and refuse to pay.

Which means they bill the patient directly. Altho some will skip that step and go right to collections. And some will even submit the same charges to different collection agencies.

/

IIRC Medicare will not allow the direct patient billing of a nosocomial injury/infection, which again, the private insurance companies will amend their policies accordingly. Our legal department informed us that by next year, all of these costs would be the hospitals responsibility.

Gah. It is not at all this simple. "Mistakes" are often things that are very difficult to control, like nosocomial infections. Trust me, all this does is make health care more expensive.

Hospitals not being paid for certain procedures is what leads to $12 boxes of tissues.

Came here for Futurama references. Will not leave disappointed.

/Good news everybody!

jjorsett: Great. Now if their error makes you sicker, it'll be more cost effective to let you die.

It's something to think about...either that or push you out the back door when they fix what you came in for, without checking if anything else might have gone wrong in the meantime.

ladypants: Gah. It is not at all this simple. "Mistakes" are often things that are very difficult to control, like nosocomial infections. Trust me, all this does is make health care more expensive.

Hospitals not being paid for certain procedures is what leads to $12 boxes of tissues.

Except, that's not all of what Medicaid is refusing to pay for. They are refusing to pay for "conditions that could reasonably have been prevented." Stuff like badly trained nurses dropping patients, catheter infections, bed sores. Yes, I suspect that if a patient in isolation gets pneumonia from a nurse, they'll probably refuse to cover that too.

Just like the banking industry, when the hospitals are being run poorly and bleeding money the correct answer must be to just let them go. Don't mandate patient care. Of course that will make things better.

ladypants: Gah. It is not at all this simple. "Mistakes" are often things that are very difficult to control, like nosocomial infections. Trust me, all this does is make health care more expensive.

Hospitals not being paid for certain procedures is what leads to $12 boxes of tissues.

That's already a pretty high medical bill you have there. Trust us. You don't want anything to happen that might make it go up.

How in the name of bureaucracy can this be considered a 'good thing'???????

So now the hospital leaves a sponge in me, I get an infection and I have to pay for it to be fixed myself?????

On what planet is this ok? So Medicaid/Medicare won't pay. Soon the private insurers won't pay. That leaves... guess who.. the victim again. WTF people. How can you be happy about this?

Sure, if I live through it I can sue them. But who is going to fix the problem so that I live long enough to sue them. The hospital who made the mistake? They'd make sure I'd never woke up again. No more lawsuit. A different hospital? Why would they? They know that there isn't any insurance that will pay for it. They aren't going to take me.

Lawsuits aren't instant you know. In the meantime you can lose everything trying to pay off a bill due to hospital error. So it's bad enough that I'm taking my life into my hands going into a bloody hospital.. now I get to put my family's home at risk too. All while having health insurance that I'm probably paying stupid money for already.

Ya great system...

I just spent a week in the hospital for a severe staph infection I got from a blood test.

Because the blood test was a drug screening for my job, my insurance company wouldn't cover it. The hospital, who also did the blood test, claims they aren't responsible, because my employer signed a liability waiver. My employer (and by extension workers comp) isn't responsible, because the blood test was not on the jobsite, and was conducted on my personal time.

In the mean time, I've got a $15k hospital bill laying on my desk that nobody wants to pay, and threats of a lawsuit if it's not paid within three months.

Medicare?! Goddamn socialists!

FarkTastic229:
Then every "undocumented worker" would bring their car in, get it fixed for free, and then drive off without paying their bill.

because of legislation demanding that

Then when you get your car fixed they charge you to pay for the cars getting fixed for free. Of course, the auto repair shop would be open 24 hours a day, and would fix your car or at least a "mechanic" with 8+ years post-HS training would look at it within 24 hours.

2/10 You don't need a car to survive.

great, this doesn't incentivise the already large problem of under reporting/ disclosure of medical mistakes.

do you honestly think this will make the care providers more careful? they already can and frequently do get their but sued off, there is no conspiracy to injure people. It looks bad for everyone.

hospitals will drop the tab right back on insurance companies, who will drop it on you.

When insurance companies stop paying doctors for the time we sit and wait in the lobby, wake me up.

Goimir: 2/10 You don't need a car to survive.

While that may be true for you, we can't all live in the city and work at trendy stores within walking distance.

beaverfetus: do you honestly think this will make the care providers more careful? they already can and frequently do get their but sued off, there is no conspiracy to injure people. It looks bad for everyone.

Residents working 70 hours a week sounds like a conspiracy to injure people. Attending surgeons don't have it much better. The entire medical system is completely farked up.

the ha ha guy: I just spent a week in the hospital for a severe staph infection I got from a blood test.

Because the blood test was a drug screening for my job, my insurance company wouldn't cover it. The hospital, who also did the blood test, claims they aren't responsible, because my employer signed a liability waiver. My employer (and by extension workers comp) isn't responsible, because the blood test was not on the jobsite, and was conducted on my personal time.

In the mean time, I've got a $15k hospital bill laying on my desk that nobody wants to pay, and threats of a lawsuit if it's not paid within three months

The fark it's not covered by workers comp. If your employer required you to get that blood test and you got sick from it, you for damn sure are covered by workers comp.

First thing Monday morning, call the state agency that regulates workers comp and sic them on your employer's workers comp carrier. I can pretty much guarentee they will change their tune, PDQ. If they do not, then make calls to every television news department and newspaper in your city. That should do it.

/fifteen years in workers comp claims, so I know what I am talking about

A society that can not care for its sick and injured has no right to be called modern or civilized.

the ha ha guy: I just spent a week in the hospital for a severe staph infection I got from a blood test.

Because the blood test was a drug screening for my job, my insurance company wouldn't cover it. The hospital, who also did the blood test, claims they aren't responsible, because my employer signed a liability waiver. My employer (and by extension workers comp) isn't responsible, because the blood test was not on the jobsite, and was conducted on my personal time.

In the mean time, I've got a $15k hospital bill laying on my desk that nobody wants to pay, and threats of a lawsuit if it's not paid within three months.

Wow, they've got that circle of irresponsibility completely worked out don't they? Its almost flawless...though, I do think its workers comp since your job required it. I think you should ask a contingency attorney about it.

One more on this topic.

Years ago, I had a workers comp claim where a guy fell at work and broke his hip.

The ortho went in and repaired it, putting in six screws. After a while, when the bone had healed, he went in and removed the screws. In the two week post op visit, x-rays showed he had only taken out five screws, so yet another operation was needed to take out the one he missed.

After reviewing the medical records, I sent off a letter to the ortho, with a copy to the hospital, stating that said ortho was going to have to eat the additional surgery charges as well as any hospital charges. To their credit, he and the hospital did not choose to argue the point.

Shortly after that, the ortho was no longer affiliated with either his ortho group nor the hospital.

FTA:

Until now, the Joint Commission on the Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations has effectively held a monoply on the hospital reviews, which are required in order to participate in Medicare.

We should put a bounty out on these irresponsible, single ply bathroom tissues.

Wait what was this about?

GomezAdams: I had surgery that went perfect but had three separate infections that damn near did me in. Nurses aides brought me infections - the worst I think was the two doses of C-diff (Clostridium difficile), a nasty explosive type of diarrhea. By the time you feel your butt clench it's too late. The pressure is so great that you feel as if you could hit a 10 inch spot on the far side of the 12' room. Then the nurses aides would come in and take my temperature and blood pressure without gown, foot covers, and gloves even though there was a sign on the door saying I was highly contagious. Mostly Third Worlders with minimal English language skills. They could barely answer basic questions and would have to call a nurse for anything more complicated than when are the meals arriving?

*RANT*
If the government takes over more of the medical care payouts and forces hospitals and doctors to hire even more less qualified staff that are willing to work for lower wages than experienced Americans with genuine degrees then you can expect even more of this in the future. We have it bad enough with the current members of the Weasel Clan (bean counters and their cousins, the lawyers and insurance providers) driving the medical cart now. Just wait for the bearaucrats(sic), the Badgers and Ferrets, to start penny pinching even more and doling out your health benefits.
*/RANT*

___________________
Before moving on to graduate work, my wife worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant to put herself through college and she would come home complaining about the doctors who did not follow basic sanitary procedure. The doctors did not wearing the appropriate protective clothing and they did not wash their hands between patient contacts. The one time she did try to to remind a doctor about the patient contact precautions, she got reamed hard by the little prick with a god complex and nearly lost her job.

It wasn't the nurses or the nursing assistants that were spreading things like c-diff at her hospital, it was the doctors(who should have known better than anyone else.)

Goimir: Ahh yes. If hospitals did auto repair . . .

"Sorry, we ah, dropped an engine on your car's roof, it's gonna cost you another $5,000 for that oil change."

If doctors did auto repair, they'd take your complaint on a clicking sound in the engine and go straight to ripping out the passenger seat and have it reupholstered. Not resolving the issue, they would want to perform a series of extreme diagnostics on the electrical system and replace both bumpers. Scratching their heads in amazement that the clicking is still there, they'd refer you to a paint and body specialist... on the other end of the country. Front end alignment, new set of tires (and rims for good measure), new dashboard and gauges, headlights, windshield wiper blades, trunk release mechanism, air freshener, door hinges, computer controller, brake pads, muffler all replaced and still that damned clicking.

Then the sad realization that there is no hope; it will never be fixed, it's something you will have to learn to live with. Until one day you get an oil change and the nurse notices there a piece of plastic wrapped up in the tension pulley and yanks it out at no cost.

Doctors and weathermen, the two highest paid professional guessers you deal with on a regular basis.

But, with my help, they be EATING you.

aiiee

:(

Aulus: the ha ha guy: I just spent a week in the hospital for a severe staph infection I got from a blood test.

Because the blood test was a drug screening for my job, my insurance company wouldn't cover it. The hospital, who also did the blood test, claims they aren't responsible, because my employer signed a liability waiver. My employer (and by extension workers comp) isn't responsible, because the blood test was not on the jobsite, and was conducted on my personal time.

In the mean time, I've got a $15k hospital bill laying on my desk that nobody wants to pay, and threats of a lawsuit if it's not paid within three months

The fark it's not covered by workers comp. If your employer required you to get that blood test and you got sick from it, you for damn sure are covered by workers comp.

First thing Monday morning, call the state agency that regulates workers comp and sic them on your employer's workers comp carrier. I can pretty much guarentee they will change their tune, PDQ. If they do not, then make calls to every television news department and newspaper in your city. That should do it.

/fifteen years in workers comp claims, so I know what I am talking about

CORRECT. And what's this "on your own time" shiat, either?
If you're hourly, go see your HR rep. Required to do it for the company = company work = on the clock. That included time you spent filling out any pre-exam questionnaires.

If you're salary, well, you're salary. You don't actually have any 'your own time', eh?

GomezAdams: Nurses aides brought me infections - the worst I think was the two doses of C-diff (Clostridium difficile), a nasty explosive type of diarrhea. By the time you feel your butt clench it's too late. The pressure is so great that you feel as if you could hit a 10 inch spot on the far side of the 12' room.

I drank half a case of Olympia once in college. I was wondering what was in it that caused that.

My plan: if I ever come down with a terminal disease, lose a limb, or go blind, I am moving to Alaska, riding it out until I can't handle it, and getting dropped off in the deep woods. Just like our forefathers.

/Currently have health insurance

MrHacks: Medicare is doing it wrong.

How can a doctor make a proper diagnosis without testing for serious illnesses in those rare cases?
Medicare's plan seems to be in favoir of forcing the doctor to pick a diagnosis and stick with it. A feaver today could be a fatal case of menengitis tomorrow. The doctor, being the fool to use Occam's Razer sends you home base on the fact that he thinks it is "just a feaver".

If I had to become sicker to become better, I would allow it. At least the doctor does his job and is not pressured to not do it right.

Protip: It's "fever"

MrHacks: Medicare's plan seems to be in favoir of forcing the doctor to pick a diagnosis and stick with it. A feaver today could be a fatal case of menengitis tomorrow. The doctor, being the fool to use Occam's Razer sends you home base on the fact that he thinks it is "just a feaver".

Well at least the doctors already know how babby is formed.

We're already scrutinizing our patients for possible signs and symptoms of infection prior to surgery, and canceling or refusing care until their GP's/Family docs get it under control.

This is just an excuse for Medicare not to pay a bill. They wont pay a dime for any care that a patient receives if they get a nosocomial infection. That is just not equitable.

aestiva: We're already scrutinizing our patients for possible signs and symptoms of infection prior to surgery, and canceling or refusing care until their GP's/Family docs get it under control.

This is just an excuse for Medicare not to pay a bill. They wont pay a dime for any care that a patient receives if they get a nosocomial infection. That is just not equitable.

I had a notsocomical infection once. It wasn't funny.

Unfortunately, the so called "nocosomial" infections are usually MRSA, or resistant staph infections. Current medical guidelines recommend a certain antibiotic for typical surgery, that doesn't kill the MRSA.
MRSA is fairly common in the general public now - surfers get it, team sport players (from sharing equipment/touching), etc.

So current guidelines want the doctors to give antibiotics that don't treat resistant bacteria. If then a patient comes in who is colonized with MRSA, and gets an infection, then Medicare won't pay for it? - That's farked up.

One other point. C. Diff infections are caused when normal antibiotics are given with suppress normal bacteria. The C. Diff then get a chance to grow because they don't have any competition.

Ishidan: Aulus: the ha ha guy: I just spent a week in the hospital for a severe staph infection I got from a blood test.

Because the blood test was a drug screening for my job, my insurance company wouldn't cover it. The hospital, who also did the blood test, claims they aren't responsible, because my employer signed a liability waiver. My employer (and by extension workers comp) isn't responsible, because the blood test was not on the jobsite, and was conducted on my personal time.

In the mean time, I've got a $15k hospital bill laying on my desk that nobody wants to pay, and threats of a lawsuit if it's not paid within three months

The fark it's not covered by workers comp. If your employer required you to get that blood test and you got sick from it, you for damn sure are covered by workers comp.

First thing Monday morning, call the state agency that regulates workers comp and sic them on your employer's workers comp carrier. I can pretty much guarentee they will change their tune, PDQ. If they do not, then make calls to every television news department and newspaper in your city. That should do it.

/fifteen years in workers comp claims, so I know what I am talking about

CORRECT. And what's this "on your own time" shiat, either?
If you're hourly, go see your HR rep. Required to do it for the company = company work = on the clock. That included time you spent filling out any pre-exam questionnaires.

If you're salary, well, you're salary. You don't actually have any 'your own time', eh?

Well, that isn't entirely accurate... Pre-employment activities aren't payable, because you aren't actually employed yet, which is why people aren't paid to fill out applications (even though it is work-related, isn't considered work).

I actually write some of the internal "Present on Admission" reports... you'd be scared yet interested to see how fast hospitals are rushing to bring standards up and really, well, to look like the one guy who "gets it" out of the competition.