Let's see how the Maverick's message stays the course or turns windsock in the next few days...

Seeing that both are not yet president, it would be unseemly to expect them to offer any concrete direction or declarations. That being said: Obama Seems more cautious until he received more information. McCain seemed to react strongly, without the information. He was right in his assessment. They both, however, came to the same conclusion.

What did our actual President do?

Or has he been entirely written off? I'd understand if that's the case...

In all fairness to everyone, WTF can any of them - especially candidates - really do?

"That's kind of like saying after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, that Kuwait and Iraq need to show restraint, or like saying in 1968 [when the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia] ... that the Czechoslovaks should show restraint," [McCain] said.

Actually, John, it's not like that at all. More FAIL.

Lionel Mandrake: What did our actual President do?

According to AP, Jughead boldly asserted "Violence and war is never an acceptable resolution."

But he did it with a straight face. So he's got that going for him. Which is nice.

does mccain realize that caucasus wants independence? from georgia? the situation isn't nearly as simple as he thinks. surprise surprise.

Lionel Mandrake: like saying in 1968 [when the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia] ... that the Czechoslovaks should show restraint," [McCain] said.

...which is what LBJ and NATO did, basically.

burndtdan: does mccain realize that caucasus wants independence? from georgia? the situation isn't nearly as simple as he thinks. surprise surprise.

As John McCain acts all tough and says "Boo, Russia," the Ossetian majority in the region is yelling "YAY RUSSIA!!!. It's a little more complicated than "It's like Kuwait and Iraq." Either McCain wants to dumb down a complex situation into a retarded, non-existent black-and-white caricature because he thinks we're all dumbasses, or he actually believes it's that simple...which would be very scary.

Tabatha Static: ...which is what LBJ and NATO did, basically.

Yeah...this mutherfarkin' RUSSIA...they are not going cower from McCain's "tough-talk."

Lionel Mandrake: What did our actual President do?

BEIJING (AP) - President Bush says the outbreak of fighting in the Georgia republic of South Ossetia is endangering peace throughout the region, and he is urging an end to the deadly outbreak of violence.

Bush says the spread of attacks beyond the zone of conflict is a dangerous escalation and that he is deeply concerned. He is urging an end to Russian bombings.

The president says the United States is working with its European allies to launch international mediation, and working with all sides in the conflict to restart the dialogue.

He was speaking Saturday while attending the Beijing Olympics, where an American tourist was killed earlier in the day. He says he and wife Laura were saddened by the attack.


He has also spoken with Putin (the real guy in charge) and NATO.

worst super hero names ever

I'm with Obama and the rest of the world's leaders on this one.

/Doy.

McCain's an idiot. Georgia killed a 1000 people when they took the south ossetian capital including (i heard) 15 russian peacekeepers. its NOT just straight-up aggression. not saying its right, but its not like farking iraq and kuwait. If anything it resembles the american response to kuwait (ie getting involved in a conflict outside our borders that, other than oil, doesn't have shiat to do with us).

that said, obama's response was pretty vacuous as well. but at least it wasn't stupid. all america can do is say 'stop fighting.' please. return to the status quo. and that's whats going to happen. russia doesn't really want to conquer georgia, georgia knows it can't win against russia, both sides are just acting tough for their constituents. like mccain.

If Russia had initiated hostilities instead of coming to the defense of an ally, I'd be all on McCain's side here. As it is, I'd wait until Russia turns it into an actual land-grab before being all decisive about it.

Then, I'm not the president (though, to be fair, niether are McCain or Obama, who have exactly as much experience executing the office as I do). So, meh. What's Bush doing? Article implies he's taking the 'negotiation' angle without explicitly stating it.

What I find funny is that South Ossetians really believe Russia will grant them independency, instead of becoming a puppet state.

Like John Slessor said after the Soviets screwed Poland over Warsaw: "How, after the fall of Warsaw, any responsible statesman could trust the Russian [Communist] further than he could kick him, passes the comprehension of ordinary men."

McCain delivered this statement in Iowa:

Today news reports indicate that Russian military forces crossed an internationally-recognized border into the sovereign territory of Georgia. Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory. What is most critical now is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces. The consequences for Euro-Atlantic stability and security are grave.

The government of Georgia has called for a cease-fire and for a resumption of direct talks on South Ossetia with international mediators. The U.S. should immediately convene an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council to call on Russia to reverse course. The US should immediately work with the EU and the OSCE to put diplomatic pressure on Russia to reverse this perilous course it has chosen. We should immediately call a meeting of the North Atlantic Council to assess Georgia's security and review measures NATO can take to contribute to stabilizing this very dangerous situation. Finally, the international community needs to establish a truly independent and neutral peacekeeping force in South Ossetia.

So, am I the only one that thinks this proposal is perfectly reasonable?

3_Butt_Cheeks: So, am I the only one that thinks this proposal is perfectly reasonable?

It's perfectly reasonable. And it would be received about as happily as if Russia had immediately convened an emergency session of the UNSC to call on the US to reverse course in Iraq.

Jim_Callahan: If Russia had initiated hostilities instead of coming to the defense of an ally, I'd be all on McCain's side here. As it is, I'd wait until Russia turns it into an actual land-grab before being all decisive about it.

Then, I'm not the president (though, to be fair, niether are McCain or Obama, who have exactly as much experience executing the office as I do). So, meh. What's Bush doing? Article implies he's taking the 'negotiation' angle without explicitly stating it.

Did anybody else watch the olympic opening ceremony? They had a quick crowd shot of Bush talking to Putin. The guys they had "calling" the ceremony were speculating they were talking about the ceremony itself.

Smart people know Bush was going, "Putin, dude, what are you doing?"

Both gave pretty good statements. Although, if president McCain would have played his hand too early making it more difficult to engage negotiation later.

1) Why are we so quick to stick our fat asses into any world conflict?

2) Are we so arrogant to think that Russia or Georgia gives a f*ck what America thinks?

3_Butt_Cheeks: McCain delivered this statement in Iowa:

Today news reports indicate that Russian military forces crossed an internationally-recognized border into the sovereign territory of Georgia. etc, etc....

So, am I the only one that thinks this proposal is perfectly reasonable?

If the "Russian forces crossing the border" were an isolated event, if they had crossed the border "just because", then yes, it would be quite reasonable. This is a bit more complex than that though.

unholycode76:
2) Are we so arrogant to think that Russia or Georgia gives a f*ck what America thinks?

Considering the Georgian president is pretty much begging for American support, and the invasion is pretty much a retaliation of Georgia getting all cuddly with the Western powers, the answer is yes.

burndtdan: does mccain realize that caucasus wants independence? from georgia?

Huh?

akzeac: What I find funny is that South Ossetians really believe Russia will grant them independency, instead of becoming a puppet state.

Like John Slessor said after the Soviets screwed Poland over Warsaw: "How, after the fall of Warsaw, any responsible statesman could trust the Russian [Communist] further than he could kick him, passes the comprehension of ordinary men."

the south ossetians are largely Russian citizens and they want to become a part of Russia.

FlameDuck: Both gave pretty good statements. Although, if president McCain would have played his hand too early making it more difficult to engage negotiation later.

Russians have a well earned reputation for pre-emptive military force and respecting strength, having a very hawkist governmental posture. From the texts I have read, they are very opportunistic and aggressive in the name of nationalism. JFK got the US in deep shiat because Khrushchev thought he was weak and inexperienced.

It may be like apples and oranges, but Putin seems to me as extrememly nationalistic and has a cold warrior attitude. IMHO.

akzeac: What I find funny is that South Ossetians really believe Russia will grant them independency, instead of becoming a puppet state.

Like John Slessor said after the Soviets screwed Poland over Warsaw: "How, after the fall of Warsaw, any responsible statesman could trust the Russian [Communist] further than he could kick him, passes the comprehension of ordinary men."

Yeah, I don't think the South Ossetians thought their cunning plan all the way through. It won't turn out like Kosovo, that's for sure.

They saw what happened in Chechnya--what makes them think it'll be any different for them?

burndtdan: does mccain realize that caucasus wants independence? from georgia? the situation isn't nearly as simple as he thinks. surprise surprise.

They shouldn't have independence. Caucasus are undemocratic.

How come no one's mentioned what Cynthia McKinney's response would be? She's from Georgia.

/and clearly the most responsible candidate

unholycode76: 1) Why are we so quick to stick our fat asses into any world conflict?

2) Are we so arrogant to think that Russia or Georgia gives a f*ck what America thinks?

Those are American trained troops in Georgia using weapons from US. US wanted Georgia to join NATO, Europeans whimped out.

Ned Stark: akzeac: What I find funny is that South Ossetians really believe Russia will grant them independency, instead of becoming a puppet state.

Like John Slessor said after the Soviets screwed Poland over Warsaw: "How, after the fall of Warsaw, any responsible statesman could trust the Russian [Communist] further than he could kick him, passes the comprehension of ordinary men."

the south ossetians are largely Russian citizens and they want to become a part of Russia.

That's because Russia has been giving citizenship to pretty much any South Ossetian that asks for one. An equivalent would be Mexico giving passport to all Latinos in Texas and then laying claim on the state because most citizens there are Mexican. *cough*

Ned Stark:

the south ossetians are largely Russian citizens and they want to become a part of Russia.

Are they ethnically Russian? I thought that the Russian gov't had a little fit of passport-granting lately to folks living in South Ossetia, but I hadn't heard the rationale for it.

It seems weirdly like the US granting US passports to Mexican citizens in Tecate, and then using that as an excuse to invade Northern Baja.

I mean really, what do the Russians actually get out of it? Is it about the pipeline? Is it about swinging a giant dick all over the Caucauses because the can? Is Putin bored? Are they trying to divert attention to the massive shiat-fest they made in Chechnya?

I just don't get their motivation.

unholycode76: Why are we so quick to stick our fat asses into any world conflict?

The US involved themselves in this situation by arming and training Georgians since 2002. Link (new window)

FlameDuck: Those are American trained troops in Georgia using weapons from US. US wanted Georgia to join NATO, Europeans whimped out.

It's too bad we never could figure out a way to get Russia to join NATO after the cold war. That would have been a trip.

I have no idea what it actually would have done, but it would have been wild.

akzeac: Ned Stark: akzeac: What I find funny is that South Ossetians really believe Russia will grant them independency, instead of becoming a puppet state.

Like John Slessor said after the Soviets screwed Poland over Warsaw: "How, after the fall of Warsaw, any responsible statesman could trust the Russian [Communist] further than he could kick him, passes the comprehension of ordinary men."

the south ossetians are largely Russian citizens and they want to become a part of Russia.

That's because Russia has been giving citizenship to pretty much any South Ossetian that asks for one. An equivalent would be Mexico giving passport to all Latinos in Texas and then laying claim on the state because most citizens there are Mexican. *cough*

actually, its because the people there have been mostly Russian since relocation projects brought then there while all those countries were still the Soviet Union. The passports are recent and only somewhat related.

Bonzo_1116: I just don't get their motivation.

I don't know if this is an accurate analogy or not, but try this on for size and see if it fits.

Think of it like if Hawaii decided it wanted to secede from the Union. The US government would be... averse. And probably violent.

akzeac: That's because Russia has been giving citizenship to pretty much any South Ossetian that asks for one. An equivalent would be Mexico giving passport to all Latinos in Texas and then laying claim on the state because most citizens there are Mexican. *cough*

Hmmmmmmmm............geeeeee......

Bonzo_1116: Ned Stark:

the south ossetians are largely Russian citizens and they want to become a part of Russia.

Are they ethnically Russian? I thought that the Russian gov't had a little fit of passport-granting lately to folks living in South Ossetia, but I hadn't heard the rationale for it.

It seems weirdly like the US granting US passports to Mexican citizens in Tecate, and then using that as an excuse to invade Northern Baja.

I mean really, what do the Russians actually get out of it? Is it about the pipeline? Is it about swinging a giant dick all over the Caucauses because the can? Is Putin bored? Are they trying to divert attention to the massive shiat-fest they made in Chechnya?


yes, they are ethnically russian, Russian citizens.

Russia get two things from this conflict. 1) they are protecting their citizens from Georgian aggression and 2) They get to wreck the shiat out of a wealthy US satellite run by nutbars that they realllly would rather not have sitting in their backyard.

Bonzo_1116:
It seems weirdly like the US granting US passports to Mexican citizens in Tecate, and then using that as an excuse to invade Northern Baja.

*cough*

I mean really, what do the Russians actually get out of it? Is it about the pipeline? Is it about swinging a giant dick all over the Caucauses because the can? Is Putin bored? Are they trying to divert attention to the massive shiat-fest they made in Chechnya?

I just don't get their motivation.

Georgia wanted to be part of NATO. That would bring NATO to Russia's doorstep. They can't have that, so Georgia had to pay. They want to make an example of them for the region. It's all retaliation.

Bonzo_1116: I mean really, what do the Russians actually get out of it? Is it about the pipeline? Is it about swinging a giant dick all over the Caucauses because the can? Is Putin bored? Are they trying to divert attention to the massive shiat-fest they made in Chechnya?

I just don't get their motivation.

Can't they have it all? This is naked political aggression that dwarfs anything moonbats came up about Bush and Iraq. This IS about Putin wanting power and control. Of which this war gives him. It's naked imperialism.

hillbillypharmacist: burndtdan: does mccain realize that caucasus wants independence? from georgia? the situation isn't nearly as simple as he thinks. surprise surprise.

They shouldn't have independence. Caucasus are undemocratic.

Small Caucasus states don't matter. Fark 'em.

FlameDuck: unholycode76: 1) Why are we so quick to stick our fat asses into any world conflict?

2) Are we so arrogant to think that Russia or Georgia gives a f*ck what America thinks?

Those are American trained troops in Georgia using weapons from US. US wanted Georgia to join NATO, Europeans whimped out.

This. Although to be fair to the Europeans, I'd be a little nervous if I was as close to Putin as they are.

Bottom line - if it involves NATO, it involves the US.

FlameDuck: unholycode76: 1) Why are we so quick to stick our fat asses into any world conflict?

2) Are we so arrogant to think that Russia or Georgia gives a f*ck what America thinks?

Those are American trained troops in Georgia using weapons from US. US wanted Georgia to join NATO, Europeans whimped out.

This is great, so we stuck our asses into the situation years ago. How many other countries are we meddling with? We suck.

Ned Stark:

yes, they are ethnically russian, Russian citizens.

Russia get two things from this conflict. 1) they are protecting their citizens from Georgian aggression and 2) They get to wreck the shiat out of a wealthy US satellite run by nutbars that they realllly would rather not have sitting in their backyard.

Well, if the Ossetians are actually Russians, why didn't they get the f*ck out when Georgia broke away from the disintegrating USSR in the early 1990s? They haven't been proper Russians for 15 years.

Ugh, what a mess. This has ugly endless seperatist war written all over it.

I'm sure of the Russians manage to pinch off South Ossetia there will be some leftover angry Georgians going all Wolverine for years. It's a real no-win.

You know, the more you think about this, the more you think that "Wow, that actually thought this through". With the Olympics on, no one notices the conventional war in the place that sounds like penises.

fark it would suck to live there.

Seriously.

unholycode76: This is great, so we stuck our asses into the situation years ago. How many other countries are we meddling with? We suck.

Ah, again it comes down to America's fault...America bashing. So you no nothing about the history, situation, or motivation behind any of the involved parties, but managed to come to a "America Sucks" conclusion. Well done.

3_Butt_Cheeks: Russians have a well earned reputation for pre-emptive military force and respecting strength, having a very hawkist governmental posture. From the texts I have read, they are very opportunistic and aggressive in the name of nationalism.

People say this stuff all the time about any nation that they disagree with. There's a big difference between respecting strength, and demanding that your leader issue some thuggish, swaggering statement. The problem with making a "strong" overt statement is that Russia could just as well call our bluff, and then we'd look even more foolish than JFK.

unholycode76: 1) Why are we so quick to stick our fat asses into any world conflict?

2) Are we so arrogant to think that Russia or Georgia gives a f*ck what America thinks?

We haven't stuck our "fat asses" in this conflict other than your normal "war is bad mmmkay" statement that EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD is doing right now.

Is Canada sticking their fat ass somewhere?

How about Sweden?

Oh shiate! There goes China always sticking their fat ass everywhere.

And yes, Russia and Georgia do give a f*ck what America thinks. Georgia is begging for US intervention and has been from the get-go.

LocalCynic: Russia could just as well call our bluff, and then we'd look even more foolish than JFK

We haven't said anything hawkish. Obama, McCain, and Bush all called for a ceasefire, for the aggression to end, and for mediation/negotiation.

LocalCynic: The problem with making a "strong" overt statement is that Russia could just as well call our bluff, and then we'd look even more foolish than JFK.

There's no reason to make any overt move. There's no indication that the US will make any overt move.

Why would we? Why do we care more than the EU?

Answer: we don't care more. Everyone is worried about regional power status and ultimately oil flow, but no one is going to do anything.

NO ONE. And no one should. It simply is not worth it.

rka:
And yes, Russia and Georgia do give a f*ck what America thinks. Georgia is begging for US intervention and has been from the get-go.

But does the US give enough of a crap about Georgia to heat up ColdWarII: Nuclear Power Standoff Boogaloo?

I wonder if there's been fights yet in the Olympics athlete village.

Bonzo_1116: Ned Stark:

yes, they are ethnically russian, Russian citizens.

Russia get two things from this conflict. 1) they are protecting their citizens from Georgian aggression and 2) They get to wreck the shiat out of a wealthy US satellite run by nutbars that they realllly would rather not have sitting in their backyard.

Well, if the Ossetians are actually Russians, why didn't they get the f*ck out when Georgia broke away from the disintegrating USSR in the early 1990s? They haven't been proper Russians for 15 years.

Ugh, what a mess. This has ugly endless seperatist war written all over it.

I'm sure of the Russians manage to pinch off South Ossetia there will be some leftover angry Georgians going all Wolverine for years. It's a real no-win.

the status quo with the peace keepers was going well till Georgia farked it up by shelling civilians and Russian peace keepers. i don't think its going to matter very much what "angry Georgians" think. Russia is big and Georgia is small. Russia is right(or atleast, only wrong a little) and Georgia is in the wrong. thats a recipe for a face stomping.