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Did I mention...$?

morphius501: Did I mention...$?

Can't they charge more here....and with WAY less costs?

morphius501: Did I mention...$?

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We don't have a gas or diesel shortage now. If we did, it would be way more profitable to sell it here, as they wouldn't have to dick around with shipping or anything.

Nothing like a good old dose of American efficiency.

This better not be a "free market rules all" Farker who submitted this

don't worry, the u.s. oil companies are looking out for your best interests. trust them.

RobertBruce: Can't they charge more here....and with WAY less costs?

but if they sell it here, that would increase the supply, driving down the price.

A supply shortage isn't really the driving problem behind high gas prices.

That's why we need to drill ANWAR.

Short term: We need to kick speculators out of the market. If you don't plan on taking delivery of something so vital to the economy, you have no business buying it. Period.

Long term: We need to start doing MAJOR research into alternative fuels. Oil ain't gonna last forever.

Somebody explain to me how keeping it here would lower prices here.

Every barrel now exported that would be kept in the U.S. would be replaced by another barrel that is currently imported, but that now would be sold in another country. Price would remain the same - the oil market is global.

Subby: Here's an idea: US oil companies export half of all imported oil as gas and diesel to other countries. Why don't we keep it here?

Because they get a better price from abroad? If it were more profitable to sell it here, they would. That's how the market works. If you're okay with some protectionism, then that becomes an option.

AntiNorm: Short term: We need to kick speculators out of the market. If you don't plan on taking delivery of something so vital to the economy, you have no business buying it. Period.

So you support a non free market approach to doing business? Somebody has to lose in order for someone else to win.

Long term: We need to start doing MAJOR research into alternative fuels. Oil ain't gonna last forever.

There's plenty of research going on... it's just not as profitable as oil yet. Yet.

Tr0mBoNe: So you support a non free market approach to doing business? Somebody has to lose in order for someone else to win.

Somebody IS losing -- rather, everybody is losing with oil prices so high. Without speculation, they would be far, far lower.

Free markets aren't always a good thing.

AntiNorm: Short term: We need to kick speculators out of the market. If you don't plan on taking delivery of something so vital to the economy, you have no business buying it. Period.

Thicker markets make for more efficient markets, not less efficient. Explain to me how reducing the market to even fewer major players is going to help consumers. Speculators' effect on the market can only last as long as the delivery contract date - believe me, they aren't going to take physical possession of the stuff. They will sell their contracts for whatever the going price is rather than get it sent to their houses.


Long term: We need to start doing MAJOR research into alternative fuels. Oil ain't gonna last forever.

It will last forever, but as it gets scarcer, the price will become very, very high. That will encourage lots of switching and research. That said, there is an important role for government to get the ball rolling.

mcwebe0: Subby: Here's an idea: US oil companies export half of all imported oil as gas and diesel to other countries. Why don't we keep it here?

Because they get a better price from abroad? If it were more profitable to sell it here, they would. That's how the market works. If you're okay with some protectionism, then that becomes an option.

Why the higher price abroad? How can this price difference be sustained in excess of transaction costs?

I actually do know how markets work - my PhD in international energy economics. I did my dissertation on global climate change policy - and started work on that topic 20 years ago.

bronyaur1: Explain to me how reducing the market to even fewer major players is going to help consumers.

Having less people to flip, flip, flip all that oil before it gets to the consumer will reduce the number of unnecessary middlemen driving up prices. I read somewhere that, on the day earlier this summer when oil hit $147, there were around 22 barrels of oil traded on paper for every single one consumed. That's 22 middlemen that didn't need to be there.

because our problem isn't lack of supply. it's unchecked demand. when's the last time you went to a gas station and they were out of gas? it doesn't happen. you pay as much as you do at the pump because you're willing to pay it.

bronyaur1: Why the higher price abroad? How can this price difference be sustained in excess of transaction costs?

I actually do know how markets work - my PhD in international energy economics. I did my dissertation on global climate change policy - and started work on that topic 20 years ago.

I dunno. I'm mostly a philosopher and theologian on my way to being a therapist. Your assessment of the way the global market works is probably far superior to mine. I'm just assuming that they are actively making better money selling abroad than they are here. I suppose, alternatively, it may be cheaper to import oil than produce it domestically so we sell a bunch overseas at a profit and import more cheaper than we produce it for a better profit.

AntiNorm: bronyaur1: Explain to me how reducing the market to even fewer major players is going to help consumers.

Having less people to flip, flip, flip all that oil before it gets to the consumer will reduce the number of unnecessary middlemen driving up prices. I read somewhere that, on the day earlier this summer when oil hit $147, there were around 22 barrels of oil traded on paper for every single one consumed. That's 22 middlemen that didn't need to be there.

It doesn't work that way. The price does not go up because someone bought the right to a commodity and wants to sell it to someone else, except for bubbles, which are quite unusual, although not unheard of - moreover, they come to an end typically (but not always) sooner rather than later.

John McCain has a comprehensive economic plan that will create millions of good American jobs, ensure our nation's energy security, get the government's budget and spending practices in order, and bring relief to American consumers. Read each of the sections below to learn how the McCain Economic Plan will help bring reform, prosperity and peace to America.

John McCain will commit our country to expanding domestic oil and natural gas exploration. The current federal moratorium on drilling in the Outer Continental Shelf stands in the way of energy exploration and production. John McCain believes it is time for the federal government to lift these restrictions and work with states to put our own reserves to use. There is no easier or more direct way to prove to the world that we will no longer be subject to the whims of others than to expand our production capabilities.

We have trillions of dollars worth of oil and gas reserves in the U.S. at a time we are exporting hundreds of billions of dollars a year overseas to buy energy. This is the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind. We should keep more of our dollars here in the U.S., lessen our foreign dependency, increase our domestic supplies, and reduce our trade deficit - 41 percent of which is due to oil imports. John McCain proposes to cooperate with the states and the Department of Defense in the decisions to develop these resources.

Estimates from the Minerals Management Service indicate that technically recoverable resources currently off limits in the lower 48 OCS total 18 billion barrels of crude oil and 77 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. John McCain believes in promoting and expanding the use of our domestic supplies of oil and natural gas when people are hurting, and struggling to afford gasoline, food and other necessities, and when our manufacturing businesses are increasingly hampered by the high cost of natural gas.

I'll talk to you guys later -- my new McCain2008 director's chair just arrived!

bronyaur1: The price does not go up because someone bought the right to a commodity and wants to sell it to someone else

Except when that person is trying to make a profit. Are oil traders in it just for the fun?

AntiNorm: bronyaur1: Explain to me how reducing the market to even fewer major players is going to help consumers.

Having less people to flip, flip, flip all that oil before it gets to the consumer will reduce the number of unnecessary middlemen driving up prices. I read somewhere that, on the day earlier this summer when oil hit $147, there were around 22 barrels of oil traded on paper for every single one consumed. That's 22 middlemen that didn't need to be there.

The oil market works much like the stock market. Just because someone bought it before you did doesn't mean that they drove up the price, or that they won at your expense.

Well, because of the weak dollar relative to other major markets, it's no surprise that exports are so high.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to put a temporary cap on exports until the domestic situation stabilizes, but in the long term (we're talking probably close to a decade, here), it would actually raise prices, at which point people would demand a price cap, and things just spiral downwards from there.

But yeah, a one- or two-year cap on exports would actually not suck.

AntiNorm: Free markets aren't always a good thing.

yes they are, Karl. you're not #752 in line for bread and toilet paper. please keep the line moving.

I always figured that the real reason we are still dependent on foreign sources of oil rather than drilling our own was so if and when the foreign sources do run dry, we'll still have untapped reserves of it.

Cewley: don't worry, the u.s. oil companies are looking out for your best interests. trust them.

I cannot agree more with this statement. I am so glad we have allowed John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil to re-merge back into ExxonMobil. Corporate greed and malfeasance is far more beneficial for the consumer than any kind of regulation.

oil is bought and sold on the world market. It's like a neighborhood of 20 houses, and four houses grow beans for the rest of the 20 houses. would you demand that YOUR house only be able to sell beans to you an your neighbor?

It doesn't matter where these oil companies sell their oil, either here, or in China--it'll still drive down the price of oil overall, because more supply is being injected into the model, even if we're not buying it ourselves.

For every barrel of oil we sell to china, another barrel becomes available that otherwise wouldn't have. if we sell it to china, we strengthen our diplomatic relations with China, and STILL enjoy the fruits of added demand into the system.

That which will finally mark the end of this country will be that we DON'T THINK THINGS THROUGH.

Ah, and now begins the move toward nationalization.

Socialism dosn't look so bad at $4 a gallon, do it, Murka?

Because we already use more petroleum than any other nation. We really need to knock that shiat off.

AntiNorm: bronyaur1: Explain to me how reducing the market to even fewer major players is going to help consumers.

Having less people to flip, flip, flip all that oil before it gets to the consumer will reduce the number of unnecessary middlemen driving up prices. I read somewhere that, on the day earlier this summer when oil hit $147, there were around 22 barrels of oil traded on paper for every single one consumed. That's 22 middlemen that didn't need to be there.

And then Congress started talking about ending speculation. And the commodity bubble burst. Wheeeeeeeeeeee. I don't care if it was correlation, causation, coincidence or kismet. I just hope Congress keeps talking about ending speculation.

Yeah, drilling more is REALLY going to help.

The free market doesn't always work.

Cewley: don't worry, the u.s. oil companies are looking out for your best interests. trust them.

You are right, we ought to nationalize our oil industry. It would drive up efficiency to GAZPROM levels. We could enjoy the level of affluence of russia and venezuela.

It is not like US jobs in the oil industry are propped up by much greater oil costs abroad. It certainly isn't the case that the cost of gasoline in the states is far less than virtually all of the rest of the world, particularly developed nations.

AntiNorm: Except when that person is trying to make a profit. Are oil traders in it just for the fun?

Profit is planned for in advance, but not determined in advance.

Industries where middlemen earn a profit are industries where the middlemen provide some type of service which others consider more efficient than without them. In this case, the middlemen reduce risk to the oil companies.

/"Cut out the middleman..." is one of the dumbest statements in advertising

Oil is fungible, you farking morons.

AntiNorm: Short term: We need to kick speculators out of the market. If you don't plan on taking delivery of something so vital to the economy, you have no business buying it. Period.

Long term: We need to start doing MAJOR research into alternative fuels. Oil ain't gonna last forever.

If you want to expel all the speculators, I hope you enjoy nasty supply shocks and disruptions because there's no liquidity in the oil market anymore.

thalidomide new and improved: AntiNorm: Free markets aren't always a good thing.

yes they are, Karl. you're not #752 in line for bread and toilet paper. please keep the line moving.

Just so ya know, "Snow Crash" wasn't depicting a positive I-want-to-live-there future. Enjoy backing out of the driveway onto America's socialized road system :)

Prospero424:
It wouldn't be a bad idea to put a temporary cap on exports until the domestic situation stabilizes, but in the long term (we're talking probably close to a decade, here), it would actually raise prices, at which point people would demand a price cap, and things just spiral downwards from there.

But yeah, a one- or two-year cap on exports would actually not suck.

That wouldn't be legal to put a cap on exports of oil. The oil has to go on the international market, since a bunch of oil barons got the rules passed, so all that nice new oil that would be drilled is likely to end up in China anyway.

dangelder: John McCain will commit our country to expanding domestic oil and natural gas exploration.

"I'm John McCain, and I approve this message."

dangelder: There is no easier or more direct way to prove to the world that we will no longer be subject to the whims of others than to expand our production capabilities.

No-one seems to be interested in proving anything - they just want an affordable solution to our current energy situation.

/I hop the McCain campaign is paying you well

Apparently, half of the rest of the world is willing to pay more for it.

You can't argue that speculators are not running up the price.

Every single major oil companies have agreed that they are a major problem. The head of Exxon gave a speech in front of congress, directly citing speculators as the main reason behind high gas prices. Oil companies are lying to cover for themselves?

the words "free market" get me harder than a dozen naked women ever could

thalidomide new and improved: yes they are, Karl. you're not #752 in line for bread and toilet paper. please keep the line moving.

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy known as the False Dilemma? (new window) You should check it out.

mcwebe0: Are you familiar with the logical fallacy known as the False Dilemma? (new window) You should check it out.

Please feel free to cite the other alternatives. The socialized nations of europe operate with unemployment rates greater than 12% on average. Inflation in the EU is also greater than here. A fare greater share of their population is reliant on handouts, the bread and toilet paper thalidomide alluded to.

Is that author retarded, confused or just playing on the ignorance of his readers? The article states over and over that the U.S. is exporting refined products. It says nothing about the crude oil being imported in from overseas and then sent back out.

The U.S. needs both new refineries AND new domestic crude production.

AntiNorm: bronyaur1: The price does not go up because someone bought the right to a commodity and wants to sell it to someone else

Except when that person is trying to make a profit. Are oil traders in it just for the fun?


"Trying to make a profit" does not equal "able to sell something I bought for a profit."

crunchyfist: I always figured that the real reason we are still dependent on foreign sources of oil rather than drilling our own was so if and when the foreign sources do run dry, we'll still have untapped reserves of it.

But I want it noooowwww!!!

>:(