I don't know what I just read. I'm sure some might find it interesting. Seemed well-reasoned.

I like the premise of the article. Although, I'm a little leery when trying to understand how all of the Obama consequences are positive while all of the McCain consequences are negative.

I would assume if the decision is as clear as this article makes it...the Obama campaign would pounce on something like this.

538 getting linked on Fark now? Sweeeeet.

bulldg4life: I like the premise of the article. Although, I'm a little leery when trying to understand how all of the Obama consequences are positive while all of the McCain consequences are negative.

I would assume if the decision is as clear as this article makes it...the Obama campaign would pounce on something like this.

The downside would be that McCain would try to portray this as a flip flop, but I agree with Nate that it's unlikely to work.

Both campaigns are fighting to stake a claim on the center. Attaching himself to this legislation would go a way toward Obama accomplishing that.

bulldg4life: Although, I'm a little leery when trying to understand how all of the Obama consequences are positive while all of the McCain consequences are negative.

As with all things, the spin is what's important. If this bill gets pushed and McCain votes in favor of it (as he's only made lukewarm opposition to it) he can paint it as a victory for him since he got offshore drilling in. It would only be a true negative for him if he remains firmly opposed to it. In the meantime, I wouldn't expect the media to focus on tax loopholes and other dry stuff like that when they've got tires to inflate and Paris Hilton to harp on, so it wouldn't be painting McCain into a corner unless McCain himself does so.

McCain finally coming back to the Senate, either to support or oppose it, will be a news story in itself, and not one McCain wants.

If either of them support it, it would be a "flip-flop"

But honestly, it's a flip-flop I'd like to see BOTH of them make.

Although the tax incentives for hybrids are an iffy issue for me, personally...

Born2late: I don't know what I just read.

Basically, it's saying that Sen. Obama can win the election if he throws the ultra-libs who worship him under the bus. Again.

It's right.

I'm.... intrigued.

Both sides might go after this, and it'll be interesting to see what happens. So long as both Senators are in DC to do much with it, of course.

"He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

Descartes: "He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

/Oops, wrong thread.
//Yet, weirdly pertinent.

Descartes: "He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

A lifetime of experience in a time of change where prior strategies and tactics no longer function effectively at home or abroad makes that experience about as valuable as a pool of dog snot.

-Me

I hope Obama backs it. Yeah it's a compromise but that's ok, that happens in congress.

McCain will really look bad. As the stone thrower he is.

Descartes: Descartes: "He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

/Oops, wrong thread.
//Yet, weirdly pertinent.

Still caught my eye. =)

Descartes: "He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

One of the most coontish things ever said.

Descartes: "He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

Just wondering when did graduating Harvard law school magnum cum laude and the president/editor in chief of Harvard Law Review become chopped liver?

Is 538 non-partisan (at least officially) or is it outright pro-Obama? I've never read anything on the site that has said, for example, "What McCain ought to do to win" or "Why Obama might not win this whole election in a landslide and then go on to change the world into a happy place where all men are brothers, racism is over, and everyone has healthcare provided for them by magical fairies who never need to be paid."

Could be just me, though.

Calvin Coolidge: Descartes: "He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

One of the most coontish things ever said.

Even if it were accurate, it is still basically an endorsement of McCain, which is absolutely unacceptable for any democrat in her position.

I like it.

Bastiat's Last Disciple: Is 538 non-partisan (at least officially) or is it outright pro-Obama?

Nice false dichotomy. SO it either has to be a shill for Obama or just outright Obama propaganda.

Those are the only choices allowed.

That was... fairly insightful, actually. Wonder how it managed to get greenlit.

Also:

Manfred J. Hattan: Born2late: I don't know what I just read.

Basically, it's saying that Sen. Obama can win the election if he throws the ultra-libs who worship him under the bus. Again.


Good. They deserve to be steamrolled a few times, just like their right-wing soulmates.

Bastiat's Last Disciple: Is 538 non-partisan (at least officially) or is it outright pro-Obama? I've never read anything on the site that has said, for example, "What McCain ought to do to win" or "Why Obama might not win this whole election in a landslide and then go on to change the world into a happy place where all men are brothers, racism is over, and everyone has healthcare provided for them by magical fairies who never need to be paid."

At least one of the guys supports Obama, but their methodology w/r/t electoral projections seems sound.

Bastiat's Last Disciple: Is 538 non-partisan (at least officially) or is it outright pro-Obama? I've never read anything on the site that has said, for example, "What McCain ought to do to win" or "Why Obama might not win this whole election in a landslide and then go on to change the world into a happy place where all men are brothers, racism is over, and everyone has healthcare provided for them by magical fairies who never need to be paid."

Could be just me, though.

Where you unable to click the "FAQ" link on the site.

Bastiat's Last Disciple: Is 538 non-partisan (at least officially) or is it outright pro-Obama?

He's an open Obama supporter but does his best to keep his analysis non-partisan.

Aexia: He's an open Obama supporter but does his best to keep his analysis non-partisan.

Watch those on the right heads asplode trying to figure out that sentence.

Corvus: Aexia: He's an open Obama supporter but does his best to keep his analysis non-partisan.

Watch those on the right heads asplode trying to figure out that sentence.

No heads asploding, just a quick laugh, then moved along, nothing to see there.

Manfred J. Hattan: Born2late: I don't know what I just read.

Basically, it's saying that Sen. Obama can win the election if he throws the ultra-libs who worship him under the bus. Again.

It's right.

Why is it only the right who constantly brings up "worship"? Is it cynicism because they can't find a candidate to care about?

ZachF81: Corvus: Aexia: He's an open Obama supporter but does his best to keep his analysis non-partisan.

Watch those on the right heads asplode trying to figure out that sentence.

No heads asploding, just a quick laugh, then moved along, nothing to see there.

My mind does not need to accept what I don't want to believe!

Corvus: Bastiat's Last Disciple: Is 538 non-partisan (at least officially) or is it outright pro-Obama?

Nice false dichotomy. SO it either has to be a shill for Obama or just outright Obama propaganda.

Those are the only choices allowed.

Is it very pro-Obama, or the most pro-Obama?

RevMercutio: Manfred J. Hattan: Born2late: I don't know what I just read.

Basically, it's saying that Sen. Obama can win the election if he throws the ultra-libs who worship him under the bus. Again.

It's right.

Why is it only the right who constantly brings up "worship"? Is it cynicism because they can't find a candidate to care about?

What about Obama? They can't stop talking about him.

ZachF81: If either of them support it, it would be a "flip-flop"

But honestly, it's a flip-flop I'd like to see BOTH of them make.

Although the tax incentives for hybrids are an iffy issue for me, personally...


/couldn't resist

RevMercutio: Why is it only the right who constantly brings up "worship"? Is it cynicism because they can't find a candidate to care about?

A drowning man grabs whatever he can get without thought of whether it will actually save him.

Iwouldhitit: Corvus: Bastiat's Last Disciple: Is 538 non-partisan (at least officially) or is it outright pro-Obama?

Nice false dichotomy. SO it either has to be a shill for Obama or just outright Obama propaganda.

Those are the only choices allowed.

Is it very pro-Obama, or the most pro-Obama?

Perhaps it's just honest as far as projections are currently and seeing that it paints a poor picture for McCain it's easier for his supporters to try and dismiss it as mere partisan shrill?

/just spitballin'

I thought Obama was already connected with the Gang of Ten in some way?

What exactly does "Alternative Fuels" entail?

After all, my SUV doesn't run on corn.

..and the hybrid rebate is fine as long as there is R&D going into cars that don't run on fuel and instead off of electricity that is generated by clean renewable sources.

I think this is a pretty good compromise. I'm against offshore drilling but if you want to have the individual states vote on it then I have no problem with it. The $20B for alternative energies more than makes up for it, I think. Is it perfect? No. But it is an effective compromise and it's the closest we're going to get to everyone getting what they want.

I think this quote from August 2 (new window) sums up Obama's stance on this.

In a statement Friday afternoon, Obama said, "I welcome today's bipartisan effort as an important step in the process of reducing our dangerous dependence on foreign oil."

He said the proposal "includes many of the policies I've been fighting for," including repealing tax breaks for oil companies.

However, he said, it also "includes steps that I haven't always supported. I remain skeptical that new offshore drilling will bring down gas prices in the short-term or significantly reduce our oil dependence in the long-term, though I do welcome the establishment of a process that will allow us to make future drilling decisions based on science and fact."

So last night I paused briefly on Hannity.

In back to back sentences, he did the following:

1. Praised McCain for "coming around" on the issues of drilling and immigration amnesty.

2. Blasted Obama as a flip-flopper.

Salacious Salad: RevMercutio: Why is it only the right who constantly brings up "worship"? Is it cynicism because they can't find a candidate to care about?

A drowning man grabs whatever he can get without thought of whether it will actually save him.

Might wanna look at who put him in the water, then.

ZachF81: Corvus: Aexia: He's an open Obama supporter but does his best to keep his analysis non-partisan.

Watch those on the right heads asplode trying to figure out that sentence.

No heads asploding, just a quick laugh, then moved along, nothing to see there.


You're claiming bias in math now? Must be those ultra-lib 8's or dirty communist 3's.

ZachF81: If either of them support it, it would be a "flip-flop"

But honestly, it's a flip-flop I'd like to see BOTH of them make.

Although the tax incentives for hybrids are an iffy issue for me, personally...

The Hybrids are iffy for me too...maybe attach a domestic only rider to the incentives.

It just seems silly to replace the billions going to the Middle East with billions whose ultimate destination is Japan.

/to stave off the inevitable "They Employ people here" I will say "So do the Oil Companies we are trying to kick to the curb"

That's a lot of pie graphs.

bikerific: So last night I paused briefly on Hannity.

In back to back sentences, he did the following:

1. Praised McCain for "coming around" on the issues of drilling and immigration amnesty.

2. Blasted Obama as a flip-flopper.

Thats just a little bit of Sean Hannity being Sean Hannity baby.

/if someone actually called him out on it his response would be...
//b-b-but Rev. Wright!
///I'd gladly accept an assault charge if I got to beat his ass.

Corvus: Descartes: "He's (McCain) never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience.
Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

-Hillary Clinton

Just wondering when did graduating Harvard law school magnum cum laude and the president/editor in chief of Harvard Law Review become chopped liver?

Well, if you're going with 'any experience is relevant' as an argument, I have extensive experience with drinking, making poor sexual decisions, and handling sharp objects. Quick, give me a powerful executive job in a national government!

//Being a lawyer or having made good grades in school is not necessarily relevant experience for the position of president, if you're not getting what I'm saying here.
//Having taught constitutional law might help a bit, though.

Mistah Scrotie: I think this is a pretty good compromise. I'm against offshore drilling but if you want to have the individual states vote on it then I have no problem with it. The $20B for alternative energies more than makes up for it, I think. Is it perfect? No. But it is an effective compromise and it's the closest we're going to get to everyone getting what they want.

The first rule of haggling/compromise:

All parties involved should walk away feeling as though they won.

I think this bill passes that test.

Jim_Callahan: //Being a lawyer or having made good grades in school is not necessarily relevant experience for the position of president, if you're not getting what I'm saying here.
//Having taught constitutional law might help a bit, though.

Yeah, being very smart and having a very good back ground in constitutional law.

Better than graduating in the bottom of your class like McCain.

Im a liberal guy and an environmentalist. In response to the email forwards I get from friends/family who try to paint the entire democratic party as ultra-left superlibs who want high gas prices, I always reply that I would be open to drilling as a compromise if the right would just acknowledge the fact that we cannot drill our way out of this problem.

Oil is crack, and we are addicted. The solution is not more or cheaper crack. We need to ween ourselves off oil while focusing on alternatives. Ive had mostly positive feedback from conservatives on these email retorts, and now this thread and 538 have given me a little hope that a compromise may actually be possible.

/subby

FTA's analysis is apt... if they pull this off, look out. Masterful politics here. Obama won't be injured for flip-flopping on offshore drilling, because he's flipping towards the majority at a time when circumstances dictate it apropos, making him appear more reasonable and bipartisan.

And McCain has played right into Obama's hand by opposing it, for all reasons, because it closes tax loopholes used by oil companies, and will have the effect of raising their tax contribution. McCain is abandoning his own primary issue in favor of defending oil company profits against fair taxes... not smart, especially in the current political climate.

Thank you Paris Hilton?

bikerific: So last night I paused briefly on Hannity.

In back to back sentences, he did the following:

1. Praised McCain for "coming around" on the issues of drilling and immigration amnesty.

2. Blasted Obama as a flip-flopper.

I listen to his radio show sometimes and it's pathetic. Everyone that calls in says "You are a great American". So being a "great American" means that you are a lying douchebag.