But more if you're on scholarship and are still working full-time. (And hell? We still work less than the woman who cleans our house)

I'll sell mine for $250,000. Cash or paypal.

Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

Hurr hurr lawyers are evil hurr hurr

This is very bad economics. It does not take into account the notion of marginal value or opportunity cost.

Does anyone really think that people who can get into and through law school represent a random sample of those with BA degrees? In order for this claim to be valid, it is necessary to take into account differences between the avg lawyer and the average BA holder for the following: motivation, intelligence, quality of the BA institution, family background, geography, and a bunch of other stuff not worth listing out here.

DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

And the reason people "need" lawyers is because of other lawyers.

"Lawyers are like nuclear missiles. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them, they fark up everything." - Larry the Liquidator Other People's Money

I'm pretty sure St. Thomas More went to heaven.

Lawyer salaries are pretty bimodal and most of them end up in the lower spectrum (i.e. $30-40k).

dustman81: DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

And the reason people "need" lawyers is because of other lawyers.

"Lawyers are like nuclear missiles. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them, they fark up everything." - Larry the Liquidator Other People's Money

Yeah. Lawyers aren't a requirement in a system based on law or anything like that.

DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

no...they're still hated even if you 'need' them. and you only 'need' them because we have a litigious society.

It's incredibly easy to hate lawyers until you've been injured, arrested, detained illegally, denied by an insurance company accountant, or any of the other myriad of situations that arise in life that call for someone with legal training.

But until then bring on the lawyer jokes and scorn while thinking you'll never possibly need a lawyer.

Civil suits were one of the reasons the Roman Empire failed.

deltabourne: Lawyer salaries are pretty bimodal and most of them end up in the lower spectrum (i.e. $30-40k).

Except that the article listed the MEDIAN lawyer salary... which means by definition that 50% of lawyers make more, 50% make less.

deltabourne: Lawyer salaries are pretty bimodal and most of them end up in the lower spectrum (i.e. $30-40k).

The problem with this strategy is this:

Theaetetus: But more if you're on scholarship and are still working full-time. (And hell? We still work less than the woman who cleans our house)

I can't think of a good school where you could plausibly work full-time during your J.D. and still get grades good enough for a six-figure start.

bigforearms: deltabourne: Lawyer salaries are pretty bimodal and most of them end up in the lower spectrum (i.e. $30-40k).

The problem with this strategy is this:

Theaetetus: But more if you're on scholarship and are still working full-time. (And hell? We still work less than the woman who cleans our house)

I can't think of a good school where you could plausibly work full-time during your J.D. and still get grades good enough for a six-figure start.

Oh F. My quotes got switched. Should preview before post.

ihatedumbpeople: DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

no...they're still hated even if you 'need' them. and you only 'need' them because we have a litigious society.

What does "litigious society" even mean? Do people not even read the Constitution anymore?

One third of our government is the judicial branch. Our society is meant to be integrated with a rule of law system.

Do you have a will? Then you're part of a "litigious society".

Have you ever signed a contract? Then you're part of a "litigious society".

Ever voted for or against someone based on their support of a law? Then you're part of a "litigious society".

Not available for comment

This of course assumes you can find a job in the first place.

bigforearms: deltabourne: Lawyer salaries are pretty bimodal and most of them end up in the lower spectrum (i.e. $30-40k).

The problem with this strategy is this:

Theaetetus: But more if you're on scholarship and are still working full-time. (And hell? We still work less than the woman who cleans our house)

I can't think of a good school where you could plausibly work full-time during your J.D. and still get grades good enough for a six-figure start.

Part-time work is definitely an option for this. I'm a full-time law student and couldn't even imagine working more than a few hours a week (if that), but a lot of people go to school at night and work all day.

Very misleading. The graduates in the top 10% of their class make ridiculous salaries (especially those from top tier schools), while the rest fight over the scraps and really don't make nearly as much as lay people imagine a lawyer makes. It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

and of course by "part-time work" i mean part-time school. Need coffee.

Oh boy, another lawyer argument! I'm sure people will present nuanced, well-reasoned opinions in here!

Don't welcome me to Fark, whippersnapper. I've been here longer than you (most likely).

lol @ "litigious society." Try to come up with a way to keep a civilization without a set of laws, then get back to me.

trancemission: It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

Please go read the definition of "median." Preferably in a dictionary.

trancemission: Very misleading. The graduates in the top 10% of their class make ridiculous salaries (especially those from top tier schools), while the rest fight over the scraps and really don't make nearly as much as lay people imagine a lawyer makes. It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

It's more than the top 10%.

mistervague: This of course assumes you can find a job in the first place.

This. The supply of lawyers now vastly exceeds demand in most US cities. I graduated in May and I'm still looking. I know I have to be hired by November though because otherwise it would lower our schools "% employed within 6 months of Graduation" on the US News & World Report Rankings. And we can't have that.

DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

And lawyers do their level best to make sure everyone needs one.

/+10 to subby for headline

bigforearms: I can't think of a good school where you could plausibly work full-time during your J.D. and still get grades good enough for a six-figure start.

Incorrect. Georgetown has a part-time program. George Washington, I think, does as well. Many people work as patent agents in the PTO, or even for law firms, and still do fine. Those that work for firms have their education paid by those firms. And they don't even need to do well because their backgrounds will catapult them.

Gosh, you know, because it isn't like the law is a system humming under everything else, making civilized life basically possible.

You should read the Uniform Commercial Code sometime. You'd be surprised how much the law is woven into everything you do on a daily basis.

I mean, I'm paying for the privilege of being forced to realize that.

DamnYankees: dustman81: DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

And the reason people "need" lawyers is because of other lawyers.

"Lawyers are like nuclear missiles. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them, they fark up everything." - Larry the Liquidator Other People's Money

Yeah. Lawyers aren't a requirement in a system based on law or anything like that.

Nah, I think it's pretty reasonable to have every last person in America expected to know the full details of every law, national, local and state, and be able to defend themselves, and expect them to properly prosecute others based on that.

trancemission: Very misleading. The graduates in the top 10% of their class make ridiculous salaries (especially those from top tier schools), while the rest fight over the scraps and really don't make nearly as much as lay people imagine a lawyer makes. It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

How to the outliers at the top impact the MEDIAN... the top lawyer could be making $900 Trillion a year and it wouldn't budge the MEDIAN...

The real tragedy here is that it implicitly assumes the reason most people are in law school (or any graduate school) is the money. When I was getting my masters they used to preach stats like this all the time. It's actually a retention strategy designed to keep educational instructions full. "OMG, don't drop out. You are gonna be RICH!!!! (soto voice: one day)".

Frankly, if you are getting a advanced degree for the money, you should be shot on sight. It's exactly this "money money money" attitude that got us into the economic mess we are in.

Chalji: ihatedumbpeople: DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

no...they're still hated even if you 'need' them. and you only 'need' them because we have a litigious society.

What does "litigious society" even mean? Do people not even read the Constitution anymore?

One third of our government is the judicial branch. Our society is meant to be integrated with a rule of law system.

Do you have a will? Then you're part of a "litigious society".

Have you ever signed a contract? Then you're part of a "litigious society".

Ever voted for or against someone based on their support of a law? Then you're part of a "litigious society".

No, I think they'd like all of those benefits without having to involve the icky, expensive litigation process.

Perhaps when there's a disagreement concerning those wills or contracts, they'd rather dispense with a fair hearing before an impartial and informed decisionmaker, and resort to a duel or something.

ihatedumbpeople: DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

no...they're still hated even if you 'need' them. and you only 'need' them because we have a litigious society.

We have a society based on laws, not a 'litigious society.' By the way, most lawyers aren't litigators.

By your definition, most every country on the planet is a 'litigious society.' Can you name any culture in world history that had no laws?

Monty845: trancemission: Very misleading. The graduates in the top 10% of their class make ridiculous salaries (especially those from top tier schools), while the rest fight over the scraps and really don't make nearly as much as lay people imagine a lawyer makes. It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

How to the outliers at the top impact the MEDIAN... the top lawyer could be making $900 Trillion a year and it wouldn't budge the MEDIAN...

kronicfeld: trancemission: It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

Please go read the definition of "median." Preferably in a dictionary.

I apologize for my bad choice of terms (perhaps I should just stick with "avereage"), but you get my point.

I'm an aspiring lawyer so I'm really getting a kick...
=]

Holy Hell!

Is this the thread where I laugh about the company in town that had a lawyer send us a letter claiming tortuous interference when I've been working in this town, doing the same thing I always have, for longer than they've been in business? I told my lawyer I'd love to see this go to court so I could make fun of their lawyer after they lose. Especially since my daughter has babysat for their lawyers kids more than a couple times.

nashBridges: kronicfeld: Hurr hurr lawyers are evil hurr hurr

Oh hell, get a sense of humor about it. There are a good many lawyers who are insufferable douchebags. It's a profession that attracts that type of person.

I'm an engineer, and my profession attracts masturbating social misfits who deserve an "earth surprise" award every time they manage to procreate. I don't pretend otherwise.

And yes, sometimes my wife is an insufferable douchebag. To be fair, sometimes I'm a masturbating social misfit.

So, architecture attracts what kind of people? The sexy kind?.

The author doesn't account for opportunity cost either. Many individuals who enter law school could have gone on to other professions that pay more (or less). That being said, he doesn't account for money foregone while in school as well...

It's worth a hell of a lot more than $700K NPV if you don't go to a shiatty school or into academia afterwards.

The median salary is meaningless -- there's a tremendous skew towards the best schools, certain markets, practice areas, and whether you're federal or state, etc. Everyone I graduated with (Duke, '00) started with a salary well beyond the $100k they're quoting in the article. And that was 8 years ago. Kids I knew who went to second or third tier law schools were lucky to get jobs, unless they were in the top 5-10% of their class. Most of them were happy to make $35-40k their first year out. And they're creaming themselves to break $100k, now.

The absolute #1 test of how much money a JD is worth is what school you got it from. In the vast majority of cases you can't even get through the front door of a top firm unless you went to a top school. Without a top degree or class rank you're either working for a second rate firm or grinding it out on your own hoping to hit a big PI case.

The author (Drexel) is kidding himself if he thinks that most of his colleagues are going to clear $100k anytime soon.

Also, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=three+bagger

Litig8r:

The author (Drexel) is kidding himself if he thinks that most of his colleagues are going to clear $100k anytime soon.

Sorry, students, not colleagues.

And take a look at the author's CV -- he's in an entirely different universe than his students. Columbia, Harlan Fiske, Editor of the CJL, Skadden right out of school.

His students are going to be grinding it out for PI and insurance defense firms, hoping to crack $50k within 2 years of graduation.

HeadbangerSmurf: Is this the thread where I laugh about the company in town that had a lawyer send us a letter claiming tortuous interference when I've been working in this town, doing the same thing I always have, for longer than they've been in business? I told my lawyer I'd love to see this go to court so I could make fun of their lawyer after they lose. Especially since my daughter has babysat for their lawyers kids more than a couple times.

Dude, lawyer is not the preferred nomenclature. "Attorney" please.

/that is all

Chalji: It's incredibly easy to hate lawyers until you've been injured, arrested, detained illegally, denied by an insurance company accountant, or any of the other myriad of situations that arise in life that call for someone with legal training.

But until then bring on the lawyer jokes and scorn while thinking you'll never possibly need a lawyer.

i don't hate lawyers, but i think their population needs to be contained, much like west nile virus carrying mosquitos

trancemission: Monty845: trancemission: Very misleading. The graduates in the top 10% of their class make ridiculous salaries (especially those from top tier schools), while the rest fight over the scraps and really don't make nearly as much as lay people imagine a lawyer makes. It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

How to the outliers at the top impact the MEDIAN... the top lawyer could be making $900 Trillion a year and it wouldn't budge the MEDIAN...

kronicfeld: trancemission: It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

Please go read the definition of "median." Preferably in a dictionary.

I apologize for my bad choice of terms (perhaps I should just stick with "avereage"), but you get my point.

I thought median was the preferred statistic for large populations.

Anyways I like how all the lawyers are getting so defensive in this thread. I kinda take pride in the fact that people hate my profession.

Barakku: DamnYankees: dustman81: DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

And the reason people "need" lawyers is because of other lawyers.

"Lawyers are like nuclear missiles. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them, they fark up everything." - Larry the Liquidator Other People's Money

Yeah. Lawyers aren't a requirement in a system based on law or anything like that.

Nah, I think it's pretty reasonable to have every last person in America expected to know the full details of every law, national, local and state, and be able to defend themselves, and expect them to properly prosecute others based on that.

On the other hand you should not need a lawyer for everything. A simplified legal language would go a long way towards reducing the need for lawyers. But lawyers oppose such efforts just as they and accountants oppose a simplified tax code.

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" Tacitus, Roman Historian, 55-117 A.D.

Litig8r: The absolute #1 test of how much money a JD is worth is what school you got it from. In the vast majority of cases you can't even get through the front door of a top firm unless you went to a top school. Without a top degree or class rank you're either working for a second rate firm or grinding it out on your own hoping to hit a big PI case.

True as hell. I refused to go to law school unless one of the top ones let me in. And now that they have, I can tell you it's total bullshiat. We do no more work than any other law school, and we study the same shiat. The industry is so built on 'prestige' its ridiculous.

The article's calculation fails to consider two key quantifiable factors which are relevant to the discussion.

- I see no debt financing costs. In order to attend law school, most students will assume a tremendous amount of debt (in addition to previous student debt). The financing costs of these student loans would take away a significant portion of the $470k NPV.

- It is simply assumed that both the Lawyer and non-Lawyer have equal labor inputs to earn this income stream. However, I would speculate that any B.A. earning $47k is working close to 40 hrs/week, while a J.D. earning $89k closer to 60 hrs/week.

Thus, with accurate financing and labor-input calculations, the NPV of the J.D. project would be far less (albeit still positive and financially prudent).

Now if we could calculate the intangible costs (stress, lifestyle, ethics, health), the J.D. investment is about at the same level as Arizona beachfront property...

HeadbangerSmurf: Is this the thread where I laugh about the company in town that had a lawyer send us a letter claiming tortuous interference when I've been working in this town, doing the same thing I always have, for longer than they've been in business? I told my lawyer I'd love to see this go to court so I could make fun of their lawyer after they lose. Especially since my daughter has babysat for their lawyers kids more than a couple times.

I don't know what is it you do, but allow me to introduce you to Spur v. Del Webb^ and the concept of a purchased injunction.

DamnYankees:
True as hell. I refused to go to law school unless one of the top ones let me in. And now that they have, I can tell you it's total bullshiat. We do no more work than any other law school, and we study the same shiat. The industry is so built on 'prestige' its ridiculous.

Yup. I didn't do a damned thing when I was in law school. And once I had a job lined up? I didn't even bother to go to class. I spent my third year shooting pool, racing motorcycles, and hitting on Carolina undergrads.

The "my dick is bigger than yours because I went to X school" in the industry is hysterical. I've never seen a profession as obsessed with it as law.