Starving your kids because you won't go to work is abuse...

GODDAMNITSOMUCH

No, get it right. Beating your kids with a stripped extension cord is abuse. Dumping your kids on a childcare facility is neglect.

You must neglect your kids or your career. Choose wisely.

Occam's Chainsaw: No, get it right. Beating your kids with a stripped extension cord is abuse. Dumping your kids on a childcare facility is neglect.

What i was gonna say.

Except i was trying to think of some way to crack wise about pedophile daycare workers. But I got nothin.

Totally agree. Don't have kids if you don't want to or can't afford to raise them yourselves. I don't care which parent does the primary caregiving, but it has to be a parent, not some stranger.

eventhelosers: You must neglect your kids or your career. Choose wisely.

Don't have kids?

I've always been against strangers watching my kids, but I don't criticize others who use day care in order to make ends meet. My wife and I have gone from both working full time with my mother-in-law watching the kids, to working full time/opposite shifts, to now me working part time 4am-8am and my wife working 9am-6pm, which has worked out great so far. I have a blast with my kids during the day, get a little alone time with the missus at night, and at the end of the month all the bills get paid.

Child abuse? Yea-ah. Child abuse? Yea-ah.
Subhuman bondage.

/reminds you to fight the real enemy

I don't think it's child abuse at all, but I do think it's a shame when people have to spend so much time working to pay for food/housing for their children that they don't get to spend any time with their children.

redcliffe: Totally agree. Don't have kids if you don't want to or can't afford to raise them yourselves. I don't care which parent does the primary caregiving, but it has to be a parent, not some stranger.

Accidents happen. Nothing is 100% effective as birth-control. If a DINK couple finds themselves "with child," you can't expect them to sell the house, the cars and pay off the credit cards within nine months so that they can live on one salary with an extra mouth to feed.

That said, maybe we should give more than 6 weeks maternity leave in this country. My wife hadn't even finished bleeding by the time she had to go back to work. Her Italian friend was shocked that my wife had to work up until the day she went into labor and had to go back after just a month and a half. In Italy the woman has the last three months of pregnancy off (with pay), three months after birth off (with pay) and the can have an additional three months (at half pay) if needed/wanted.

It's sad. Once upon a time there'd be grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins helping each other out. There was a support system of people who loved the kid and truly had their best interests at heart. Now they're just one in a crowd.

penthesilea: It's sad. Once upon a time there'd be grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins helping each other out. There was a support system of people who loved the kid and truly had their best interests at heart. Now they're just one in a crowd.

Pretty much what I came here to say. For most of human history, the extended family was the norm. In many places it still is.

Isn't childcare a good place for the little crotchfruits to interact and socialise with other little critters at the same early stage of their development and therefore help them become less of a precious snowflake by the time they have to go to school?

I obviously have no children.

Hindmost: Isn't childcare a good place for the little crotchfruits to interact and socialise with other little critters at the same early stage of their development and therefore help them become less of a precious snowflake by the time they have to go to school?

Also, children who spent time in day care have a lower incidence of getting sick as adults. And not just because they "got it all out of the way when they were younger." Evidence shows that their immune systems are better equipped to fight off infection.

Gecko Gingrich:That said, maybe we should give more than 6 weeks maternity leave in this country. My wife hadn't even finished bleeding by the time she had to go back to work. Her Italian friend was shocked that my wife had to work up until the day she went into labor and had to go back after just a month and a half. In Italy the woman has the last three months of pregnancy off (with pay), three months after birth off (with pay) and the can have an additional three months (at half pay) if needed/wanted.

I came in to agree with this. It'd also be nice if there was even limited paternity leave.

The company I work for gives new Dad's 6 weeks of their own paid leave (at 75%), but only in Europe.

aybara: I came in to agree with this. It'd also be nice if there was even limited paternity leave.

I asked pointedly and deliberately, "How much leave do I get?" I was told, "Take as much time as you need." I figured I'd take 10 days or two weeks. Less than a week in, the frantic, "zOMG!! Why are you taking so long?!!" phone calls started.

aybara: Gecko Gingrich:That said, maybe we should give more than 6 weeks maternity leave in this country. My wife hadn't even finished bleeding by the time she had to go back to work. Her Italian friend was shocked that my wife had to work up until the day she went into labor and had to go back after just a month and a half. In Italy the woman has the last three months of pregnancy off (with pay), three months after birth off (with pay) and the can have an additional three months (at half pay) if needed/wanted.

I came in to agree with this. It'd also be nice if there was even limited paternity leave.

The company I work for gives new Dad's 6 weeks of their own paid leave (at 75%), but only in Europe.

Sounds like liberal European communism to me.

My sister called me up yesterday after watching a Dr. Phil internet-scare show. She wanted to get some advice on how to deal with her two children and staying safe on the internet. She called me because I've been in IT for 20 years.

I told her to stop watching Dr. Phil first of all. Take that time and spend it with your kids on the internet, and get more in touch with your kids than some fat man on TV.

Big deal. Yes, it's not ideal to put your kid in a childcare center. But it's better than nothing. And what is it gonna change? Ooo, your kid might have some behaviorisms from you and some from other people? Wow, he'll be like...I dunno, every other farking kid ever.

Gecko Gingrich:
Accidents happen. Nothing is 100% effective as birth-control. If a DINK couple finds themselves "with child," you can't expect them to sell the house, the cars and pay off the credit cards within nine months so that they can live on one salary with an extra mouth to feed.

Abortions are a fairly effective method of birth control. If the kid's really an "accident", then it shouldn't be a problem.

The only problem with abortions is that people have a problem with performing them retroactively...

First 5 years are the most formative. Do you want your kids to turn out like you, or like some stranger? Do you want your kids socialized like loving intelligent relatives, or like other dominant maladjusted jerks?

Maybe if our nanny-state government wasn't confiscating half of peoples' incomes, then they wouldn't feel the need for another half-income (with the other half likewise confiscated) to get by. Insofar as the gov't does take so much, you CAN get by nicely on a lot less than Madison Ave. says you need.

penthesilea: It's sad. Once upon a time there'd be grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins helping each other out. There was a support system of people who loved the kid and truly had their best interests at heart. Now they're just one in a crowd.

THIS. We both work, but we decided to have a child because my husband's grandmother is retired and said if we had one, she would happily provide free daycare as long as we provided diapers and food. During the summers, when the mother in law (teacher) is off, she wants to watch him most the time. Family, dude.

aybara: Gecko Gingrich:That said, maybe we should give more than 6 weeks maternity leave in this country. My wife hadn't even finished bleeding by the time she had to go back to work. Her Italian friend was shocked that my wife had to work up until the day she went into labor and had to go back after just a month and a half. In Italy the woman has the last three months of pregnancy off (with pay), three months after birth off (with pay) and the can have an additional three months (at half pay) if needed/wanted.

I came in to agree with this. It'd also be nice if there was even limited paternity leave.

The company I work for gives new Dad's 6 weeks of their own paid leave (at 75%), but only in Europe.

California manages to be awesome about this. As long as you have state disability insurance deducted from your check, you are off the last 6 weeks of pregnancy (earlier if you end up with complications, at the OB's discretion) and the 6 weeks postpartum at 55% of your average gross pay. After that, you have the option of taking 12 more weeks under Paid Family Leave, 6 of which are paid, the last 6 are not. The father may also take these 12 weeks, with the same stipulations, though not at the same time as the mother. You can take the 12 weeks for the adoption of a new child as well, for bonding time. You can even break them up into several 2-week or more periods over the next year after birth/adoption. Very, very helpful, especially for nursing mothers.

Gecko Gingrich: Hindmost: Isn't childcare a good place for the little crotchfruits to interact and socialise with other little critters at the same early stage of their development and therefore help them become less of a precious snowflake by the time they have to go to school?

Also, children who spent time in day care have a lower incidence of getting sick as adults. And not just because they "got it all out of the way when they were younger." Evidence shows that their immune systems are better equipped to fight off infection.

Those things are both positives of day care but they apply more to the older kids. Itty bitty babies need their mommas or maybe even Gramma. They need something better than the minimum wage worker who doesn't really give a rat's ass about them.

zenaida fernandez-gonzalez has been our sitter since june.

we've had the quietest summer ever.

daycare or foster care? toss a coin....oh and I am a prime example of delegated parenting - nannies, boarding schools etc....it had both negative and positive impacts on my development and relationships with parents, brothers...

Putting your babies in childcare is better than shoving them back into your people hole, I guess.

I know this is anecdotal but I have interacted with a lot of kids over the years. In my experience, those raised at home by a parent or close relative are much better socialized than those stuck in day care. Day care babies are socialized for their own age group and no one else. Kids raised by family can look adults in the eye when they talk to them. Day care kids look away if they can even bring themselves to interact with adults. Just my observation.

The fact that a lot of parents need to day care their kids and the fact that a lot of parents find their possessions more important than their children and would rather work for the possessions than the kids does not change the fact that kids do better at home with a parent.

Hindmost: Isn't childcare a good place for the little crotchfruits to interact and socialise with other little critters at the same early stage of their development and therefore help them become less of a precious snowflake by the time they have to go to school?

I obviously have no children.

This times three.

Unless you have like, six kids and a pack of cousins for them to run around with, kids should probably spend as much time with other kids as possible early on and have people dedicated to early childhood education. Parents can't replace that kind of interaction.

In daycare kids can learn things like sharing, that the glue doesn't taste that good, and that if you want to talk it doesn't matter that much who is actually holding the conch. Sucks to your assmar.

My favourite thing when I was 2-3 was going to my preschool/daycare. All my buddies were there, we got to do crafts, play dress-up, they read us stories all the time and let us sing and dance and play all day. My best buddy was this kid who came up with these amazing (to my 2-year old self) stories at storytime, like about how his parents were turtles and about how he went skiing on the moon. The toys were way better than my toys at home and I didn't have to play with my smelly little brother. It was awesome.

I don't have kids.

But if I did have a child, I'd try to exhaust all other alternatives to daycare until said child was at least school age. Not all parents have the option, obviously. But why bother having a kid if all you are able to do is pick them up, feed them dinner, and tuck them in? It's almost like the daycare is doing the majority of raising the child, and the parents are acting the part of babysitter/care giver.

Well, there's always the weekend I guess. And holidays.

The woman quoted was talking about babies, not "kids." Infants. And infants don't need "socialization" in a big room with a bunch of squalling brats and a couple of teenagers or adults who aren't biologically invested in their well-being; they need their mommies.

Dumbass tag is for submitter.

Oh, I dunno. I never went to a daycare or preschool and I turned out to be quite reasonably maladjusted and socially inept.

When we had our kids I didnt make enough alone to support the two of them, myself, wife, house and car so my wife had to work. The kids went to daycare, yup even when they were babies. Now I make good money but my wife still works part time. And my kids? No behavior problems and they do great in school. For the most part they're like any other kid. They have some memories of the preschool program at the daycare center and they miss their friends and teachers there. Most importantly, because we chose to work we were able to give our kids a decent house in a decent neighborhood.

Frankly I want my wife to work even though my kids are in grade school. I want my daughter to have a female role model with an education and career.

I see other women staying at home all the time who are fat,lazy and basically spend their days watching dr phil and waiting for the school bus to arrive. I'd rather if daughter didn't think that this was the woman's role in the family.

Gecko Gingrich:
That said, maybe we should give more than 6 weeks maternity leave in this country. My wife hadn't even finished bleeding by the time she had to go back to work. Her Italian friend was shocked that my wife had to work up until the day she went into labor and had to go back after just a month and a half. In Italy the woman has the last three months of pregnancy off (with pay), three months after birth off (with pay) and the can have an additional three months (at half pay) if needed/wanted.

I don't see why it's your employers responsibility to fund your lifestyle choice. I know a few small business owners and paying for an employee who isn't contributing anything productive (in addition to paying for their temporary replacement) would absolutely cripple them. All that company paid maternity leave will accomplish is causing small to medium sized businesses to skip middle aged female candidates for jobs. People having children benefits society, so all of society should pay for it in the form of welfare, not just businesses.


Mr. Right: In my experience, those raised at home by a parent or close relative are much better socialized than those stuck in day care. Day care babies are socialized for their own age group and no one else. Kids raised by family can look adults in the eye when they talk to them. Day care kids look away if they can even bring themselves to interact with adults. Just my observation.

In my experience it was the other way around. Not to mention that kids raised by family would usually be the ones standing in the corner in new social interactions, day care kids would dive in and start making friends.

MadAzza: The woman quoted was talking about babies, not "kids." Infants. And infants don't need "socialization" in a big room with a bunch of squalling brats and a couple of teenagers or adults who aren't biologically invested in their well-being; they need their mommies.

Dumbass tag is for submitter.


THIS.

Babies need cuddles, snuggles, and someone blowing raspberries on their bellies to make them giggle. They don't need to be warehoused for 10 hours a day by people who will basically just provide for their basic needs and nothing else. Those first several months are extremely important for parent-child bonding.

If you can't take off from work for the first few months, then maybe you shouldn't have kids until you have sufficient savings till you can. Someone said above that no birth control method is 100% effective - yeah, no ONE method, but you aren't limited to just one. Condoms + spermicidal lubricant + the pill, for example = pretty much 100% effective.

It's not necessarily -abusive- to put a baby in daycare, but it sure as hell isn't the best way to raise them, and really, if you're having kids, aren't you supposed to try to do the best for them that you possibly can?

I just came in here to read people with the mental capacity of six-year-olds pontificate knowingly about the best way to care for six-month-olds.

I was not disappointed. Carry on.

Occam's Chainsaw: No, get it right. Beating your kids with a stripped extension cord is abuse. Dumping your kids on a childcare facility is neglect.

THIS

/It is refreshing to find concise wisdom
//Even Especially in a Fark thread

My daughter just went into childcare after spending a year at home with mom. And It's just a fact of life...Idealize all you want and label people all you want but the cost of living...the real cost of living...requires two incomes or a good high end position, at least where I live. We are blue collar and under-educated so just tightening the belt a bit won't do it. We need to work, both of us to survive. We have a 9 year old car and most days I walk to work. We don't take extravagant vacations or buy luxury items, in fact thios computer I am typing on was even bought second hand and is maintained with duct tape and small rodents trained in IT service. We spend a good portion of our income on childcare alone (yeah I see the irony in that) but you got to do what you got to do. Our older child goes to school full-time for the first time next week and that is a godsend. We are probably the norm, not the exception. At least in Canada.

We in all honesty probably couldn't afford our kids, but to hell with anyone who says we shouldn't have them. They make all our struggling and fighting through worth it. Cause we didn't just have them because it's our right or because we wanted to prove something in a cosmic way. We had them because we got pregnant and it was for us the right thing to do. And we love them no more or no less than any family that can afford to have a stay at home parent.

In fact my experiences with stay at home parents is they are the classic yuppie who sees their child as a perfect accessory and a clothing rack to display their disposable income. And they tend to be annoyiong and self-absorbed, they believe in Oprah and Osh Kosh By Gosh. I am probably wrong and generalizing, but I see them and hear them when they yap at each other at the park (I work nights so I can spend extra time with the kids.) and they just sort of strike me as pompous.

Childcare probably is a form of neglect. But I guess so is teaching your children that you must do only what you want, even if that includes staying home and not working in the name of some parenting crap. I figure my kids will see in the years to come I do what is best for the family and make sacrifices in that order. And to me that's an important lesson.

Gecko Gingrich: Accidents happen. Nothing is 100% effective as birth-control. If a DINK couple finds themselves "with child," you can't expect them to sell the house, the cars and pay off the credit cards within nine months so that they can live on one salary with an extra mouth to feed.

Yes. You usually can IF your priorities are straight. Been there, done that, got baby food stains on the tee-shirt.

For many parents, this is the unspoken bottom line:
Living a lower lifestyle that your neighbors might make fun of is more scary than handing your babies over to strangers.

No, it's just not bloody ideal.

However, I do see a lot of the dual-income, SUV driving, 52 inch TV owning, lego-land McMansion living types and think, I do hope your kids really, really enjoy all that junk you own. I'd rather get by with a 3-door VW Golf, live in a slightly beat up 3 bedroom house with crap parking and holiday somewhere five miles away and have the time to spend with my kids. If you actually have the choice you'll find that kids appreciate seeing their parents from time to time.

If it can't be helped, fair enough, it's just not a wonderful solution.

ManThatHurts [TotalFark] 2008-08-30 11:51:33 PM
Starving your kids because you won't go to work is abuse...

Childcare isn't free (unless you live near a generous, retired grandparent). In my experience it usually cost as much or more than I made myself. And with commuting costs and work clothes it has pushed me into the negative before. The only time I came out ahead was when I worked a weird early morning shift and then got back before my husband needed to leave for work...and then I was a zombie mom.

skippytheferret: In fact my experiences with stay at home parents is they are the classic yuppie who sees their child as a perfect accessory and a clothing rack to display their disposable income. And they tend to be annoyiong and self-absorbed, they believe in Oprah and Osh Kosh By Gosh.

Um...

I am probably wrong and generalizing,

Yes, you are. There's a degree of that, but the same can be said for the dual-incomers. So basically parents in general are annoying.

Who knew.

skippytheferret: Idealize all you want and label people all you want but the cost of living...the real cost of living...requires two incomes or a good high end position, at least where I live.

So move.

As long as where you live is more of a priority than your child's upbringing, you will feel trapped, but it's only because you aren't exercising all of your options.

skippytheferret: Childcare probably is a form of neglect. But I guess so is teaching your children that you must do only what you want, even if that includes staying home and not working in the name of some parenting crap.

Wow. You're really going for Father Of The Year, aren't you?

Y'know, what I find really interesting about this debate is that the people who swear up and down that it's vital for one parent (and let's face it, that's usually MOM) to stay home and look after the kid/s are the self-same people who criticise single mothers who stay home and collect welfare, rather than working. The problem with a woman staying at home for a year (or up to five or more years) to raise the kid/s is that she's lost her career. She's never going to get back the time spent caring for her kids that she's been out of the workforce, and that seriously affects her ability to earn. So if Dad decides to trade her in for a younger model, or just skips town or, goddess forbid, drops dead one day, the family's basically farked.

As someone who was raised by a single mother until the age of eight (when she remarried), and who spent a great deal of my childhood being looked after by people other than my parents, I didn't feel any resentment towards my parents (about that, anyway) or suffer any long-term psychological damage from it. What's really ironic is that, when I was about 12, my mother bought a daycare center and ran that for the rest of her life. Those kids were very well looked-after, I can assure you, and I don't think they suffered because their parents had to work, either.

Gramma: They need something better than the minimum wage worker who doesn't really give a rat's ass about them.

That is quite the generalization there, asshole.

I don't know ... have met and interacted with the "stay at home moms" at my kids school, I'm beginning to think that NOT putting your kids in daycare, and letting them sit 24-7 around those idiots, is abuse. As far as I can tell, my kid more flexible, well adjusted, and socially mature than most any stay at home kid his age.

Frankly, I'd love to have the wife not work, but in this economy and with healthcare costs what they are, you've got to be crazy not to have two careers going.

It is just like anything else, it might be a good thing, an indifferent thing, or a bad thing depending on the situation.

We have a daycare facility very close to my house which I looked into very carefully due to the fact that I am in process of adopting a child. I will not work for a while after we get our child, but in time I will have to go back to work. This particular day care center has few children and two women who are trained/certified Pre-4th grade teachers. They can teach her something I cannot, how to speak Spanish which is pretty important for this area.

Idealize all you want and label people all you want but the cost of living...the real cost of living...requires two incomes or a good high end position, at least where I live.

Maybe that's a hint that it's too expensive to live there. MOVE.

people who swear up and down that it's vital for one parent (and let's face it, that's usually MOM)

The moment MOM starts talking about working again, I mention how happy I'd be to stay home with baby. Instant no-way-you're-enjoying-that-and-I'm-not jealousy kicks in, and I'm off to work again the next day.

For many parents, this is the unspoken bottom line:
Living a lower lifestyle that your neighbors might make fun of is more scary than handing your babies over to strangers.

Thank you, Madison Ave. That's one reason I don't have TV: money-grubbers waging an economic FUD war against my family.

In this instance, I will buck the trend of this thread and substitute the OP's article for my opinion.

"She's right, large amounts of research are coming in showing that - particularly for children under two but also under three - childcare is generally likely to be harmful to them," AFA spokeswoman Angela Conway said, pointing to research from the US and UK.

And just for the record, even spoiled, self-centered, smug users of the term 'crotchfruit' received the benefit of someone, somewhere taking an interest in their well-being.