Yep, forget fixing the economy, and that people can't afford to shop anymore, let alone afford the gas to drive there, if they still have a house to drive from, and that similar businesses are going under - vote for the guy who said he doesn't really know anything about the economy so at least your workers won't unionize.

Dear god I hate the Not News, News, Fark meme...

In recent weeks, thousands of Wal-Mart store managers and department heads have been summoned to mandatory meetings at which the retailer stresses the downside for workers if stores were to be unionized.

Higher pay?

benefits?

recourse for improper actions by management?

being treated as an employee and not a cog?

[The corporation] penetrating it's every part of the Union acting by command and in phalanx, may, in a critical moment, upset the government. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities.


-Thomas Jefferson

Employers have been getting a free pass for far too long. It's time for unions to come back and take back the gains that have been surrendered to employers over the past couple of decades. Too many workers work full-time jobs with part-time status these days, and take it because their bosses tell them with a wink, "well I could cut you back to 20 hours then, would that be fine?" They need to organize.

I'm sure Penn and Teller will excuse this away somehow on their Showtime program.

I hate unions (they had their time and purpose but that has passed) but to see a union crack Wal-mart would be a beautiful thing. I worked there for five years and went through many "anti-union" trainings as a manager.

I know if it happens in one store they will just close the store down but if it happens in multiple locations that would be fun to watch.

gilgamesh23: It's time for unions to come back and take back the gains that have been surrendered to employers over the past couple of decades.

Damn, you must hate workers.

gilgamesh23: Employers have been getting a free pass for far too long. It's time for unions to come back and take back the gains that have been surrendered to employers over the past couple of decades. Too many workers work full-time jobs with part-time status these days, and take it because their bosses tell them with a wink, "well I could cut you back to 20 hours then, would that be fine?" They need to organize.

And then the 20 hour work week will be enforced. Pay your union dues out of that.

samimgreen: And then the 20 hour work week will be enforced written into the contract with the union as something the company isn't allowed to do.

robsul82: I'm sure Penn and Teller will excuse this away somehow on their Showtime program.

The free market will solve everything. Guns.

eh, the only good thing I've gotten out of a union was a 20 cent or so raise on my hourly wage. Which is nice, but the union dues I paid to three different unions were far more suck than they were worth.

Unions allow workers who are being treated unlawfully to tell their smirking bosses "hey, I have lawyers too." Some businesses are awesome and don't need to be unionized. There's mutual respect between employer and employee and it would be counterproductive to organize. Some... aren't. Those workers need help, and unions can provide it.

gilgamesh23: Unions allow workers who are being treated unlawfully to tell their smirking bosses "hey, I have lawyers too." Some businesses are awesome and don't need to be unionized. There's mutual respect between employer and employee and it would be counterproductive to organize. Some... aren't. Those workers need help, and unions can provide it.

exactly

Sounds like WalMart is getting on the wrong side of union busting. Which is, illegal. Not that this is anything new with WalMart.

DamnYankees: Dear god I hate the Not News, News, Fark meme...



YOU can fix that.

of course unions should be allowed. the problem is, that nowadays we're probably better off without them. but that doesn't change the fact that they should still be allowed.

I dislike most unions (particularly the ones that abuse their power), but I recognize that at least a few are needed.

By all that's unholy, I hate Socialist-Mart and Commie Club.

A company that blackmails cities and counties for tax breaks. A company that teaches it's employees how to get state aid rather than pay a bit more or provide benefits. A company that rails against the taxes it dodges as much as possible while using my tax monies to pad their bottom line.

Even though I'm not shopping there, I am forced to support them, through my taxes. Hypocrisy at it's finest, that company is. Socialist-Mart & Commie Club, defend them comrades. Defend their use of tax blackmail. Defend their gaming of the system so employees can live on government aid.

Competition in the free market? Pfft! Socialist-Mart and Commie Club are about as anti-free market as you get!

gilgamesh23: Some... aren't. Those workers need help, and unions can provide it.

If they don't like it so much, why don't they just quit?

I have my issues with unions (though I support them in principle) sometimes, but come ON.


"We believe EFCA is a bad bill and we have been on record as opposing it for some time," Mr. Tovar said. "We feel educating our associates about the bill is the right thing to do."

There's no single possible way to believe you're being sincere (excepting that you believe EFCA is bad for Wal-Mart). Not one.

Yes, unions can go too far and have done so. That doesn't make them either bad or obsolete, but in need of reform.

Last One Left: gilgamesh23: Some... aren't. Those workers need help, and unions can provide it.

If they don't like it so much, why don't they just quit?

If there are things that you don't like about your country, why don't you just leave?

Last One Left: If they don't like it so much, why don't they just quit?

Why quit when you can fix the problem

Last One Left: Some... aren't. Those workers need help, and unions can provide it.

If they don't like it so much, why don't they just quit?

If there are things that you don't like about your country, why don't you just leave?

I'm not quite catching the comparison between Job and Country. I do think Unions are antiquated and no longer nessecary; we have a whole host of federal laws regulating corporations and workers can't be horribly mistreated any longer, they now have legal recourse without a Union. I see what they did to the Big 3 (Made the financially untenable to the point where people lost jobs so unions could get a pay increase on contract talks).

Hell, those Union Dues get contributed to Democrats, what's wrong with Wal Mart telling thier people that if Democrats win, so do unions, and guess what, unions are bad for business.

When you show me a 12 year old working with dangerous heavy equipment in a horribly unsafe environment, then we need unions again.

Just my .02 and decidedly biased against Unions.

/Off to hunt down an episode of BullSh*t! :P

Brockway: Guess who was on the board of directors

So STFU with the radicalizing of WalMart. It's just a FARKing store. Get over it.

I'm not sure what your point is, but no one is required to "get over it," whatever in Hell "it" is.

CanisNoir: When you show me a 12 year old working with dangerous heavy equipment in a horribly unsafe environment, then we need unions again.

I know right? Same thing with civil rights. When you show me that black people are getting lynched everyday and not being able to vote then we need civil rights laws.

CanisNoir: If they don't like it so much, why don't they just quit?

If there are things that you don't like about your country, why don't you just leave?

I'm not quite catching the comparison between Job and Country. I do think Unions are antiquated and no longer nessecary; we have a whole host of federal laws regulating corporations and workers can't be horribly mistreated any longer, they now have legal recourse without a Union. I see what they did to the Big 3 (Made the financially untenable to the point where people lost jobs so unions could get a pay increase on contract talks).

Hell, those Union Dues get contributed to Democrats, what's wrong with Wal Mart telling thier people that if Democrats win, so do unions, and guess what, unions are bad for business.

When you show me a 12 year old working with dangerous heavy equipment in a horribly unsafe environment, then we need unions again.

Just my .02 and decidedly biased against Unions.

/Off to hunt down an episode of BullSh*t! :P

The argument that "things are OK now" could have been used at any time in the history of unions. Have improvements been made? Absolutely. Have unions, in fact, gone overboard at times? I would definitely agree that they have. But there is no indication that the basic function of unions is obsolete to me.

I think that unions need to be reminded, however forcefully, of their real purpose, but that purpose still exists.


/Also, I love Bullshiat, despite the occasionally douchey nature of the hosts or the occasional disagreement I have with them.

CanisNoir: When you show me a 12 year old working with dangerous heavy equipment in a horribly unsafe environment, then we need unions again.

Didn't they just find a bunch of kids working 12 hour shifts in a meat-packing plant that was raided by immigration?

Sounds like, according to your criteria, we might need unions again.

Oh the irony...

Considering the vast gulf between increases in worker productivity vs worker pay over the last couple decades, I think claiming unions are the problem is a little odd.

Brockway: Look what you did to GM, Ford, Chrysler, any US airline, the education system

you have not the foggiest clue what the problems at GM, Ford and the airlines are, do you?

Brockway: You pro-union guys can go eat a bag of dicks. Look what you did to GM, Ford, Chrysler, any US airline, the education system...you bring nothing but destruction to everything you touch. DIAF.

well...its that....aw fark it. To trollish for even me to respond to.

You pro-union guys can go eat a bag of dicks. Look what you did to GM, Ford, Chrysler, any US airline, the education system...you bring nothing but destruction to everything you touch. DIAF.

A remarkably blinkered view, that. I used to work for a US company in Britain. They tried to ban unions without realising it was illegal to do so. If they had treated the workers correctly instead of shafting them, we would never have needed (or wanted) a union.

Brockway: You pro-union guys can go eat a bag of dicks. Look what you did to GM, Ford, Chrysler, any US airline, the education system...you bring nothing but destruction to everything you touch. DIAF.

Oh yes, it was the unions that did in the American automobile manufacturers.

It wasn't decades of incompetent management (Iacocca being the one exception) or our incredible push to make life so expensive in this country that we became uncompetitive with the rest of the world.

We should probably let the market decide, you know, the free market. Of course, that would mean that our vehicles would be built in other countries where there is a cheaper cost of living and labor rates to match.

Get a clue, it's embarrassing to read crap like what you posted here.

log_jammin: Brockway: You pro-union guys can go eat a bag of dicks. Look what you did to GM, Ford, Chrysler, any US airline, the education system...you bring nothing but destruction to everything you touch. DIAF.

well...its that....aw fark it. To trollish for even me to respond to.

You know, I'm betting he's real and actually thinks that way - not someone trolling.

Scary, when you can't tell the people who mean it from the ones pretending to believe what they post, isn't it?

Random Reality Check: You know, I'm betting he's real and actually thinks that way - not someone trolling.

Scary, when you can't tell the people who mean it from the ones pretending to believe what they post, isn't it?

Oh I'm sure he believes it. I've met many in real life just like him.

Random Reality Check: Iacocca being the one exception

De Lorean was another exception.

Brockway: You pro-union guys can go eat a bag of dicks. Look what you did to GM, Ford, Chrysler, any US airline, the education system...you bring nothing but destruction to everything you touch. DIAF.

There are plenty of anti-union countries for you and your young children to find long, dangerous and unsanitary careers in. Have at it, chief.

If McCain is not elected president, WalMart greeter may become his only other job opportunity.

Wally World is left with very few options here.

I mean would you hire this geriatric fossil to greet you customers?

FTA

The business-backed lobbying groups are running ads in states where a win by a Democratic Senate candidate would boost support for the legislation in the Senate, saying the loss of secret ballots exposes workers to bullying labor bosses. In one, they use an actor from the "Sopranos" TV series about mob life to hammer home their point.

An actor who belongs to the Screen Actors Guild(a union)!?!?!?

Migaloo: If McCain is not elected president, WalMart greeter may become his only other job opportunity.

I think McCain makes a more acceptable Senator than most, actually, though I don't plan on voting for him for President.

liberalish: robsul82: I'm sure Penn and Teller will excuse this away somehow on their Showtime program.

The free market will solve everything. Guns.

You can buy those at WalMart. Machetes are the next aisle over, if you don't want to wait, or can't get a firearms because of questionable citizenship status or dubious background checks.

They also have fertilizer, propane, ammonium perchlorate, and other useful chemicals.

ksdanj: If there are things that you don't like about your country, why don't you just leave?

Citizenship is just like voluntary employment. You got me there.

log_jammin: Why quit when you can fix the problem

His assertion is that there are some companies where employees are treated like crap and unions can fix that. But then you'd have a whole different set of problems. So, while you might "fix the problem", it's not as though everything will be fine after that.

Quitting is better because you get to choose what kind of employer you want to deal with and the employer gets to decide what kind of environment he provides for his employees. There's a lot more room for choice and granularity in this case.

Relatively Obscure: But there is no indication that the basic function of unions is obsolete to me.

I think that unions need to be reminded, however forcefully, of their real purpose, but that purpose still exists.

And what is that purpose? What do unions bring to the table that cannot be provided by other means? I'm not trolling, I'm honestly trying to figure out what the deal is.

log_jammin: I know right? Same thing with civil rights. When you show me that black people are getting lynched everyday and not being able to vote then we need civil rights laws.

No, civil rights *laws* are different from Unions. Better analogy would be... Show me someone's liberties being trampled upon and then you'll have a reason for the ACLU to exist.

Nice job trying to make me out as a racist; let me guess, Obama supporter?

inglixthemad: CanisNoir: When you show me a 12 year old working with dangerous heavy equipment in a horribly unsafe environment, then we need unions again.

Didn't they just find a bunch of kids working 12 hour shifts in a meat-packing plant that was raided by immigration?

Sounds like, according to your criteria, we might need unions again.

Oh the irony...

I havn't heard the story, but that would fall more under Immigration Law Enforcement or Child Slavery Laws not Unions.

Sorry, no Irony here.

Last One Left: But then you'd have a whole different set of problems.

such as?

Last One Left: Quitting is better because you get to choose what kind of employer you want to deal with and the employer gets to decide what kind of environment he provides for his employees.

sometimes quitting isn't an option no matter how bad it is. If it was there would be no such thing as sweatshops.

Last One Left: What do unions bring to the table that cannot be provided by other means?

collective bargaining. for some insurance. Legal protections that the average work cant afford. More employment if you are laid off(depending on the type of union). Retirement packages.

CanisNoir: Nice job trying to make me out as a racist

I was not trying to make you out as racist Mr McCain. It was an example.

CanisNoir: Better analogy would be... Show me someone's liberties being trampled upon and then you'll have a reason for the ACLU to exist.

That is a better analogy. Thanks for helping me show you the error of your ways.

CanisNoir: I havn't heard the story, but that would fall more under Immigration Law Enforcement or Child Slavery Laws not Unions.

If it was a union job It wouldn't have happened. So yes. It does have to do with unions.

Relatively Obscure:
The argument that "things are OK now" could have been used at any time in the history of unions. Have improvements been made? Absolutely. Have unions, in fact, gone overboard at times? I would definitely agree that they have. But there is no indication that the basic function of unions is obsolete to me.

I think that unions need to be reminded, however forcefully, of their real purpose, but that purpose still exists.


/Also, I love Bullshiat, despite the occasionally douchey nature of the hosts or the occasional disagreement I have with them.

Without having premium channels I don't get to watch that show really. I guess what I'm saying is that the true purpose of unions isn't decidedly needed today as long as federal laws are obeyed and enforced. I live in an "at will" state, which is probably why the Unions got traction here (that and the Big 3) but seriously, where I'm from back in "the day", getting a factory job at Ford was like the big legues. You had to know someone inside, but once there, the money was fantastic; not to mention quite a few of them drank and smoked on thier breaks. I know of one guy who slept in a trailer in the parking lot, scooped as much OT as he could possibly get and retired at 35 rich as hell. I also remember the talks where the company was plain saying "If we give you a pay increase we'll have to lay people off to make up the difference because we're hemoraging money" and the Unions mainly wanted thier pay. Granted, Unions alone didn't kill the Big 3, but damn if it didn't help them into the grave.

Then again maybe I just have the wrong idea of what the "true" purpose of a union is.

CanisNoir: Then again maybe I just have the wrong idea of what the "true" purpose of a union is.

fairness. Fair pay. Not firing someone who's been there for 20 years so the boss can hire his 18 year old nephew. legal recourse if the company violates labor laws.

Its the same reason Corporations are around and every company isn't a sole proprietorship. Strength in numbers.

Jeremy Bates: Observe, cretins:

Wages are not the only form of compensation. Try this graph:

Do some research.


log_jammin: such as?

The same problems any cartel creates. They raise compensation for their members over the market rate, which lowers employment. They raise benefits for their members at a cost to labourers who aren't their members.

sometimes quitting isn't an option no matter how bad it is. If it was there would be no such thing as sweatshops.

Sweatshops are not voluntary. We're talking about voluntary employment in the US, here. And sweatshops can be made illegal through legislative processes. What do unions bring to that table?

collective bargaining. for some insurance.

Why isn't your performance enough insurance? Why would a business want to lose effective employees?

Legal protections that the average work cant afford.

From what?

More employment if you are laid off(depending on the type of union). Retirement packages.

In a flexible economy, there are always other employers. Why can't you negotiate your own retirement package?

Last One Left: They raise benefits for their members at a cost to labourers who aren't their members.

actually, they raise benefits for non members too. if company A in union and pays 20 an hour and company B is non union and pays 5 an hour, where are people going to want to work? So Company B raises wages.

Last One Left: Sweatshops are not voluntary.

If they were involuntary then we'd be talking about slavery. Not sweatshops.

sweat·shop (swĕt'shŏp') pronunciation
n.

A shop or factory in which employees work long hours at low wages under poor conditions.

Last One Left: Why isn't your performance enough insurance? Why would a business want to lose effective employees?

sorry. I meant "health insurance". Many unions provide insurance and not the company. Thats part of what union dues are for.

Last One Left: From what?

companies not following labor laws. Lawyers are expensive and most people cant just go out and sue on their own.

Last One Left: In a flexible economy, there are always other employers.

yeah. and there is also MANY more workers.

Last One Left: Why can't you negotiate your own retirement package?

you can. You can also take advantage of a non union companies 401k. And you can also take advantage of your unions pension plan.

oh...and to top all this off...you vote on all of it. You also vote for the people who run the union.