THE FACTS: Obama was right that Kissinger called for meetings without preconditions. McCain was right that Kissinger did not call for such meetings to be between the two presidents.

Neither did Obama. If you're going to fact check, at least have some context.

McCain wants to tax your health benefits.

Sun God: McCain wants to tax your health benefits.

McCain want to flag the fungible molecules from Russia Putin rears the narrow border of the state Alaska's neighbor Canada's favorite executive of The United States of America needs reform from a maverick regulation for less lobbyist's bailout health care for main street and wall street.

thamike: THE FACTS: Obama was right that Kissinger called for meetings without preconditions. McCain was right that Kissinger did not call for such meetings to be between the two presidents.

Neither did Obama. If you're going to fact check, at least have some context.

Here's where Obama needs to start using the phrase "My Administration" as opposed to "I."

Everyone intelligent knows that "I will meet with..." doesn't mean, in Obama's own words, "invite them for tea." However, to the sound-bite-enthralled talking heads, "I will meet with..." makes a great packaged controversy.

"My administration will reach out to..." or "My state department will make efforts to..." is safer, and to be honest, a more realistic description of what his plans are.

Cubist Robot Party: "My administration will reach out to..." or "My state department will make efforts to..." is safer, and to be honest, a more realistic description of what his plans are.

Well, as of tonight, he has made it crystal clear what he would do, so I guess the sound-bite crowd needs to find something else. I was actually quite surprised McCain kept coming back to things that Obama had made monumentally clear, and misrepresenting him. I mean, I expected a little bit of that, but this was just painful to watch. He started sounding like Palin.

I'm sure careful phrasing will keep the short bus riders from misinterpreting everything they hear, that should work.

thamike: Cubist Robot Party: "My administration will reach out to..." or "My state department will make efforts to..." is safer, and to be honest, a more realistic description of what his plans are.

Well, as of tonight, he has made it crystal clear what he would do, so I guess the sound-bite crowd needs to find something else. I was actually quite surprised McCain kept coming back to things that Obama had made monumentally clear, and misrepresenting him. I mean, I expected a little bit of that, but this was just painful to watch. He started sounding like Palin.

It may serve as a good wake-up call to Obama on that front. He's played the messaging game exceedingly well thus far, but he's been weaker in terms of the talking points and sound bites. His acceptance speech at the convention showed some signs that he was aware of that weakness. McCain's behavior tonight may hammer home that he needs to focus a bit more on the sound bite aspect of his delivery.

The more I think about it, the more I think tonight will turn out to be a big victory for Obama. I still think McCain performed slightly better overall, but, in terms of the long-term takeaway, Obama's ahead.

thamike: Well, as of tonight, he has made it crystal clear what he would do, so I guess the sound-bite crowd needs to find something else. I was actually quite surprised McCain kept coming back to things that Obama had made monumentally clear, and misrepresenting him. I mean, I expected a little bit of that, but this was just painful to watch. He started sounding like Palin.

And this is why I'll never go into national level politics: I would've been unable to restrain myself from strangling the life out of him after the third or fourth outright lie.

McCain: So while Senator Obama was praying toward Mecca, I was talking to veterans.
Obama: John, I'm not a Muslim. Never been one. Remember that Wright guy that everyone was talking about? Pastor. Of my church.
McCain: See, he won't discuss the real issue of him wanting to enact Sharia law in America...
Obama: *facepalm*

Mordant: I'm sure careful phrasing will keep the short bus riders from misinterpreting everything they hear, that should work.

You'd be surprised what people will latch on to. You're right, of course, that the majority of people who will misinterpret something obvious were the people who'd never vote against their team anyway. However, there is the manufactured controversy aspect that requires much more vigilance. If your message is crafted well enough, you don't provide those little footholds for the talking heads to turn into an Outrage.

Uchiha_Cycliste: McCain want to flag the fungible molecules from Russia Putin rears the narrow border of the state Alaska's neighbor Canada's favorite executive of The United States of America needs reform from a maverick regulation for less lobbyist's bailout health care for main street and wall street.

Thank goodness Thomas Pynchon isn't running for president.

Ah, facts and reason. How I love and miss you so much.

Uchiha_Cycliste: McCain want to flag the fungible molecules from Russia Putin rears the narrow border of the state Alaska's neighbor Canada's favorite executive of The United States of America needs reform from a maverick regulation for less lobbyist's bailout health care for main street and wall street.

Easily the most sensible thing I've heard said yet.

azmoviez: Ah, facts and reason. How I love and miss you so much.

Don't get too attached. They won't be around for very long.

McCain: Eisenhower was ready to resign if Normandy failed

Facts: Um.... No.

THE FACTS: Some of the abuses that occurred stemmed from the 1999 repeal of a Depression-era law that separated banks from brokerages. In legislation supported by former President Clinton and Robert Rubin, now a top Obama adviser and Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, this separation was ended - allowing banks and insurance companies to sell securities.

Uh huh. What was the name of that bill?

Occam's Chainsaw: thamike: Well, as of tonight, he has made it crystal clear what he would do, so I guess the sound-bite crowd needs to find something else. I was actually quite surprised McCain kept coming back to things that Obama had made monumentally clear, and misrepresenting him. I mean, I expected a little bit of that, but this was just painful to watch. He started sounding like Palin.

And this is why I'll never go into national level politics: I would've been unable to restrain myself from strangling the life out of him after the third or fourth outright lie.

McCain: So while Senator Obama was praying toward Mecca, I was talking to veterans.
Obama: John, I'm not a Muslim. Never been one. Remember that Wright guy that everyone was talking about? Pastor. Of my church.
McCain: See, he won't discuss the real issue of him wanting to enact Sharia law in America...
Obama: *facepalm*

So agreed. I'm quoting Mencken here:

"The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre - the man who can most easily adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.

The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

Written in 1920, but I've always wondered how Mencken would've taken 8 years under a Bush Presidency.

impaler: THE FACTS: Some of the abuses that occurred stemmed from the 1999 repeal of a Depression-era law that separated banks from brokerages. In legislation supported by former President Clinton and Robert Rubin, now a top Obama adviser and Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, this separation was ended - allowing banks and insurance companies to sell securities.

Uh huh. What was the name of that bill?

Don't forget, reports must be "fair and balanced," meaning each side gets a counterpoint, even when arguments are flimsy or dead wrong. Otherwise, it's affirmation of "bias."

/Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
//Yeah, that Gramm
///Mental recession, my ass....

submitter: Everybody lies



Agrees.

That's a lie.

There's a shocker.

You mean a debate of all hit & run talking points wasn't the complete truth?

What I thought was shocking was the fact that McCain did not even look at Obama, not once.

slobarnuts: What I thought was shocking was the fact that McCain did not even look at Obama, not once.

Neither of them can look at each other. It's a fundamental thing, and not surprising. A good marriage counselor asks it all the time. "Look at your wife and tell her all the things you hate about her." The husband will refuse, and the wife has never considered it.

Sun God: Neither of them can look at each other.

Incorrect.

Relatively Obscure: Incorrect.

They try. That's a specious photo, but perhaps relevant. It's quite interesting if you've experienced it in your personal life. People who hate you will avoid you.

Sun God: slobarnuts: What I thought was shocking was the fact that McCain did not even look at Obama, not once.

Neither of them can look at each other.

Check again. Obama looked over at McCain plenty of times, but it's difficult to act as if making eye contact with someone who's studiously avoiding it.

Maybe McCain was doing it to keep his contempt and temper under control. Maybe the sight of Obama makes him angry. Beats me.

I was most interested in the Kissinger argument, and the resulting bickering over preconditions. Turns out that Barry was on top of it.

It seems like McCain was too busy trying to drive home how absolutely frightening it would be to have someone associate our diplomatic measures with these people's agendas to admit that not engaging in diplomacy with people who haven't already caved has not, and will not, work.

It's the same as not talking to Billy from down the street until he stops hanging out with Johnny. If Billy's hanging with Johnny, why the hell should he stop doing so just to have you ask to borrow his Game Boy?

I certainly hope others have at least enough critical thinking ability to discern what "without precondition" means. Then again, I have been let down by the critical thinking capabilities of others in the past.

Sun God: They try. That's a specious photo, but perhaps relevant. It's quite interesting if you've experienced it in your personal life. People who hate you will avoid you.



Specious too?

guys
guys
Guys
GUYS
GUYS

Don't forget about Somalia

McCain learned that if he sustained eye contact he would be beaten.

When you really dislike someone, it is almost impossible to look them in eye. It could be a co-worker or your boss.

Relatively Obscure: Specious too?

Ahem. I'm going to say that, although that picture came from an article ABOUT the debate, details indicate it might not be FROM the debate. But he is a-lookin', at least.

Sun God: McCain learned that if he sustained eye contact he would be beaten.

When you really dislike someone, it is almost impossible to look them in eye. It could be a co-worker or your boss.

I am not so sure about that. I find the more I dislike somebody the more I tend to stare right into their right eye. I have found it makes them uneasy and gives me an immediate advantage. Especially if I have worn one blue and one clear contact that day.

\ ya that's always good for a reaction.

Tardmitter headline: Everybody lies.

TFA: McCain lies about his own record and statements. McCain lies about Obama's record and statements.

First, why is it important if McCain looked at Obama or not? I mean people want to focus on issues right? So focus on the meat of the debate not whether or not McCain made eye contact with Obama.

Second, if what I'm hearing is true and Obama was the main Partisan at that sit down with Bush and the Dems blame it on McCain, I'd be pretty peaved as well, and would probably avoid looking at him.

Though McCain missed some really good "Flustered Obama" looks throughout the debate.

What I found interesting is that McCain only had the creepy "I'm miffed" smile a couple of times while Obama was clearly flustered often.

The debate was still close, but considering half of the Foriegn Policy debate was on Economics, I didn't expect McCain to walk out a clear winner. He was hamstrung but did better than expected on that point.

gothelder: I am not so sure about that. I find the more I dislike somebody the more I tend to stare right into their right eye. I have found it makes them uneasy and gives me an immediate advantage. Especially if I have worn one blue and one clear contact that day.

It's interesting. One thing I like to do (yes, I'm a dick) is catch someone's eye and then walk very firmly and rapidly towards them while talking about what needs to be done. Your best workers won't back down, and will probably chuckle. Those are the guys who will do the work.

CanisNoir: First, why is it important if McCain looked at Obama or not? I mean people want to focus on issues right? So focus on the meat of the debate not whether or not McCain made eye contact with Obama.

He said he looked Putin the eye, now I have serious doubts he looked at him at all.

I was dissapointed to see that this wasn't represented
McCain:As far as our other issues that he brought up are concerned, I know the veterans. I know them well. And I know that they know that I'll take care of them. And I've been proud of their support and their recognition of my service to the veterans.

And I love them. And I'll take care of them. And they know that I'll take care of them. And that's going to be my job. But, also, I have the ability, and the knowledge, and the background to make the right judgments, to keep this country safe and secure.

The truth: McCain slowly tortures and kills veterans in a Vietnamese prison. Probably cannibalizes them too.

CanisNoir: Second, if what I'm hearing is true and Obama was the main Partisan at that sit down with Bush and the Dems blame it on McCain, I'd be pretty peaved as well, and would probably avoid looking at him.

Yes, but messages from your teeth don't count towards having "heard" something.

No only McCain lies.

and he is mean.


/Waaaaahhhh

I don't think McCain purposely avoided looking at Obama - I just think he's gone blind from all the non-blinking

I came here to check for the obligatory House reference and was not disappointed.

/McCain has Lupus?

Jensaarai: I came here to check for the obligatory House reference and was not disappointed.

/McCain has Lupus?

It's not Lupus.

The GOP needs a new car.

CynicalLA: The GOP needs a new car.

They already have that - a clown car

McCain told the bear DNA story again

From FactCheck.Org

Paternity Tests for Bears


The ad goes on to criticize an earmark that provided "$3 million to study the DNA of bears in Montana." This is not the first time McCain has poked fun at the bear project. He first mentioned it on the Senate floor, while discussing the 2003 Omnibus Appropriations Bill that included funding for the project:

McCain (Senate floor, Feb. 13, 2003): Because these appropriations are never discussed with nonmembers of the Appropriations Committee, one can only imagine and conjure up an idea as to how this might be used. Approach a bear: That bear cub over there claims you are his father, and we need to take your DNA. Approach another bear: Two hikers had their food stolen by a bear, and we think it is you. We have to get the DNA. The DNA doesn't fit, you got to acquit, if I might.

Good laugh lines, maybe, but the United States Geological Service's Northern Divide Grizzly Bear Project didn't study DNA for paternity tests or forensics. Rather, it explored a means of estimating Montana's grizzly bear population by analyzing bear fur snagged on barbed wire. The project was funded partly by federal appropriations - about $1 million per year in add-ons to USGS in 2003 through 2005, $400,000 in 2006 and $300,000 in 2007, plus a $1.1 million earmark through the Forest Service in 2004, according to the study's principal researcher, Katherine C. Kendall. Part of that funding was doled out as part of the omnibus appropriations bill McCain discussed in February 2003.

Despite the fun McCain had ridiculing the bear project on the Senate floor, he didn't actually try to remove it from the bill. He did introduce several amendments, including three to reduce funding for projects he considered wasteful or harmful, but none removing the grizzly bear project appropriations. And despite his criticisms, he voted in favor of the final bill.

DeRosso: CynicalLA: The GOP needs a new car.

They already have that - a clown car

Her vagina must be tired.

I_Hate_Iowa: McCain: Eisenhower was ready to resign if Normandy failed

Facts: Um.... No.

That was a really large error. I certainly believed it when he said it. I wonder what percentage of people will find out that he lied about even that.

CanisNoir: First, why is it important if McCain looked at Obama or not?

Because body language is a window to what people are really thinking. It is very unusual not to look at a person that you are suposedly talking to.

Then again, I suspect that he was coached to not look at him. Still that has it's own implications.

I felt like McCain won. Bummed me out.

Lando Lincoln: I_Hate_Iowa: McCain: Eisenhower was ready to resign if Normandy failed

Facts: Um.... No.

That was a really large error. I certainly believed it when he said it. I wonder what percentage of people will find out that he lied about even that.

That's not the first time I've heard him tell that story either.

For those like CanisNoir who do not see a big deal in McCain not looking at his opponent the entire night:

The style of the debate was one in which the two candidates were to truly debate, i.e. address each other. Even when McCain addressed Obama, he would not look at him. That is not only a sign of being angry with someone but also a sign of being uncomfortable with the subject of the debate. You do not look at the other person so that you do not betray to them where you are weakest.

It is actually a style of DEFENSE in debates and it is frowned upon during them. It makes you look weak in the eyes of the judges (here it would be voters).