Nice of election geek to effectively own itself. The question put to Biden was Is the VP part of the legislative branch and Biden said that article one defines the role of the VP in that regards. And he was absolutly correct. Unless of course they think The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided. means something else.

do the wingnuts seriously want to parse shiat like this? which article defines the executive role of the VP? first, biden was partly right, as Dinki says above. second, you know biden knows his shiat but misspeaks from time to time. third, if you want to parse, let's talk about "general mcclellan" and a whole slew of other palin gaffes.

the difference is, biden actually knew what he was talking about. palin doesn't know anything about what she was talking about - she was simply regurgitating rehearsed talking points. hell, she didn't even play by the rules and answer the questions!

Palin actually makes me nervous. She said the Constitution gave great flexibility to the office of the Vice President, hinting that she would like to carry on the fine work of Dick Cheney in that position.

Sgygus: She said the Constitution gave great flexibility to the office of the Vice President...

Yes, obviously from the Tino Scalia school of "I'm a strict constructionalist when I say I am."

I was actually more amused by Biden's idea of the role he's going to play in an Obama administration - it sounded a lot like he planned on being another Dick Cheney.

"But Barack Obama indicated to me he wanted me with him to help him govern. So every major decision he'll be making, I'll be sitting in the room to give my best advice."

DeltaXi65: I was actually more amused by Biden's idea of the role he's going to play in an Obama administration - it sounded a lot like he planned on being another Dick Cheney.

"But Barack Obama indicated to me he wanted me with him to help him govern. So every major decision he'll be making, I'll be sitting in the room to give my best advice."

You realize that sort of teamwork started in the Carter administration and continues to this day, right?

The article says that the Constitution only defines the legislative branch, but there are clearly sections regarding the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. The vice presidency is defined under the judicial branch. Why the hell was this greenlit? It is so filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations of the manner in which the government was designed to operate.

/Admins hate America?

Yeah, he got the number of the article wrong. I noticed that watching it.

DeltaXi65: I was actually more amused by Biden's idea of the role he's going to play in an Obama administration - it sounded a lot like he planned on being another Dick Cheney.

"But Barack Obama indicated to me he wanted me with him to help him govern. So every major decision he'll be making, I'll be sitting in the room to give my best advice."

The problem with Dick Cheney is not that he was a close adviser.

deadapostle: The article says that the Constitution only defines the legislative branch, but there are clearly sections regarding the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. The vice presidency is defined under the judicial branch. Why the hell was this greenlit? It is so filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations of the manner in which the government was designed to operate.

I think the article is saying that Article 1 defines the legislative branch, and Article 2 defines the executive. Biden messed that up.

Sgygus: Palin actually makes me nervous. She said the Constitution gave great flexibility to the office of the Vice President, hinting that she would like to carry on the fine work of Dick Cheney in that position.

No chance. She's a complete moron. McCain knows this, his advisors know it, and damn sure his cabinet will know this. If McCain is elected, she'll have no more power than the first lady. Maybe less.

The scary part is the fact that she COULD be President.

It was a reckless and dangerous move on the part of McCain to nominate her.

deadapostle: The article says that the Constitution only defines the legislative branch, but there are clearly sections regarding the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. The vice presidency is defined under the judicial branch. Why the hell was this greenlit? It is so filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations of the manner in which the government was designed to operate.

I might suggest a re-read of the linked article. Biden quite clearly referred to Article I of the Constitution and the role of the Vice President as part of the Executive Branch, when Art. I deals expressly with the Legislative, not the Executive, Branch. It wasn't one of Biden's shining moments, but he admittedly has a propensity for placing his foot in his mouth.

Sgygus: Palin actually makes me nervous. She said the Constitution gave great flexibility to the office of the Vice President, hinting that she would like to carry on the fine work of Dick Cheney in that position.

actually, she said she thinks the VP's office should be more powerful. seriously. after cheney - how farked up is that?

Sgygus: hinting that she would like to carry on the fine work of Dick Cheney in that position.

Really?

I also liked it when she called the President of Iran "insane."

FlashHarry: Sgygus: Palin actually makes me nervous. She said the Constitution gave great flexibility to the office of the Vice President, hinting that she would like to carry on the fine work of Dick Cheney in that position.

actually, she said she thinks the VP's office should be more powerful. seriously. after cheney - how farked up is that?

She also said it had great flexibility, and that the Framers' genius was to be vague about what the VP does. That's, you know, a lie.

Nabb1: deadapostle: The article says that the Constitution only defines the legislative branch, but there are clearly sections regarding the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. The vice presidency is defined under the judicial branch. Why the hell was this greenlit? It is so filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations of the manner in which the government was designed to operate.

I might suggest a re-read of the linked article. Biden quite clearly referred to Article I of the Constitution and the role of the Vice President as part of the Executive Branch, when Art. I deals expressly with the Legislative, not the Executive, Branch. It wasn't one of Biden's shining moments, but he admittedly has a propensity for placing his foot in his mouth.

How is this placing a foot in the mouth? At best, see Dinki's post at the top. At worst, he said Article 1 when he should have said Article 2. If this is the best the right wing nut jobs can do, then I'm not worried.

Palin's answer is a HELL of a lot more wrong than Biden's. And a HELL of a lot scarier:

PALIN: Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there, and we'll do what we have to do to administer very appropriately the plans that are needed for this nation. And it is my executive experience that is partly to be attributed to my pick as V.P. with McCain, not only as a governor, but earlier on as a mayor, as an oil and gas regulator, as a business owner. It is those years of experience on an executive level that will be put to good use in the White House also.

Walker: PALIN: Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president.

I really wish we had the chance to ask Palin some basic questions about the constitution, because I don't think she knows them.

What is an enumerated power?

What are the constitutional obligations of a Vice President?

Can you give your opinion on the commerce clause? (If anyone watched Biden's answer to Couric about which SC case he disagreed with, he clearly has intimate knowledge of all this stuff.)

DamnYankees: deadapostle: The article says that the Constitution only defines the legislative branch, but there are clearly sections regarding the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. The vice presidency is defined under the judicial branch. Why the hell was this greenlit? It is so filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations of the manner in which the government was designed to operate.

I think the article is saying that Article 1 defines the legislative branch, and Article 2 defines the executive. Biden messed that up.

Not at all. You're not making it clear what the initial conversation was regarding. Cheney believes he is legislative, not executive. Biden said the only power the VP has in the legislative branch is found in the first amendment. Biden believes the VP is executive because they only legislative power the constitution grants to the VP is in the event of a tie in the senate, the VP can cast his vote. Thats it. There is no foundation for Cheney to claim he is not in the executive branchof the administration.

Biden's point is very clear, people are simply not choosing to accept that he's speaking in response to Palins claim that she would want more power then cheney(of who cheney believes he has authority in the legislative branch and not the executive.)

RealDisagreer: Not at all. You're not making it clear what the initial conversation was regarding. Cheney believes he is legislative, not executive. Biden said the only power the VP has in the legislative branch is found in the first amendment. Biden believes the VP is executive because they only legislative power the constitution grants to the VP is in the event of a tie in the senate, the VP can cast his vote. Thats it. There is no foundation for Cheney to claim he is not in the executive branchof the administration.

Biden's point is very clear, people are simply not choosing to accept that he's speaking in response to Palins claim that she would want more power then cheney(of who cheney believes he has authority in the legislative branch and not the executive.)

I don't remember the exchange that well. You could very well be right.

DamnYankees: What are the constitutional obligations of a Vice President?

Ha! Gwen did sort-of ask this to both. Of course she didn't have the guts to force anyone to actually answer the questions, so...

Still, I was waiting for this single question to be asked.

"...a tie in the Senate..."
"Ok, ties rarely happen, so beyond that?"
"...well, golly, not much of anything, eh?"

downstairs: "...well, golly, not much of anything, eh?"

Well, that's pretty much what Biden said.

DamnYankees: RealDisagreer: Not at all. You're not making it clear what the initial conversation was regarding. Cheney believes he is legislative, not executive. Biden said the only power the VP has in the legislative branch is found in the first amendment. Biden believes the VP is executive because they only legislative power the constitution grants to the VP is in the event of a tie in the senate, the VP can cast his vote. Thats it. There is no foundation for Cheney to claim he is not in the executive branchof the administration.

Biden's point is very clear, people are simply not choosing to accept that he's speaking in response to Palins claim that she would want more power then cheney(of who cheney believes he has authority in the legislative branch and not the executive.)

I don't remember the exchange that well. You could very well be right.

Go read the transript on CNN. It is made VERY clear what Biden is talking about if you see the full train of thought startign with Palins claim of power.

Biden is very right in what he says

here is Palins direct quote:

no. Of course, we know what a vice president does. And that's not only to preside over the Senate and will take that position very seriously also. I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are

Biden called her a ho bag on it. The constitution, specifically amendment 1 states clearly how limited the VP is in the legislative branch. No wiggle room to exercise more power as Palin believes. Because of this limitation, the VP is in the executive branch.

This website dodges the initial assertion made by Palin to make a false accusation against Biden.

KaponoFor3: "You think you know me..."

The Onanist: You realize that sort of teamwork started in the Carter administration and continues to this day, right?

That's not accurate. The only two Vice Presidents with the kind of access that Biden claims he'll have were Mondale and Cheney.

If you think those are two VPs you want to see emulated, that's fine. But not me.

DamnYankees: I really wish we had the chance to ask Palin some basic questions about the constitution, because I don't think she knows them.

What is an enumerated power?

What are the constitutional obligations of a Vice President?

Can you give your opinion on the commerce clause? (If anyone watched Biden's answer to Couric about which SC case he disagreed with, he clearly has intimate knowledge of all this stuff.)

She's not a lawyer. Asking her that is like asking a porn star about Laffer curves.

DeltaXi65: She's not a lawyer. Asking her that is like asking a porn star about Laffer curves.

I'm not a lawyer and I can talk semi-intelligently about law. I'm also an economist with a degree in it, so I'm professionally barred from speaking "intelligently" about the Laffer theory.

DeltaXi65: She's not a lawyer. Asking her that is like asking a porn star about Laffer curves.

If you don't know what an enumerated power is, you should not be serving in the federal government. Holy mother of god, man, they teach you this in grade school.

DeltaXi65: The Onanist: You realize that sort of teamwork started in the Carter administration and continues to this day, right?

That's not accurate. The only two Vice Presidents with the kind of access that Biden claims he'll have were Mondale and Cheney.

If you think those are two VPs you want to see emulated, that's fine. But not me.

he said collaboration, not decision making. All presidents seek advice of their VP's.

FlashHarry: you know biden knows his shiat but misspeaks from time to time.



What's a Bosniac?

DamnYankees: If you don't know what an enumerated power is, you should not be serving in the federal government. Holy mother of god, man, they teach you this in grade school.

No they don't. You don't even get civics until middle school. C'mon. And if half the morons in my Con Law class didn't know what they were, I don't know why you think the average American will.

Biden should know all of that stuff. He's a lawyer and former chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Palin's not a lawyer, never served in the federal government, and never had a real need to. She's running for Vice President, not law professor.

Good Holy Gravy, they're really saying that what he said isn't right because article 2 defines the executive branch and article 1 defines the VPs (whole limited) role in the legislative branch?

Why has no one posted a grasping at straws pic?

For Gods sake, her own Republican Senator (I forgot which one, I was watching MSNBC) essentially said, 'That woman doesn't know what's she's talking about and we don't want her help anyway'.

This just reinforces my opinion of Palin. She's not pious, she's not conservative, she's not even Joe Six-pack. She's a power hungry b*tch that wants to control absolutely everything - Iraq, oil, bedrooms and (most importantly) uteri.

That's why she didn't blink when accepting the VP slot. She's just one step closer to being supreme ruler of the world.

RealDisagreer: Biden called her a ho bag on it. The constitution, specifically amendment 1 states clearly how limited the VP is in the legislative branch. No wiggle room to exercise more power as Palin believes. Because of this limitation, the VP is in the executive branch.

Amendment 1? Please go back to elementary school. Article I defines the role of the VP as President of the Senate. By the way, Joe "knows everything" Biden was wrong in saying that Article I had anything to do with the Executive...Article I defines Legislative powers.

That power is CONSTITUTIONALLY DEFINED in Article I, Section 3 as breaking vote in the case of a tie. However, the Framers were wisely vague about the office.

Unlike others in the executive branch, the VP cannot be removed from office by the President. Anyone who has been to law school and has taken Constitutional law knows the significance of this. Under the Constitution, the President CANNOT order the VP to break a Senate vote according to his wishes (and the President cannot remove the VP for failing to do so).

This role is the sole active Constitutional responsibility of the VP, and cannot be delegated or controlled by the Executive branch. (also, as an aside, the VP receives the same pension as Senate members, not the pension of those in the Executive branch).

Historically, the VP originally had a quite active role as President of the Senate. Our first VP, John Adams, presented the legislative agenda and controlled the Senate procedurally. This was left vague by the founders, and over time our procedural rules have changed. However, ONLY RECENTLY has the VP had an ACTIVE role in the Executive branch, since the Carter administration. This has not always been the case, and sadly I'm disappointed in seeing such ignorance in our nation's history.

Frankly, as a matter of separation of powers, I think the VP should not be involved with the Executive, and should have her office fully funded by the Senate. The Executive has become too powerful.

Cheney's argument was that because (in his opinion) the VP cannot be ordered by the President to act, the office of the VP is not subject to Executive orders. The problem is that he was hiding using Executive privilege for years now, and as a practical matter the VP office has been delegated certain powers by the Executive and therefore has become part of the "4th branch" of government, as an administrative office (the bureaucracy). Thus, for those roles in which Cheney's office has become an Executive, he should be subject to Executive orders.

RealDisagreer: he said collaboration, not decision making. All presidents seek advice of their VP's.

He said he'd be in the room giving advice on every major decision. That's far, far more than most Vice President have ever had, with the exceptions of Cheney and Mondale. And, like I said, if you think that's been a good model, that's fine. I don't think it has been.

DeltaXi65: She's running for Vice President, not law professor.

So you think that a person whose job it is is to defend the constitution doesn't need to know what it is?

Fascinating.

KaponoFor3: FlashHarry: you know biden knows his shiat but misspeaks from time to time.

What's a Bosniac?

As amazing as it sounds, that wasn't a mistake. Bosniak is another term for Bosnian Muslim.

quickdraw: So you think that a person whose job it is is to defend the constitution doesn't need to know what it is?

Fascinating.

You can defend the Constitution without having a lawyer's knowledge of it. Every federal civil servant, from the janitors on up have to swear to defend the Constitution. You think all of them know it as well as an attorney? Of course not.

DeltaXi65: And, like I said, if you think that's been a good model, that's fine. I don't think it has been.

I think anyone who is offered Biden's insight on foreign policy ought to take it and use it wisely. The guys an uber foreign policy geek. I don't always agree with his solutions but his analysis is usually dead-on.

DeltaXi65: quickdraw: So you think that a person whose job it is is to defend the constitution doesn't need to know what it is?

Fascinating.

You can defend the Constitution without having a lawyer's knowledge of it. Every federal civil servant, from the janitors on up have to swear to defend the Constitution. You think all of them know it as well as an attorney? Of course not.

That is perhaps the stupidest thing I've heard all week. If you don't understand it, how on earth can you defend it? By standing in front of it? You realize it would be words, right? There's no one actually attacking the Constitution with, you know, knives, right?

There's a big heavy chunk of plexiglass and officers doing that now. Palin would be good for that job, except plexiglass is mostly clear.

quickdraw: I think anyone who is offered Biden's insight on foreign policy ought to take it and use it wisely. The guys an uber foreign policy geek. I don't always agree with his solutions but his analysis is usually dead-on.

He's gotten it right, and he's gotten it wrong. He voted against the first Iraq war. And if you think this go around was wrong, he voted the wrong way on it too. He's had a long career, and he knows his stuff, but he's been on the wrong side of a number of fairly critical issues, even in his area of expertise.

DeltaXi65: quickdraw: So you think that a person whose job it is is to defend the constitution doesn't need to know what it is?

Fascinating.

You can defend the Constitution without having a lawyer's knowledge of it. Every federal civil servant, from the janitors on up have to swear to defend the Constitution. You think all of them know it as well as an attorney? Of course not.

Fine - she can be a janitor. I'm sure she's qualified to defend the constitution by cleaning toilets.

So far only 6 debate threads. I guess we are lucky this time.

My biggest problem with Biden was one of ideology. His answer on what he's learned or changed his opinion on..."I led the fight against Bork because I believe that the ideology of the judge is important in deciding if they should be on the bench."

I guess he just greenlit the Republicans for stalling any judge who is a Democrat then. His ideology is different, therefore he must be wrong. But, he's been a judge for 20 years, graduated highest in his lawschool and has been lauded by friend and foe alike. Too bad he's from the [other] party.

Palin...she didn't hurt herself. Not sure she helped either. I don't think she changed any minds...but just reinforced the ones who already have an opinion on her.

DeltaXi65: quickdraw: I think anyone who is offered Biden's insight on foreign policy ought to take it and use it wisely. The guys an uber foreign policy geek. I don't always agree with his solutions but his analysis is usually dead-on.

He's gotten it right, and he's gotten it wrong. He voted against the first Iraq war. And if you think this go around was wrong, he voted the wrong way on it too. He's had a long career, and he knows his stuff, but he's been on the wrong side of a number of fairly critical issues, even in his area of expertise.

Did you realize you're agreeing with me?

/your trollfu is weak today.

honeymaid8: That is perhaps the stupidest thing I've heard all week. If you don't understand it, how on earth can you defend it? By standing in front of it?

I take it you never served in the military, no? Every enlisted person and officer in the United States military takes an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." It's right there in the opening sentence. No, I don't expect every single member of the military or every federal government employee to have a lawyer's understanding of the Constitution.

DeltaXi65: And if half the morons in my Con Law class didn't know what they were, I don't know why you think the average American will.

Biden should know all of that stuff. He's a lawyer and former chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Palin's not a lawyer, never served in the federal government, and never had a real need to. She's running for Vice President, not law professor.

Truth.

honeymaid8: That is perhaps the stupidest thing I've heard all week. If you don't understand it, how on earth can you defend it? By standing in front of it? You realize it would be words, right? There's no one actually attacking the Constitution with, you know, knives, right?

There's a big heavy chunk of plexiglass and officers doing that now. Palin would be good for that job, except plexiglass is mostly clear.

You're letting your dislike of Palin cloud your ability to reason. I'm not saying she doesn't need to understand it, nor have I. I'm saying she doesn't need to have a lawyer's understanding of it. Being able to get a 100% on DamnYankees' Con Law exam questions is irrelevant to whether or not she understands the job.

The fact that she wants a specific portfolio that focuses on her strengths, rather than Biden's "I'll be there for every major decision" should make those of you who question her competence a little happier. She won't be trying to give advice on things she knows nothing about, unlike Biden.

Here's my problem with Biden -- he never once addressed Palin's (valid) point regarding all his criticisms of Obama and praise of McCain pre-VP selection. He had some caustic things to say about Obama.

KaponoFor3: What's a Bosniac?

biatch, you almost made me laugh.

I_C_Weener: So far only 6 debate threads. I guess we are lucky this time.

My biggest problem with Biden was one of ideology. His answer on what he's learned or changed his opinion on..."I led the fight against Bork because I believe that the ideology of the judge is important in deciding if they should be on the bench."

I guess he just greenlit the Republicans for stalling any judge who is a Democrat then. His ideology is different, therefore he must be wrong. But, he's been a judge for 20 years, graduated highest in his lawschool and has been lauded by friend and foe alike. Too bad he's from the [other] party.

Palin...she didn't hurt herself. Not sure she helped either. I don't think she changed any minds...but just reinforced the ones who already have an opinion on her.

I thought the Bork comment was fairly ridiculous, considering Biden voted to approve Scalia. Saying Bork was too ideological, but then voting for Scalia doesn't make a lot of sense.