you know, i don't really have a problem with someone, anyone, tying the open racism that drives a lot of republican support firmly around the neck of the republican candidate.

at least until such a time that they stop accepting said support with a wink and a nod.

I fully expect both sides to spin like farking tops in a campaign. What I don't expect is the numerous and repeated outright lies from the McCain campaign. This is NOT a "both sides are bad" campaign anymore than teaching that the earth is either flat or round is just teaching the controversy.

No, I don't think Obama should have done an ad like this. Even though McCain enjoys the tepid support of racist piece-of-shiat Rush Limbaugh, it doesn't mean that we need to tie the two of them together on this particular issue especially.

Lando Lincoln: No, I don't think Obama should have done an ad like this. Even though McCain enjoys the tepid support of racist piece-of-shiat Rush Limbaugh, it doesn't mean that we need to tie the two of them together on this particular issue especially.

Agreed.

FTA:

My point here is not to claim that Obama's misleading attacks are somehow worse that McCain's. Most of this stuff is child's play compared to the whole McCain-sponsored "lipstick on a pig" kerfluffle, which I characterized as "idiotic" and "condescending." And I agree with National Journal's Stuart Taylor, Jr., that the Arizona senator "has lately been leading the race to the bottom" of the barrel. What's more, Obamans have a point when they say their man has the right to fight fire with fire. It would be political suicide for Obama to allow McCain to keep hitting below the belt without landing a few low blows himself. But that's precisely the problem. If you'll recall, the general-election campaign began with paeans to the "politics of civility" and promises from both candidates that they would "break the partisan gridlock in Washington" once elected. Now, not so much. The shift to polarization and distortion was probably inevitable. But as Peggy Noonan notes in her latest column, "it invites charges of winning bad. And if you win bad in a 50/50 nation, it makes it really hard to govern."

But Obama REFUSED to meet with John McCain in those 'town hall' meetings. This was all pretty inevitable after that.

To clarify my point:

I hate this sort of politics. And it disappoints me when my candidates engage in it.

But it is an all but inevitable reaction to the sort of mudslinging that we have seen already.

The article indicates that Rush doesn't support McCain precisely because of his divergence with the other Republicans on the issue of Immigration Reform, so this is a low blow.

Still, all things considered, maybe it wasn't low enough.

When did Newsweek hire 12-year olds to write political pieces. Seriously, my cat's older than him.

"The main problem here is that tying McCain to Limbaugh--especially on immigration reform--is deeply unfair."

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Ah, Tabatha! I was about to say:

Nice right hook, Obama!

/illegal
//but gratifying
///NEXT TIME

Quoted for truth:
Us, and them
And after all were only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows its noz what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.
Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who.
Up and down.
But in the end its only round and round.
Havent you heard its a battle of words
The poster bearer cried.
Listen son, said the man with the gun
Theres room for you inside.

/RIP Richard Wright
//GObama!

So it's unfair to tie McCain to Limbaugh because they didn't always agree?

OK, then it's also unfair to tie Obama to Wright because they didn't always agree.

Suck it, hypocrites.

So it's true what mother said, bullies really are cowards at heart.

burndtdan: you know, i don't really have a problem with someone, anyone, tying the open racism that drives a lot of republican support firmly around the neck of the republican candidate.

Even when Obama blatantly lies multiple times in one ad to do it?

FTA

Then there's whole "McCain supported tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas" line of attack.

While it's true that McCain has voted to retain a long-standing principle of the U.S. tax system that allows companies that keep their profits overseas to defer domestic taxation indefinitely, the only actual "tax break" that McCain is currently proposing is one that would lower the top corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent.

I'll go through the other ones as well - but how is this a refutation?

That immigration ad is way out there, I'm glad he's getting called on it.

That said, I don't think it's half as bad as the 'sex ed to kids' ad from McCain's campaign.

OK, so according to the article, "fighting fire with fire" is a mark against Obama? He stood there being noble while getting donkey punched for almost two years and all he got was nearly beaten by Hillary Clinton and repeatedly libeled by McCain.

I had high hopes that he would be able to win without getting dirty, but now that he can't, I say light 'em up. The Dems need to stop settling for moral victories and start winning actual elections.

_{the eagleton fix is in...biden is heading out the door}

/PECS!

with apologies for Wall of Text -

FTA
"This is another flat-out lie from a dishonorable campaign that is increasingly incapable of telling the truth," he said. "Frank Raines has never advised Senator Obama about anything--ever." That might be true. But the problem is that it contradicts a July Washington Post profile of Raines (cited by McCain in the ad), which reported that Raines has "taken calls from Barack Obama's presidential campaign seeking his advice on mortgage and housing policy matters." As the New Republic's Jason Zengerle--another Obama supporter--concludes: "Seeing as how neither Raines nor the Obama campaign bothered to contradict that information when the article came out, and didn't do so until only after the McCain ad aired, you can't really blame the McCain campaign for trying to make hay of the situation. And you certainly can't accuse it of dishonorably telling a lie."

Clearly, perspective is everything, but as the whole 'Raines works for Obama' line has been debunked, that would make the statement that, well, 'Raines works for Obama' untrue.

What the Obama campaign guy said was that this was another lie, from a campaign that tells a lot of lies.

Which is True.

helix400: Even when Obama blatantly lies multiple times in one ad to do it?

Citation needed.

I think my republitard friend, you need to learn, much as Herr Limbaugh needs to learn, that "facts" are not the same thing as "lies" and that YELLING ANGRILLY does not a cogent argument make. (not saying you specifically yelled, but Limbaugh and other repub talking heads)

Lando Lincoln: No, I don't think Obama should have done an ad like this. Even though McCain enjoys the tepid support of racist piece-of-shiat Rush Limbaugh, it doesn't mean that we need to tie the two of them together on this particular issue especially.

i don't like smear ads at all, but i also don't like the fact that the right has a seedy underbelly of media that spouts what often amounts to pure hate speech that are pretty much the breeding grounds for most smear campaigns in the first place, and i don't mind them being brought to light.

connecting it to mccain? bit of a stretch. connecting it to the republican party? not so much of a stretch.

they should have made this ad simply attacking the republican brand. would have been more legit.

After the ad tap dancing around Obama wanting to show kindergarten kids how to put a condom on, I say kick the old guy in the balls and spit on his corpse. But hey that's just me.

helix400: burndtdan: you know, i don't really have a problem with someone, anyone, tying the open racism that drives a lot of republican support firmly around the neck of the republican candidate.

Even when Obama blatantly lies multiple times in one ad to do it?

sorry, i'll never respect any argument that seeks to defend right wing talk radio.

did obama get a little mud on his hands? yes. am i sympathetic to rush limbaugh for it? not on your farking life.

burndtdan (favorite) 2008-09-19 07:15:37 PM

i don't like smear ads at all, but i also don't like the fact that the right has a seedy underbelly of media that spouts what often amounts to pure hate speech that are pretty much the breeding grounds for most smear campaigns in the first place, and i don't mind them being brought to light.

connecting it to mccain? bit of a stretch. connecting it to the republican party? not so much of a stretch.

they should have made this ad simply attacking the republican brand. would have been more legit.

Oh now you've done it. Cue the Robert Byrd pics in 3...2...

Skleenar: To clarify my point:

I hate this sort of politics. And it disappoints me when my candidates engage in it.

But it is an all but inevitable reaction to the sort of mudslinging that we have seen already.

you have to sway the racists and the idiots to your side to win

Obama should just go out there and say something like:

"My opponent engages in wide spread lies and disinformation whereas my message has mostly gone unheard. In the interests of fairness, I will now openly lie about my opponent's positions to play on people's fears and gain votes. McCain takes testosterone supplements because his balls never descended. Goodnight!"

I hate Chevy: After the ad tap dancing around Obama wanting to show kindergarten kids how to put a condom on, I say kick the old guy in the balls and spit on his corpse. But hey that's just me.

That and the "OMG Obama wants to k1ll your infantz!" one both (even though that's not technically McCain's ad). But still, like burndtdan said, he should've just put this out against the GOP. It would've been more effective.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
He did to us what we're constantly doing to him.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Jster422: with apologies for Wall of Text -

FTA
"This is another flat-out lie from a dishonorable campaign that is increasingly incapable of telling the truth," he said. "Frank Raines has never advised Senator Obama about anything--ever." That might be true. But the problem is that it contradicts a July Washington Post profile of Raines (cited by McCain in the ad), which reported that Raines has "taken calls from Barack Obama's presidential campaign seeking his advice on mortgage and housing policy matters." As the New Republic's Jason Zengerle--another Obama supporter--concludes: "Seeing as how neither Raines nor the Obama campaign bothered to contradict that information when the article came out, and didn't do so until only after the McCain ad aired, you can't really blame the McCain campaign for trying to make hay of the situation. And you certainly can't accuse it of dishonorably telling a lie."

Clearly, perspective is everything, but as the whole 'Raines works for Obama' line has been debunked, that would make the statement that, well, 'Raines works for Obama' untrue.

What the Obama campaign guy said was that this was another lie, from a campaign that tells a lot of lies.

Which is True.

But they spoke! On the phone!!!! Thus, anyone Obama has spoken to on the phone can be considered an adviser, and if he's spoken to anyone on the phone who's done something remotely bad, then Obama is JUST AS GUILTY!!!!111!!

helix400: burndtdan: you know, i don't really have a problem with someone, anyone, tying the open racism that drives a lot of republican support firmly around the neck of the republican candidate.

Even when Obama blatantly lies multiple times in one ad to do it?

That's right! You can only lie in an ad and get away with it if you're a Republican!

/or just not black

SnoreCriminal: Citation needed.

The Obama ad with McCain and Limbaugh lied in the following ways:

* Implied that McCain and Limbaugh share the same views. (So along with McSame, he's now McLimbaugh).
* Implied especially that Limbaugh's views on immigration are the same as McCain's views. (Are you kidding me? They're as opposite as night and day.)
* The ad lied by suggesting Limbaugh and McCain thought all Mexicans were dumb and stupid.
* And then lied by also suggesting Limbaugh and McCain want all legal Mexicans to shut up and get out. (But Limbaugh was arguing the opposite, because he was sarcastically poking fun at Mexico's laws, not the US's laws).
* Finally, not so much a lie, but the ad did blatantly create a racist/nationalism slur where none existed.

/Note: I don't like Limbaugh at all. McCain's ads blatantly lie. And Obamas ads blatantly lie.
//The most either side can cheer for is arguing which side lies less.

burndtdan: yes. am i sympathetic to rush limbaugh for it? not on your farking life.

Of course not. But you're obviously happy that Obama used blatant lies to get some racist point across.

Does McCain know how many houses he has yet?

lilbjorn: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
He did to us what we're constantly doing to him.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Dosn't make it right. If Obama lied on this, he needs to come clean.

Banky_The_Hack: I hate Chevy: After the ad tap dancing around Obama wanting to show kindergarten kids how to put a condom on, I say kick the old guy in the balls and spit on his corpse. But hey that's just me.

That and the "OMG Obama wants to k1ll your infantz!" one both (even though that's not technically McCain's ad). But still, like burndtdan said, he should've just put this out against the GOP. It would've been more effective.

I think it's effective though because of the continued daily vitriol Limbaugh spews. He will froth at the mouth and probably say something that will piss off Latinos even more. Limbaugh can't keep his mouth shut. His head will explode. He will play right into Obama camp's hands and do the work for them.

helix400: burndtdan: yes. am i sympathetic to rush limbaugh for it? not on your farking life.

Of course not. But you're obviously happy that Obama used blatant lies to get some racist point across.

Blatant lies? Limbaugh didn't say those things then?

A couple of days ago my girlfriend received a mass text message with the N-word in the subject line. The text said that Barack Obama was going to end free lunches for white kids.


I don't like Obama dropping himself anywhere near McCain's level (and he still isn't even close to dropping that low) but I also can appreciate the hate and racism that he is battling here that McCain doesn't have to deal with. In other words, I don't mind Obama borrowing a few of McCain/Rove's dirty tactics to make up for any ground he's lost to racist idiots.

Ah the race card. Once again has shown its Democratic Face. The Republicans will try to tell you im different, cause my name sounds funny, and cause im black... AND THEY HATE MEXICANS!!!

paulieY2J: Ah the race card. Once again has shown its Democratic Face. The Republicans will try to tell you im different, cause my name sounds funny, and cause im black... AND THEY HATE MEXICANS!!!

Yup. That's about right.

If people in this thread are saying that the only thing Limbaugh, Hannity, McCain, etc value more than winning is showing anger, and Obama thinks he has a way to turn that against them, I say go ahead and good luck.

But if what people are saying is that I'm having sex with their moms, I still agree.

/ Hi Mrs. Pendecast

As Limbaugh said on his show,

OBAMA IS A RACIST BAITER

He justs baits them racists to make 'em look like the fools they are!

And girls wearing short skirts, man, they DESERVE TO GET RAPED.

//republican off

Rush also loved to play the "obama Osama Obama" song to the tune to La Bamba. All's fair here. Limbaugh deserves every bit of criticism for being the right wing's "talent on loan from God". I think this is entirely appropriate. He's a hate mongering hypocrite.

helix400: Implied especially that Limbaugh's views on immigration are the same as McCain's views. (Are you kidding me? They're as opposite as night and day.)

Then McCain should clarify and point out to everyone how much he supports immigration reform. 'Cause he's kind of forgotten that the past two years.

I hate Chevy Rush also loved to play the "obama Osama Obama" song to the tune to La Bamba. All's fair here. Limbaugh deserves every bit of criticism for being the right wing's "talent on loan from God". I think this is entirely appropriate. He's a hate mongering hypocrite.

Rush is not a politician. He is an entertainer. He does parody songs, and joke about issues. It would be the equal of running and ad with all the dopey celebrities that support Obama, shaking hands with Hugo Chavez. They have nothing to do with the candidates.

SphericalTime: The article indicates that Rush doesn't support McCain precisely because of his divergence with the other Republicans on the issue of Immigration Reform, so this is a low blow.

When I saw the blowback against this ad, it occurred to me that this may be part of the plan - it forces McCain to clarify his position on immigration. It is not a good issue for McCain, considering the range of positions he's held on it. The far-right conservatives (like Rush) hated his support for Bush's plan, but Hispanics liked him for it. But in order to compete in the Republican primary, he stepped away from his reform position and took a tougher line.

But when is the last time you heard McCain talk about immigration? He doesn't want to, because whatever he says will piss off either the right or Latin-Americans, as well as highlighting his flip-flopping on the issue. It's a lose-lose for McCain - ignore the inaccuracy of the ad and let it sway people, or bring immigration back into the spotlight and look bad on the actual merits of his position(s) on the issue.

/Though now that Palin is on the ticket, he could have gay sex with an aborted Mexican fetus on national television and the conservative base would still vote for him.
//So look for him to pander to Hispanics...

If Obama would have just capitulated to McCain's town-hall demands, then none of the lies and smears would have been necessary.

He had it coming.

AkaDad:capitulated

I capitulated once.. just once!

Sorry good word!

Love Obama's "It's not a lie if we believe it." brigade here.

Interesting that so many of Obama's followers have basically become the crazy version of A Ron Paul supporter.