yeah...

McCain lied in the debate? SHOCKING.

Surprise, McCain is a shameless liar.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE turn this into a campaign commercial, Obama!

That people still think they can lie in the age of constant media surveillance is stupefying. And McCain does it every day.

I've spoken with Hank directly on the phone and I'm getting a real kick out of this thread.

/post later

Yeah right. Next thing you know he'll be saying Poland isn't under Soviet domination, either.

But...but...Kissinger is John's friend! And John smirked about it and everything!

My world. She is crushed.

ToxicMunkee: But...but...Kissinger is John's friend!

actually, supposedly kissinger released a statement saying he agreed about the president meeting without lower level talks first.

unfortunately, obama clearly said that was what he had in mind.

burndtdan: about the president meeting without lower level talks first.

clarify: that skipping right to the president is a bad idea.

but like i said, that is what obama said, he would have lower level diplomacy first.

It's pretty much over now. Next Thursday will end it completely, unless McCain can figure out a way to get Palin to, um, withdraw.

bronyaur1: It's pretty much over now. Next Thursday will end it completely, unless McCain can figure out a way to get Palin to, um, withdraw.

on a side note, that's probably the only type of birth control she approves of.

I don't think this is McCain lying. It's just McCain not having any idea what he's talking about.

But McCain says he knows Henry Kissinger! Henry Kissinger is a friend of his!!!

Confabulat: But McCain says he knows Henry Kissinger! Henry Kissinger is a friend of his!!!

AND OBAMA IS NO GODDAM HENRY KISSINGER, MY FRIENDS!

Great. Obama and Kissenger agree on something. Lovely.

Kissenger is a farking monster.

Confabulat: But McCain says he knows Henry Kissinger! Henry Kissinger is a friend of his!!!

Palin called him naive after meeting with him.

Hobodeluxe: Confabulat: But McCain says he knows Henry Kissinger! Henry Kissinger is a friend of his!!!

Palin called him naive after meeting with him.

Which I find rich. Absolutely rich.

quickdraw: Great. Obama and Kissenger agree on something. Lovely.

Kissenger is a farking monster.



that's just stinkin' thinkin'

bronyaur1: It's pretty much over now. Next Thursday will end it completely, unless McCain can figure out a way to get Palin to, um, withdraw.

He's going to have to. She's pathetic. After the debate tonight, Joe Biden was on every TV stations talking up Obama, answering questions - you know, doing the job of the VP.

Palin...nowhere.

I didn't see Biden on TV? I saw my local news. Which probably what most other people saw.

DamnYankees: bronyaur1: It's pretty much over now. Next Thursday will end it completely, unless McCain can figure out a way to get Palin to, um, withdraw.

He's going to have to. She's pathetic. After the debate tonight, Joe Biden was on every TV stations talking up Obama, answering questions - you know, doing the job of the VP.

Palin...nowhere.

Biden was on? Where?

Was Kissinger referring to US Presidential talks or lower level talks? Big difference.

Benevolent Misanthrope: DamnYankees: bronyaur1: It's pretty much over now. Next Thursday will end it completely, unless McCain can figure out a way to get Palin to, um, withdraw.

He's going to have to. She's pathetic. After the debate tonight, Joe Biden was on every TV stations talking up Obama, answering questions - you know, doing the job of the VP.

Palin...nowhere.

Biden was on? Where?

Umm, everywhere. I saw him on both CBS and NBC. I heard he was also on NBC and some cable stations.

Kissinger said he was referring to low level talks, not at the presidential level. If somebody has a video saying other wise please post a link.

king_nacho: I didn't see Biden on TV? I saw my local news. Which probably what most other people saw.

why do you think that?

think people don't have basic cable?

crypticsatellite: Was Kissinger referring to US Presidential talks or lower level talks? Big difference.

king_nacho: Kissinger said he was referring to low level talks, not at the presidential level. If somebody has a video saying other wise please post a link.

he probably didn't clarify.

but obama did. and he said multiple times he wasn't talking about jumping straight to presidential talks.

remember his joke about not inviting them over for tea?

king_nacho: Kissinger said he was referring to low level talks, not at the presidential level. If somebody has a video saying other wise please post a link.

"ABC News' Rachel Martin Reports: Former U.S.Secretary of State Henry Kissinger today told an audience in Washington, DC that the U.S. should negotiate with Iran "without conditions" and that the next President should begin such negotiations at a high level." (new window)

IMHO, this will be the most damning and effective soundbite from the campaign for Obama. He can spin it in so many ways:

McCain is dishonest
McCain is senile and out of touch
McCain doesn't even know what his own advisers are saying
McCain will say anything to win
McCain's own foreign policy experts agree with me

etc.

RedEyedWings: king_nacho: Kissinger said he was referring to low level talks, not at the presidential level. If somebody has a video saying other wise please post a link.

"ABC News' Rachel Martin Reports: Former U.S.Secretary of State Henry Kissinger today told an audience in Washington, DC that the U.S. should negotiate with Iran "without conditions" and that the next President should begin such negotiations at a high level." (new window)

oh.

snap.

burndtdan
58% have basic cable or higher, the other 42% don't and who is to say that the ones with Basic cable were watching a cable news network as opposed to their local station?

RedEyedWings and burndtdan

here is the article the blog is quoting, where does it say the President should negotiate? It only said the US should, when asking the question should the US negotiate, Kessinger said "Yes, I think we should."

http://deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/1,5620,695261802,00.html?printView =true

Not once did he say the US president should sit down with the Iranian President.

king_nacho: Kissinger said he was referring to low level talks, not at the presidential level. If somebody has a video saying other wise please post a link.

Obama didn't mean the presidential level, either. The word "personally" was never used.

"[Would you be] willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?"

"I would," Obama said. "And the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them - which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration - is ridiculous."

burndtdan: he probably didn't clarify.

but obama did. and he said multiple times he wasn't talking about jumping straight to presidential talks.

remember his joke about not inviting them over for tea?

Well, I do recall Obama saying that as President he would meet without preconditions with Ahmadinejad. If he changed his mind, more power to him and I like that--if you find your original position is wrong, you change it. That's good.

The question is whether the next President will have the luxury of changing policy in mid-stride...the problem is in such a case, you can't take back something you've already given; if you meet with Ahmadinejad without preconditions, you are essentially condoning his positions, you are giving him power, you are accepting him and his policies.

So Obama was using the royal "I" when he said "I would"?

as in "I would have one of my cabinet members, or diplomats meet with them"

That isn't what it sounds like to me?

crypticsatellite: Well, I do recall Obama saying that as President he would meet without preconditions with Ahmadinejad. If he changed his mind, more power to him and I like that--if you find your original position is wrong, you change it. That's good.

He never said "personally meet". Period.

king_nacho: Kissinger said he was referring to low level talks,


.....and that the next President should begin such negotiations at a high level."


I think it's nice that Kissinger backpedals for a friend. I think's it's telling that you so readily believe him and jump to the talking-point like a dog on a bone.

That is exactly how it came across, the question was would you meet with them, and he said "I would"

Video (new window)

hillbillypharmacist: crypticsatellite: Well, I do recall Obama saying that as President he would meet without preconditions with Ahmadinejad. If he changed his mind, more power to him and I like that--if you find your original position is wrong, you change it. That's good.

He never said "personally meet". Period.

O RLY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1dSPrb5w_k

king_nacho: That isn't what it sounds like to me?

So when Obama said, "And the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them - which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration - is ridiculous", he was talking about personally meeting leader to leader with these countries, and not in a more general sort of government-to-government way? That sounds like a pretty weak contention to me.

Bill_Wick's_Friend
That was the reporters quote, not Kissinger's

crypticsatellite: O RLY?

He never said the word "personally" in that video. Just FYI.

hillbillypharmacist
That is what it sounded like to me, and used examples of other Presidents speaking directly to the leaders of other countries to support his argument.

crypticsatellite: if you meet with Ahmadinejad without preconditions, you are essentially condoning his positions, you are giving him power, you are accepting him and his policies.

I'm sure that Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan would be very interested to hear that.



You probably shouldn't unload weapons-grade stupidity on people who can use the Google.

hillbillypharmacist: So when Obama said, "And the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them - which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration - is ridiculous", he was talking about personally meeting leader to leader with these countries, and not in a more general sort of government-to-government way? That sounds like a pretty weak contention to me.

When the question was whether he would be willing to meet with them in the first term of his administration, and his answer was "I would," how can you argue against that?

king_nacho: That is what it sounded like to me, and used examples of other Presidents speaking directly to the leaders of other countries to support his argument.

Those examples had, at first, other government contacts leading up to leader-to-leader negotiations over time. There's no indication that Obama would do any different, considering his consistent praise of such an approach.

crypticsatellite: burndtdan: he probably didn't clarify.

but obama did. and he said multiple times he wasn't talking about jumping straight to presidential talks.

remember his joke about not inviting them over for tea?

Well, I do recall Obama saying that as President he would meet without preconditions with Ahmadinejad. If he changed his mind, more power to him and I like that--if you find your original position is wrong, you change it. That's good.

The question is whether the next President will have the luxury of changing policy in mid-stride...the problem is in such a case, you can't take back something you've already given; if you meet with Ahmadinejad without preconditions, you are essentially condoning his positions, you are giving him power, you are accepting him and his policies.

why don't you take a step back for a second. remove semantic quibbles. remove the tiniest details. stop trying to play gotcha on some minutia and consider the spirit of the strategy.

kissinger fundamentally agrees with obama.

now you might argue that they disagree about in what order things should happen, but that's not what john mccain was debating. mccain was debating, and has been all along, that we shouldn't meet with him without preconditions, under any structure.

remember all the talks about being an appeaser?

king_nacho: hillbillypharmacist
That is what it sounded like to me, and used examples of other Presidents speaking directly to the leaders of other countries to support his argument.

Dude, I'm betting that if Obama had said, "My dog has fur," it would have sounded to you like, "I will sell our entire nation to Hugo Chavez for a $25 Best Buy gift card."

hillbillypharmacist: crypticsatellite: O RLY?

He never said the word "personally" in that video. Just FYI.

No, he didn't. Instead, he said, "I would."

Are you seriously arguing this?

king_nacho: That was the reporters quote, not Kissinger's

So you're saying the reporter is lying? That's what you're gonna hang your hat on?

Weak sauce.