... pissing match more like.

Talking about a pissing match.


By sepuku2 at 2008-10-01

Man, it wasn't even a `round' table! It was kind of egg shaped.
And I found as the night wore on, Dion's accent got thicker to a point were I just tuned him out when he started talking.
Chretien was easier to understand (back in the day)!

Our debate played pretty freely with the definition of the word too.

Debates should be in english.

they're not even a real country anyway.

burndtdan: they're not even a real country anywayeh.

It was more entertaining than the VP debate, which I wasn't expecting.

Oh, and I *heart* Elizabeth May. She's rocked both of the debates and proves that the Greens are a force. Jack Layton's now gotta worry about a war on two fronts.

Crazy Canadian party leaders, they always want to talk about policies. We need more "lipstick" and "I can see Calgary from Regina" mixed into our political process.

/I kid
//May vote NDP for the first time in my life. (38)

Stephane Dion didn't help my mission to find a reason to vote for him.

I just may have to vote for Layton. *sigh*

Can you see Russia from British Columbia?

Can ya field dress a moose?

I thought harper and may were the only 2 that looked really on the ball.

I would love a conservative minority with may as the leader of a capable opposition. My whole support for the conservatives was predicated on a capable opposition and i just don't see it. The liberals have lost any ability to rally their voter base behind them. it seems many left-ish liberals are heading to the NDP.. which may force me, as a left-ish conservative to vote liberal.

Interesting times no? May really did better then i expected though. And I loved duceppe telling 3 of the leaders they'll never win and just don't admit it.

Cyborg77: Can you see Russia from British Columbia?

Can ya field dress a moose?

No, but we can see Alaska from British Columbia. Keepin' an eye on them.

That said, I might just vote Green. I don't particularly disagree with much of their platform. However, I'd be voting with the intention of giving a small-but-good party more representation.

And what do you guys make of the claim that harper took it easy on layton to divide and conquer the left?

i wouldn't put it past him. He's a sly bastard.

LeCollectif: Cyborg77:

That said, I might just vote Green. I don't particularly disagree with much of their platform. However, I'd be voting with the intention of giving a small-but-good party more representation.

I was already planning on voting Green; I did last election and I still believe their platform is best. I just wanted to say that I expected Elizabeth May to do well but she exceeded my expectations. Good for her.

Last nights Palin/Biden tragedy wasn't exactly a debate.

At least Canada had five parties involved.

We just had the Republicrats who bicker internally.
Nader should've been there.
Bob Barr should've been there.
Cynthia Mc Kinney etc.

We need a 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th party here. We are supposed to be a democracy.

Can an endless series of apologies be considered a debate, though?

I thought Layton had the best lines of the night:

"Either you don't care, or you're incompetent!"

"Where's the plan? Under the sweater?" (don't have the actual quote but it was close to that)

May did well calling Harper on his bullshiat about crime.

Duceppe played to his base, which is all we can expect of him.

Harper came across as confident and calm. However, his "stay the course" strategy may come back to bite him in the ass if Canada's economy has more of a downturn before the election.

Dion, god damn, when I understood what you were saying it sounded good. I thought he did a decent job of getting the fundamentals of his economic strategy across. More than Harper can say, he doesn't even have his platform released, and he spent the entire time attacking Dion's plan. Great.

Cyborg77: Can ya field dress a moose?

My brother, father, and uncle field dressed a moose last weekend so I'm getting a kick...


Personally I think that the Canadian Leaders debates were far more entertaining and honest than the American debates. By adhering to the rigid style that the American debates do someone can rebut your answer with entire bullshiat and you don't get a chance to call them on it. At least during the Canadian debates with this "round style format" and free-for-all on the questions you get the opportunity to hear someone call another leader out on BS.

BoozePenguin: And what do you guys make of the claim that harper took it easy on layton to divide and conquer the left?

i wouldn't put it past him. He's a sly bastard.

That's how the conservatives have gotten anything done in the last little while. The left in Canada is divided 3 ways and conservatives are still worried.

LeCollectif:
No, but we can see Alaska from British Columbia. Keepin' an eye on them.

"As Palin rears her head and comes into the airspace of Canada, where do they go? It's British Columbia."

Ninja Wicked: LeCollectif: Cyborg77:

That said, I might just vote Green. I don't particularly disagree with much of their platform. However, I'd be voting with the intention of giving a small-but-good party more representation.

I was already planning on voting Green; I did last election and I still believe their platform is best. I just wanted to say that I expected Elizabeth May to do well but she exceeded my expectations. Good for her.

They need to change their party name. I have a hard time voting for a member of a party whose name is becoming a catchy buzz word for energy efficient toasters and cars.

Also, did anyone else hear Harper say "Lazy-fare"

Definitely didn't win any Quebec votes with his anglophone accent... The problem? Dion lost more with his piss-poor english.

BoozePenguin: And I loved duceppe telling 3 of the leaders they'll never win and just don't admit it.

Truth be told, 1 of those 3 (May) has already commented that she knows she won't be PM.

I believe her quote was (paraphrasing): "I'm not pretending that I'm going to be PM, I'll leave that task to Jack [Layton]."

ace0spades: "Either you don't care, or you're incompetent!"

"Where's the plan? Under the sweater?"

I liked those too. Personally, as much as I dislike Jack Layton, I think he did the best of everyone at the debate and May did really well too. I think her and Jack decided to go for broke and be the attack dogs in the debates which was refreshing.

I also really loved those lines, it's nice to see that sort of thing. Much prefered it to the VP debates alsthough I enjoyed watching Palin look like a retard and Biden pwning her a few times there too.

Dion's make-up artist needs to be fired - he looked like he was getting ready for the prom - a little eye shadow and he would have been Stephanie Dion.

May did a great job of calling everyone out. I think my GF said it best - she's the 'mom' of the bunch, haranguing her boys for not telling the truth.

Jack Layton focused on beating down both the libs and the cons, not realising, or caring, that he's splitting the vote even more!

Definitely engaging though - Steve Paikin did a great job as moderator.

At one point I tried streaming both this debate and the VP debate, but my girlfriend started seizing so I started to alternate between the two.. I found this debate to be pretty interesting.

It was nice to see Layton call Harper on his party's past (lack of) performance when it comes to making false promises with no delivery. I wish he had had enough time to both do that AND fully disclose his party's stance on the issues, but calling out harper needed to be done.

Oh yeah - one thing I noticed, the CBC constantly used the "towering power" camera angles between harper and whoever was attacking him. There was a post to a blog after the first Palin interview about how camera techniques are used against people. In that case it was Palin appearing shorter and diminutive against the back of the interview (Charlie whatshisface). Last night they kept doing it where harper appeared to dwarf the size of whoever was attacking him.

g026r

Ahahaha! class!

I love her :p

It was fun if you hate Harper. Not so fun if you don't.

Seemed more like one big dogpile on Harper. No questions between parties, just a 4 on 1 handicap match. Pretty pathetic.

Count-Blah: Oh yeah - one thing I noticed, the CBC constantly used the "towering power" camera angles between harper and whoever was attacking him. There was a post to a blog after the first Palin interview about how camera techniques are used against people. In that case it was Palin appearing shorter and diminutive against the back of the interview (Charlie whatshisface). Last night they kept doing it where harper appeared to dwarf the size of whoever was attacking him.

Interesting comment... I didn't notice that. What I DID notice was Harper's chuckle when Layton started attacking Dion.

Harper's brain: "Yes.... YESSSSSS! MWAHAHAHA"

And his general smugness surrounding his time in office. "We're keeping things at an even keel... go us!" when we have the lowest economic growth in the G8.

A really interesting point I think was made surrounding the "Made in Canada" label. The opposition's attacks on Free Trade even got Harper to lean left.

Layton went populist on us, and lots of people are buying into it, particularly in the middle class who see Dion as a whimpering moron. Which is why Harper will win a minority. He lost Quebec with his arts cuts.

Okay, I can agree that Harper and May were sharper than Layton and Dion.

But everyone needs to think again about who was really the most effective person in the debate. It was Duceppe. As usual.

The guy is scarily good in debates. And has been for the past... well, as many elections I can remember watching debates for. His policy proposals are well thought through, and he's very effective at savaging proposals from the other parties that are not.

If the guy didn't want to destroy Canada, he'd be a hell of a Prime Minister. Oh, and he speaks better English than Dion. Which is why Dion can never be the Prime Minister: he doesn't speak English as well as the guy who doesn't want to have to speak English.

/Yes, I'm aware his party is falling part. It's because support for separatism is going out of style. Note that the party recognizes that changing leaders won't help prevent that, and that the guy they've got is effective as hell.

BudTheSpud: It was fun if you hate Harper. Not so fun if you don't.

Seemed more like one big dogpile on Harper. No questions between parties, just a 4 on 1 handicap match. Pretty pathetic.

Given the massive ideological differences between the parties, what did you expect?

I can't believe Harper had the gall to say banning judges from the option of conditional sentences for certain offenses is giving them MORE discretion. He doesn't even seem to know his own policy. It wasn't to give them the option to sentence harsher, it was removing the option to sentence lighter. This man's doublespeak knows no bounds.

BudTheSpud: Seemed more like one big dogpile on Harper. No questions between parties, just a 4 on 1 handicap match. Pretty pathetic.

Two points: first, everybody is going to attack the incumbent and/or the guy's who's ahead in the polls.

Secondly, you must have missed Layton going after Dion fairly fiercely.

Dion's accent is a little too much. Every time he said "... for Canadians" it sounded like "...'fark' Canadians." Anyway, I thought he did pretty well. He was the most feminine one at the table, unfortunately.

Layton is an absolute tool. Everything he says is designed to appeal as much as possible to the emotional state of the individual. He brought nothing worthwhile. Joe Comartin should seriously lead that party.

Gilles would be great if he wasn't a seperatist prick. He does a pretty good job of cutting through bs when he's talking. Nice to see someone actually point out that health care is under provincial jurisdiction. He was a little too eager to get sound bytes out of Harper though.

May was solid when she wasn't reading her overly rehearsed 45 second statements. Too bad her party's platform is an absolute joke.

Harper did decently, continuing to play to the more relaxed, easy-going image his party is going for. Hopefully his blatant lies about the balance in the liberal platform aren't believed by anyone. Overall I feel he answered the constant stream of attacks well. No clearly identifiable platform on the website is totally not cool though.

BudTheSpud: Seemed more like one big dogpile on Harper. No questions between parties, just a 4 on 1 handicap match. Pretty pathetic.

Considering it's 4 parties running against Harper then it's kind of appropriate don't you think?

The Bloc has a leader with better English than the Liberals?

Yup, the Liberals are going to lose, big time.

it was a lot of fun to watch. I watched some of the French deavte as well, they didn't miss a beat.

BudTheSpud: It was fun if you hate Harper. Not so fun if you don't.

Seemed more like one big dogpile on Harper. No questions between parties, just a 4 on 1 handicap match. Pretty pathetic.

the incumbent is the guy to beat, what do you expect? Flowers, kisses and rainbows thrown his way? It happens in ALL debates like this, regardless of whether it's a provincial, municipal or federal-level election. The best example I can think of is the last Alberta election. Stelmach was hammered as well, because he was the favourite to win. Buck up sunshine, Harper's a big boy now and can handle himself.


...anyways, I thought the debate was a lot of fun to watch, and I thought all the leaders had some good strengths, and others had some bad weaknesses.

Dion: his english was a bit garbled, but he did come across as passionate and had a good, comprehensive vision. On the other hand, he got slapped around by the failures of previous Liberal administrations in the 90s, and that tarnished his overall performance.

Layton: Had the best soundbyte of the night "where is your platform? Under the sweater?" my whole household laughed at that. Overall, he presented his ideas and hit Dion and Harper pretty hard. His major weakness was that he sometimes did come off as a little bit hostile....he tends to overdue it in these debates.

Harper: He did pretty well, generally, as he kept his calm in the face of some pretty vicious attacks on his policies. His real weakness revolved around some of those attacks...like with Dion, his past remarks and positions were dredged up and he never really found an answer to some of the charges, and at one point he made a really snide remark that I thought was meant to insult, not actually make a point. It seemed really out of place in this debate format and sort of violated the spirit of it all.

May: She stood up to the big boys and did a good job. If any of them "won", she probably did because she presented herself to canada in a way she had not previously been able to. People didn't really know what she was capable of, beyond what the media told them, but last night she did a good job. Her big weakness was that she made a pretty big error and painted herself into a corner when the discussion turned to healthcare, to the point where the Moderator had to ask her whether she'd nationalize all private clinics (even if they were covered by provincial insurance plans). She would have been burnt regardless of her answer, so she gave a vague non-answer about the Canada Health Act (which I expected any of them would have given).

CanadianCommie: at one point he made a really snide remark that I thought was meant to insult, not actually make a point. It seemed really out of place in this debate format and sort of violated the spirit of it all.

Curious as to what comment that was.

On the other hand, I'm also curious as to when exactly he was, as he put it, "between jobs". Seems to me his career since he was a student goes Reform strategist -> Reform MP -> National Citizen's Coalition head -> Canadian Alliance Leader -> Canadian Alliance MP -> CPC Leader/MP (which segues to PM).

It never appears that he left one job without first knowing what his next was going to be. "Between jobs" doesn't mean that you just haven't shown up for your first day of work yet.

Maneck: Okay, I can agree that Harper and May were sharper than Layton and Dion.

But everyone needs to think again about who was really the most effective person in the debate. It was Duceppe. As usual.

The guy is scarily good in debates. And has been for the past... well, as many elections I can remember watching debates for. His policy proposals are well thought through, and he's very effective at savaging proposals from the other parties that are not.

If the guy didn't want to destroy Canada, he'd be a hell of a Prime Minister. Oh, and he speaks better English than Dion. Which is why Dion can never be the Prime Minister: he doesn't speak English as well as the guy who doesn't want to have to speak English.

/Yes, I'm aware his party is falling part. It's because support for separatism is going out of style. Note that the party recognizes that changing leaders won't help prevent that, and that the guy they've got is effective as hell.

I agree. Duceppe would have been PM by now if he hadn't focused on separatism. He is a competent man, and it's always a mistake to count him out.

However, I disagree that speaking English perfectly is the #1 priority for Canadians. I mean, look at Jean Chrétien. He succeeded, although he had the mad charisma to make up for his accent. And Paul Martin won an election even though his speeches and debates were exceptionally poor in both languages.

bobbette: And Paul Martin won an election even though his speeches and debates were exceptionally poor in both languages.

I'd argue that Paul Martin didn't win the election so much as Harper lost it. There's a pettiness and vindictiveness that's always been present with Harper, and though he's gotten better at controlling it when it matters, back in 2004 he still hadn't. (Child porn comments and his response, anyone?)

That said, it's never gone away, he just is better at controlling his interactions with the media. Watching him in action in the House of Commons should prove that to anyone.

g026r: It never appears that he left one job without first knowing what his next was going to be. "Between jobs" doesn't mean that you just haven't shown up for your first day of work yet.

I wondered about that as well. I also thought it was kind of strange that he took credit for the banking regulations that kept us out of a meltdown situation like the US is experiencing.

Weaselly little fark.

I didn't watch the whole debate. I watched the first 1/2 hour, the National's roundup and analysis. I instead watched the US debate, it was funny, but I kinda feel dirty now.

What I watched of the debates was pants. Harper was his usual slippery self. May had teeth, made many very good points (we sold off Inco and Falconbridge damnit). Layton threw the best punches but had nothing on his own (Where's your plan?). I finally get the criticism of Dion, although I don't agree with it. Duceppe was excellent.

I can't believe that Harper does not have a platform and people still want to vote for him - he has earned no such trust.

Most of all, the format was awful, which is why I couldn't keep watching. The pileups and shouting matches were constant interruption. Paikin tried to keep things moving, but the leaders couldn't control themselves.

Rex Murphy (he just gets uglier everytime I see him) made the point that we need many more debates. This could not be more clear. We need to allow Canadian to see each party's platform and have the leaders defend it. We need at least 3 debates - financial policy, social policy, trade/international policy. They need to be structured, no more freewheeling. Something along the lines of topic, rebuttal, rebuttal, rebuttal. They need to be in both languages at the same time, just like the House.

This all lead me to think of the problem with the electoral system - it's broken. The Bloc is projected to win ~35 seats but will likely get fewer votes than the Green, who are projected to get 1. This is wrong. LISPOP^

More than ever, this country needs electoral reform. We need to adopt the MMP^ system so that I can vote for my candidate and my party (which are almost never the same).

If the Cons do win a majority, the Left/Center parties need to start merging - their platforms are too similar.

I would also like to add that the Liberal campaign is the worst I've ever seen. No message. No presence. Why are they not campaigning on the strength of their cabinet? They have the best of the bunch. Dion is gone after this election, or the party is slipping even further into obscurity.

whereisian: I would also like to add that the Liberal campaign is the worst I've ever seen. No message. No presence. Why are they not campaigning on the strength of their cabinet? They have the best of the bunch. Dion is gone after this election, or the party is slipping even further into obscurity.

The Liberal candidate in my riding (Westlock-St Paul) didn't even have signs up until a day or so ago. I couldn't believe it, so I emailed her campaign manager and he still hasn't gotten back to me. Terrible organization.

strathcona: On the one hand, terrible organization. On the other hand, I'm not entirely surprised. There was a difference of what, almost 50% of the vote between the CPC candidate and 2nd place last time, wasn't there?

Dion was pretty strong in the French debates. Too bad for him the Clarity Act is tattooed on his legacy there.

As for the English debates, I watched the VPs, along with most of the country. Anyone think this scheduling conflict was engineered?

I am getting a kick out the responses in this thread, with nary a troll to be found and no stupid farking partisan-ship.

Politics needs to be "warts and all" and not tightly scripted and rehearsed and, well, STAGED.

I will never leave this country :)

g026r: There was a difference of what, almost 50% of the vote between the CPC candidate and 2nd place last time, wasn't there?

Yeah, but this is just pathetic. It's almost defeatist.

Demon of the Fall: As for the English debates, I watched the VPs, along with most of the country. Anyone think this scheduling conflict was engineered?

Absolutely. Harper made it clear he wanted the Canadian election to coincide with the American one. He is a skilled politician, which is why he's winning.