The vagueness McCain speaks compared to Obama is really stark, but memes are memes.

teh secret socialist moolim is gonna raise my taxes !!!

I was watching that rally on MSNBC, and someone up front passed out, presumably due to the heat. He stopped the speech to say, "Don't worry this happens all the time, let the EMTs in."

He continued to say that it was the heat and that everyone should have some more water, but I couldn't help but laugh and think: 'This happens all the time. I am just too awesome.'

Watching McCain's response now. He keeps talking about lack of leadership and a plan from the Obama camp and has now veered off into the surge. Seriously? That's all you got?

Please get back to the topic at hand. You know, the economy?

No plan indeed.

/GObama

"Tax Whitey" ?

But all we'll hear about is how Obama has no plan, is just a celebrity, and has no experience. Meanwhile the McCain camp will Wharrgarbl along just so we can have a horse race the news channels can talk about.

DamnYankees: The vagueness McCain speaks compared to Obama is really stark, but memes are memes.

Political campaigns are about what sticks, not what's true. My in-laws still spout the "empty suit" meme even after we showed them Obama's detailed tax plan. It's really a case of truth vs. truthiness.

Pope George Ringo: "Tax Whitey" ?



The only thing Obama wants to do is TAX THAT ASS.

6 point plan??
I prefer the 5 Point Exploding Heart Technique

But does Obama have The Readiness and The Confidence?

Pisses me off that people still like to say Obama has "no plans" and is an "empty suit." It's like they believe that if they stick their fingers in her ears and ignore all the evidence to the contrary, their "Empty Suit" rhedoric will still be valid.

Psychotropic: But does Obama have The Readiness and The Confidence?



"What do ya'll think, Pardnar? I'm not just ready, I'm the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly."

1) Declare Sharia, which would render all interest rates illegal.
2) Seize all assets from capitalist dog infidel financial institutions that had been charging interest as penance for their past sins.
3) Offer every American family that converts to Islam a one-time payment, dubbed Allah Moolah, for their conversion.
4) Use money seized from capitalist dog infidel financial institutions to fund Allah Moolah.
5) Declare Jihad on all non-converted American families, using newly paid Alla Moolah converts as footsoldiers.
6) Raise the Iranian flag over the White House, go bowling with newly appointed Emperor Ahmadinejad.

A former Fannie Mae executive has written to The New York Times in an effort to escalate Democrats' pushback to a McCain campaign ad accusing Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) of guilt by association with former officials of the mortgage giant.

The McCain ad, called "Advice," says: "Fannie Mae collapsed. Taxpayers? Stuck with the bill. Barack Obama. Bad advice. Bad instincts. Not ready to lead."

The former executive's letter, not yet published, was provided to Politico:

To The Editor:

Yesterday, Senator John McCain released a television commercial attacking Barack Obama for allegedly receiving advice on the economy from former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines. From the stump, he has recently tried tying Senator Obama to Fannie Mae, as if there is some guilt in the association with Fannie Mae's former executives.

It is an interesting card for Senator McCain to play, given that his campaign manager, Rick Davis, was paid by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac several hundred thousand dollars early in this decade to head up an organization to lobby in their behalf called The Homeownership Alliance. ...

I worked in government relations for Fannie Mae for more than 20 years, leading the group for most of those years. When I see photographs of Sen. McCain's staff, it looks to me like the team of lobbyists who used to report to me. Senator McCain's attack on Senator Obama is a cheap shot, and hypocritical.


Sincerely,

William Maloni
Fannie Mae Senior Vice President for Government and Industry Relations (1983-2004)

CougarJeff: Obama [...] has no experience

They can't use that as a talking point anymore. Can they?

beve: They can't use that as a talking point anymore. Can they?

no. now they are trying to say he's responsible for the economy

What I really want to know is if he'll blink before doing it?

I predict "I blame Obama" will become the new meme sometime early this January. His ass will not have had time to warm the Oval Office chair before people are screaming about how bad he's been for the economy.

Pocket Ninja: ...go bowling with newly appointed Emperor Ahmadinejad.

The bowling is what makes it poetry.

LadyHawke: I predict "I blame Obama" will become the new meme sometime early this January. His ass will not have had time to warm the Oval Office chair before people are screaming about how bad he's been for the economy.

What are you talking about? McCain is already blaming Obama for the economy tanking.

Why exactly should we bail out homeowners who cannot afford their mortgage payments?

His 6 point "plan"

First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.
What does this mean?

Second, taxpayers shouldn't be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.
Okay... agreed.

Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.
Protected how? Details please. What if they don't recoup their investment?

Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.
Why? You bought a house with no money down and you can't afford the mortgage? Start packing.

Fifth, this is a global crisis, and the United States must insist that other nations join us in helping secure the financial markets.
Sounds fine to me.

Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I've been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.
How many years have you been calling for these changes? Did you write some legislation calling for these changes? No? McCain did but the Democrats voted it down.

And finally, this plan can't just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street.
What the hell does this mean? Could you be any more vague?

His 6 point plan is but words in the wind for now, lets see if he acts on them when it comes time to consider the bailout bill.

This is all just sickening.

The only people who believe that Obama is an empty suit are the people who WANT to believe that Obama is an empty suit.

And, facts be damned, they WILL keep believing it.

LadyHawke: I predict "I blame Obama" will become the new meme sometime early this January. His ass will not have had time to warm the Oval Office chair before people are screaming about how bad he's been for the economy.

Hell, they'll blame him if McCain wins.

Now I understand everyone's shiat's emotional right now. But I've got a 3 point plan that's going to fix everything. Number 1: We've got this guy Not Sure. Number 2: He's got a higher IQ than any man alive! And number 3: He's going to fix EVERYTHING!

/hotlinked for double the pleasure

mr_larry: First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.
What does this mean?

It means there must be a limit to the amount of money spent on bailouts and there needs to be oversight of the recovery so they don't keep coming back for more money from the government.

mr_larry: Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.
Protected how? Details please. What if they don't recoup their investment?

Presumably, this means if/when these institutions rebuild themselves, they will have to pay back the loan.

mr_larry: Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.
Why? You bought a house with no money down and you can't afford the mortgage? Start packing.

Because its bad for everyone if we have an epidemic of homelessness. Moralizing doesn't help the situation.

mr_larry: And finally, this plan can't just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street.
What the hell does this mean? Could you be any more vague?

That's a slogan. It's not one of the 6 points. More of an overarching ethos.

Y'know, I had a short email exchange with Dad about this latest bailout attempt just this morning. It took me SEVEN emails (along with muliple linkage and copy/pasting) before Dad would acknowledge that Bush's plan was 'above judicial review'. When he finally DID acknowledge that yes, Bush's plan WAS to be absent any checks and balances, he stopped the conversation.

In every conversation this week, Dad has tried to blame all the market woes on Obama. Or the Democrats. Whenever I provide documented evidence of Republican complicity (or incompetence) he changes the subject. It took me SEVEN emails just to get Dad to look at the agreement currently under discussion up on the Hill right now. Seven emails and constant pressure before he even acknowledged it existed and then 2 more reminders that he was *against* socialism in all it's forms. And in the end, he just changed the subject and walked away from the computer in a huff (or so I presume - i'm at work right now and he's at home).

My father isn't a stupid man. But I can't figure out why he cannot (or will not) see that the Republican party of today is NOT the Republican party of 20 years ago. He derides me for voting third party and thinks Palin is just wonderful. I am at a complete loss to understand his point of view. It just doesn't jibe with the evidence I see before me. And when I try to show him this same evidence, he changes the channel back to fox and shuts down his brain.

mr_larry: What does this mean?

It means that the U.S. Government should 1) pay closer attention to the same types of companies that are being bailed out right now, so that it doesn't snowball into a taxpayer-supplied $700 billion emergency bailout.

mr_larry: Protected how? Details please. What if they don't recoup their investment?

Well, these are bullet points, but bailouts should come with a guarantee to taxpayers. (something Obama can't do just yet, as he is not siting in the White House.


Why? You bought a house with no money down and you can't afford the mortgage? Start packing.

It's a bit more complex than that. Most of these people got swindled by companies promising a low rate based on a booming housing market, even hough they knew full well that the bubble would burst, the values would plummet, and the rates would skyrocket.

How many years have you been calling for these changes? Did you write some legislation calling for these changes? No? McCain did but the Democrats voted it down.

a)Well, probably two, at least.

b)Tax breaks and incentives for companies that try to reduce dependency on foreign oil, etc. Voted to raise the Minimum Wage (which hasn't been raised since Clinton)

c) McCain voted to cut nearly $40 billion from the federal budget by imposing substantial changes on welfare, child support and student lending program. And what is this terrific legislation that McCain introduced?

mr_larry: What the hell does this mean? Could you be any more vague?


Yeah, it's vague. It's also redundant. I see what the gist is, though.

How can anybody even think of voting for that inexperienced Obama fellow any more when he's clearly to blame for all the problems we're currently facing? I really don't understand you guys any more.

Weaver95: My father isn't a stupid man. But I can't figure out why he cannot (or will not) see that the Republican party of today is NOT the Republican party of 20 years ago. He derides me for voting third party and thinks Palin is just wonderful. I am at a complete loss to understand his point of view. It just doesn't jibe with the evidence I see before me. And when I try to show him this same evidence, he changes the channel back to fox and shuts down his brain.

It's called willful ignorance.

You frequent the politics tab enough to see it in action on a daily basis.

Oh yeah, I heard he also fathered a black baby.

/and he's a sekrit mooslim

Weaver95: And when I try to show him this same evidence, he changes the channel back to fox and shuts down his brain.

I remember reading a study where they introduced people to a falsehood that was represented as fact (Obama's a muslim, for instance), then followed it up later with indisputable proof that it was false. Many people in the study then accepted that it was false. However, a significant number of people were actually more convinced that it was true. They couldn't deal with being wrong, and thus proving so just hardened them.

These are the same people that listen to Rush Limbaugh and vote Republican today.

Two Dogs Farking: Oh yeah, I heard he also fathered a black baby.

TWO of them!! That old tomcat.

thamike: It's a bit more complex than that. Most of these people got swindled by companies promising a low rate based on a booming housing market, even hough they knew full well that the bubble would burst, the values would plummet, and the rates would skyrocket.

It's actually a lot more complex than that. A lot of these people got swindled by companies that lied to them about what was in their loan agreements, some of which involved literally forging their signatures on a separate agreement then claiming it was the original.

To compound the problem, the loan company would then sell the loan on the secondary market, so the people responsible for defrauding the consumer no longer were in charge of administrating the loan, so the people doing the foreclosing is by and large not the ones who committed the crime originally. The best you can claim is they should have exercised better oversight before buying the loans.

If you want to see a fairly good list of what these companies did, you should read the complaint by the State of California against Countrywide.

bulldg4life: It's called willful ignorance.

You frequent the politics tab enough to see it in action on a daily basis.

Yeah, but I *know* Dad is better than that. It's like he cannot admit to being wrong. What makes it worse is when I hear him rail against Pelosi and ponder what the market downturn might (or might not) have done to her. All this while he's sleeping on my couch and been unemployed for 2 years. I dunno...I'd figure that by now he'd be a bit more sympathetic to the financial plight of middle america given that without MY help he'd be sleeping in a box out in an alleyway somewhere. The rants about the evils of welfare are particularly difficult to listen to these days.

thamike: TWO of them!! That old tomcat.

Two of them? IN A ROW?

Weaver95: bulldg4life: It's called willful ignorance.

You frequent the politics tab enough to see it in action on a daily basis.

Yeah, but I *know* Dad is better than that. It's like he cannot admit to being wrong. What makes it worse is when I hear him rail against Pelosi and ponder what the market downturn might (or might not) have done to her. All this while he's sleeping on my couch and been unemployed for 2 years. I dunno...I'd figure that by now he'd be a bit more sympathetic to the financial plight of middle america given that without MY help he'd be sleeping in a box out in an alleyway somewhere. The rants about the evils of welfare are particularly difficult to listen to these days.

I think your old man and my old man should get together and go bowling.

Neeek Thanks. I didn't feel like typing that much.

T-Servo: I think your old man and my old man should get together and go bowling.

And get all my uncles some shoes, too. They'll buy the first round of pitchers.

Two Dogs Farking: Two of them? IN A ROW?

Actually the second one is younger than the first one. It was an ugly mishap involving a contraceptive and a time machine.

Weaver95: But I can't figure out why he cannot (or will not) see that the Republican party of today is NOT the Republican party of 20 years ago.

My dad figured it out. He voted for Goldwater, Nixon (twice) and every other Republican candidate. I think he switched the second Bush (George H.) term to Clinton. He is fiscally very conservative and thinks the Republican party became fiscally irresponsible.

He also was appalled that we invaded Iraq and thinks George W. is the worst president he has seen.

He still has hope, and still is a Republican.

mr_larry: Why exactly should we bail out homeowners who cannot afford their mortgage payments?

No one is talking bailout for them. What we're talking about is using this leverage to buy them some time or let them refinance at a realistic rate.

His 6 point "plan"

First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.
What does this mean?

It means oversight and accountability. Yeah I know. Something the GOP is not familiar with. It means specificity and approval by review not just one man's judgment.


Second, taxpayers shouldn't be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.
Okay... agreed.

Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.
Protected how? Details please. What if they don't recoup their investment?

That means this is a loan. To be paid back. Not a gift. Rules must be set for payment.

Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.
Why? You bought a house with no money down and you can't afford the mortgage? Start packing.

While this is the case for some it is not the case for others.
Lenders used deceptive tactics to hide costs and to conflate the consequences of ARMs. It does no one any good to have them bankrupt on the loan. Not them ,not the ban and not the taxpayer who is now standing behind the loan.

Fifth, this is a global crisis, and the United States must insist that other nations join us in helping secure the financial markets.
Sounds fine to me.

Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I've been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.
How many years have you been calling for these changes? Did you write some legislation calling for these changes? No? McCain did but the Democrats voted it down.

Actually Obama started calling for it early in 2007 and even wrote a letter to Bernanke and Paulsen about doing something to stave this off. Both he and McCain had voiced concerns in 07 but until this summer McCain was still not calling for more regulations.

And finally, this plan can't just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street.
What the hell does this mean? Could you be any more vague?

It means there needs to be some quid pro quo. That the mortgage owners need to be cut some slack by the banks and the taxpayers must be paid back.

Weaver95: And when I try to show him this same evidence, he changes the channel back to fox and shuts down his brain.

ask him exactly what would the party would have to do to lose his support? ask him if he would have tolerated the same thing from Democrats?

The scary thing is that there are people out there who can say "terrorist fist jab" and "sex-ed for kindergarten children" with a straight f*cking face. As for the latter phrase, Palin and McCain are just two of them.

thamike: The scary thing is that there are people out there who can say "terrorist fist jab" and "sex-ed for kindergarten children" with a straight f*cking face. As for the latter phrase, Palin and McCain are just two of them.

yup. What I don't get is how people just LAUGH at people like that, isntead of realizing "Hey, these are the people that are farking up the country... maybe it isn't so funny after all."

Hobodeluxe: Weaver95: And when I try to show him this same evidence, he changes the channel back to fox and shuts down his brain.

ask him exactly what would the party would have to do to lose his support? ask him if he would have tolerated the same thing from Democrats?

I know my parents, who vote republican, would switch sides IN A SECOND should it be a pro-life democrat vs a pro-choice republican. Being pro-life is their issue and the only one they care about, and it annoys me sometimes. Not the issue itself, but rather that that is a deal breaker right there for them.

My mother? I'm not surprised by her. Discussing ANYTHING with her is like talking to a screaming brick throwing a tantrum. But my father, who I have the most respect for an human on this planet and who has so much intelligence and common sense, being a single issue voter like that just boggles my ****ing mind.

/They vote republican
//Their children, however, vote democrat.

The government sees disaster ahead if they don't go ahead with the bailouts. I think "the big failure" will just be slower in coming. We're spending all of this money for a softer landing, but its still going to be very bad. I just don't think this will help and we'll lose the money yet again.

And I still have no sympathy for people who defauled on their loans. If you don't understand the terms of your mortgage you shouldnt sign it. And if you're providing information that your incoem is higher than it really is then you should be arrested you piece of crap!

RobertBruce: And I still have no sympathy for people who defauled on their loans. If you don't understand the terms of your mortgage you shouldnt sign it. And if you're providing information that your incoem is higher than it really is then you should be arrested you piece of crap!

shouldn't that go for the banks who borrowed the money too?

Weaver95: bulldg4life: It's called willful ignorance.

You frequent the politics tab enough to see it in action on a daily basis.

Yeah, but I *know* Dad is better than that. It's like he cannot admit to being wrong. What makes it worse is when I hear him rail against Pelosi and ponder what the market downturn might (or might not) have done to her. All this while he's sleeping on my couch and been unemployed for 2 years. I dunno...I'd figure that by now he'd be a bit more sympathetic to the financial plight of middle america given that without MY help he'd be sleeping in a box out in an alleyway somewhere. The rants about the evils of welfare are particularly difficult to listen to these days.

Well, shiat. I didn't know he was couch surfing you, Weaver. That explains it all. It's the Black Mooslims' fault he doesn't have a jerb.

NeverDrunk23: My mother? I'm not surprised by her. Discussing ANYTHING with her is like talking to a screaming brick throwing a tantrum. But my father, who I have the most respect for an human on this planet and who has so much intelligence and common sense, being a single issue voter like that just boggles my ****ing mind.

I'd put it to them like this. What kind of American would let a party bankrupt their nation,start unnecessary wars based on lies,rape the constitution with their spying on citizens and torture,shame our good name and reputation with the rest of the world and reward them for it by keeping them in power?

Just what brand of patriotism is that?
One that would ruin the country and not hold them accountable no reward them because they dangle that carrot in front of you promising to let you have it one day.
do you really think they'll give you the carrot when it's worked so well for so long?

Hobodeluxe: NeverDrunk23: My mother? I'm not surprised by her. Discussing ANYTHING with her is like talking to a screaming brick throwing a tantrum. But my father, who I have the most respect for an human on this planet and who has so much intelligence and common sense, being a single issue voter like that just boggles my ****ing mind.

I'd put it to them like this. What kind of American would let a party bankrupt their nation,start unnecessary wars based on lies,rape the constitution with their spying on citizens and torture,shame our good name and reputation with the rest of the world and reward them for it by keeping them in power?

Just what brand of patriotism is that?
One that would ruin the country and not hold them accountable no reward them because they dangle that carrot in front of you promising to let you have it one day.
do you really think they'll give you the carrot when it's worked so well for so long?

They'll just say something like I'm too comparatively young to see the whole picture or that I'm getting my news from a bias, anti-Bush source. Basically, they'll just brush it off and treat it as if I'm overreacting.

I told my father about my thoughts on it, and he said vote for who I want to vote for. While I don't agree with his political determination, he was always understanding with any decision I make. My mother would just yell at me into submission like she does to everyone, so I'm not even going to bother discussing anything with her. She's too damn stubborn.