Uh, Chris and Rich, The Stones would like a word with you.

The verse melody is a note-for-note copy, though.

How is that ironic? I bet they win. Its a blatant rip-off, and I've heard of much less similar songs losing cases like this.

Read the book "Sounds Like Teen Spirit"... excellent read.

downstairs: I bet they win.

I hope they win. John Rich is a douche nozzle. Albeit a very hard-working, rich and talented douche nozzle who could prolly have me killed in this town.

It would take an emotional judge honestly. The laws are fairly thin about how much you have to change something before it becomes an original idea. Can't be quoted, but I believe it's roughly 10% and she is using some different instruments and the words are completely different down to the last syllable. Could just be a coincidence altogether, or not, and could be thrown out.

They both sound like Rod Stewart to me.

Can't we just say they're both derivative and obvious and call it a day?

CowboyNinjaD: Can't we just say they're both derivative and obvious and call it a day?

Not so fast Cowboy, you lifted that quote verbatim from Psychotic Reactions and Carberator Dung.

- Lester Bangs Estate

It's a direct rip - maybe unconsciously, but it's a rip all the same. Unlike that idiot who thought he'd written a Coldplay song.

Wow, Rolling Zeppelin thinks someone sounds like them. Gretchen Wilson must have a song in A major.

let's write a song, guys... I'll start :

I am a red neck
I drank beerz
My collar is blue
how 'bout you?

okay next verse, someone...we're on the way to Nashvegas superstardom.

TSE: let's write a song, guys... I'll start :

I am a red neck
I drank beerz
My collar is blue
how 'bout you?

okay next verse, someone...we're on the way to Nashvegas superstardom.


I shot my wife
but she's mah sister
now i got no place
to stick my peter

The Black Crowes are my favorite band.

That being said, the ONLY purpose of this lawsuit is to get The Black Crowes' name in the media in order to try to sell a few more copies of Warpaint and a few more concert tickets. It's the same type of stunt their manager, Pete Angelus, pulled with the whole Maxim review thing.

I like how Tom Petty handled the whole RHCP ripping off Last Dance With Mary Jane thing a while back; he basically said there's better things in this world to worry about than who wrote what song.

Of course it helped that Petty ripped off the Jayhawks for Last Dance...

There's only so many chord progressions and melodies in pop music. Stuff is bound to get ripped off eventually, whether it be intentional or accidental.

brap: brap 2008-07-31 06:47:06 PM
They both sound like Rod Stewart to me.

This.

The fact is the Black Crowes sound like they are copying Stewert and
Wilson is ripping off the Crowes.

Big and Rich suck.

After listening to both songs I have to say, the Black Crowes have a pretty good case IMHO. At the beginning of the Gretchen Wilson song I thought it was the Black Crowes.

And is it sad that I prefer her's to their version? Guess I just got black crowed out in the 90s.

Wingman8104: TSE: let's write a song, guys... I'll start :

I am a red neck
I drank beerz
My collar is blue
how 'bout you?

okay next verse, someone...we're on the way to Nashvegas superstardom.


I shot my wife
but she's mah sister
now i got no place
to stick my peter

My cousin Billy
got caught in a thresher
now he looks like a sketch
by M.C. Escher

Link (new window)

ZoSo_the_Crowe: There's only so many chord progressions and melodies in pop music. Stuff is bound to get ripped off eventually, whether it be intentional or accidental.

There are 8 notes in an octave. Each note can be sharp, natural, or flat, but a C-sharp is the same as a D-flat, so in actuality there are only 8 natural notes, and 8 sharp/flat notes, for a total of 16 available notes. Studies of contestants on "Name That Tune" have shown that the typical melody can be conclusively identified in about 12 notes. Thus, there are a total of 192 possible melodies in any given octave. Music is generally written within a 5 octave range, giving a total of 960 possible melodies across all commonly-used octaves.

"Rock and Roll" music was invented in 1953, when Chuck Berry wrote "No Particular Place to Go." Since that time, according to Billboard Magazine, there have been approximately 250 singles released per year. At that rate, we ran out of melodies in late 1957. Consciously or unconsciously, every song "written" since 1957 has actually copied a melody of an existing song. No matter what song you can think of, the melody can be found on a single issued between 1953 and 1957.

/"The More You Know" star, and all that

She really is the kind of ugly, man-faced trash she sings about.



Nice tranny-brows, ya slag.

If "My Sweet Lord" is a ripoff of "He's So Fine" (poppity fresh), then Gretchen loses.

Uzzah:
There are 8 notes in an octave. Each note can be sharp, natural, or flat, but a C-sharp is the same as a D-flat, so in actuality there are only 8 natural notes, and 8 sharp/flat notes, for a total of 16 available notes.

...there are 12 semitones in a scale. There's no E sharp, F flat, B sharp, or C flat. The rest of your post makes sense though.

/well, okay, those notes do exist, but only when you're playing in really irritating keys, and F flat is the same pitch as E, etc.
//music nazi

Uzzah: There are 8 notes in an octave. Each note can be sharp, natural, or flat, but a C-sharp is the same as a D-flat, so in actuality there are only 8 natural notes, and 8 sharp/flat notes, for a total of 16 available notes.

Twelve notes. Not sixteen. Twelve.

Good call on the "ironic" tag, smitty. In their case, however, The Black Crowes seem to have mastered the art of sounding exactly like three or four better acts from the past without copying any specific song note-for-note.

Wow, someone just put my name in a country song(!)
coo-ool! :)

ridcullylives: The rest of your post makes sense though.

Don't encourage him.

/well, okay, those notes do exist, but only when you're playing in really irritating keys, and F flat is the same pitch as E, etc.
//music nazi

You're ok. Come over sometime and we can take turns spooning my copy of Slonimsky.

My Sweet Lord is clearly a ripoff:

Link (new window)

ZoSo_the_Crowe: The Black Crowes are my favorite band.

That being said, the ONLY purpose of this lawsuit is to get The Black Crowes' name in the media in order to try to sell a few more copies of Warpaint and a few more concert tickets. It's the same type of stunt their manager, Pete Angelus, pulled with the whole Maxim review thing.

I like how Tom Petty handled the whole RHCP ripping off Last Dance With Mary Jane thing a while back; he basically said there's better things in this world to worry about than who wrote what song.

Of course it helped that Petty ripped off the Jayhawks for Last Dance...

There's only so many chord progressions and melodies in pop music. Stuff is bound to get ripped off eventually, whether it be intentional or accidental.

Great way of summing this up. I write songs myself from time to time, and you'd be surprised at how hard it is to not subconsciously utilize parts of existing songs. I'll come up with something that sounds cool to me, only to realize (or more embarrassingly have it pointed out) that it's from another song with different words. Unless you're dealing in the highly experimental it is very hard not to do once in awhile. And hell, I'd say most pop melodies even go back further to classical or folk music forms as well. Take any rock song and play it on the harpsichord (or the harpsichord setting on an electronic keyboard) and it'll probably sound an awful lot like Bach. This happens. The only thing that's really changed in music in the last 500 years is the technology used to make it.

I'll admit that I think they have a case. However, I hope they lose, because I had to sit through a Crowes concert here in Birmingham last year, and I'm deathly allergic to jam bands. Honestly, I timed the songs, and they averaged about 10 minutes each. Worst case of Allmanbrotheritis I've seen in a long time.

/Robert Randolph was good
//Drive-by Truckers were best
///of course

just saw butch walker last weekend (live). he played some new songs. he also played some parts of old songs that had similar chords that he admits sound like his new stuff.

there are only so many chord and note combinations unless you want to play jazz and then it's just 5 guys all trying to find the right note. i hate jazz.

I hate to say this, but yeah...I think Mr. Robinson has a good case.

I've always been kind of a casual fan of the Black Crowes. I own some of their more popular albums, but I've never been to a show, and probably wouldn't. But I like them fine. They do walk a fine line though...It's tough to emulate the style or sound of a different era without seeming derivative or descending into self-parody, but I feel like they've always managed. They do a good blues-rock that sounds classic without being a ripoff. Kind of like that thing Amy Winehouse used to do with 60's Motown girl groups before she died.

As a card-carrying ASCAP member, I feel I can speak to the phenomenon here. It is admittedly really hard to come up with something that doesn't sound a lot like if not exactly like something else without meaning to. The trick is proving it was intentional. I mean, if you're good, you can change it just enough to make it SEEM different.

On a separate-but-related note...

I've known this one guy for years who is in a band, and he's their primary songwriter. You've heard of them, but I won't say who they are because I respect his privacy. This guy wrote a bunch of top-ten hits for his band, including a #1 once. They were a staple for a good couple of years. But pretty soon, they weren't the flavor of the month anymore, and they got dumped from their major like a lot of their contemporaries. But it didn't matter, because unlike a lot of their contemporaries, they were smart and knew the industry. They invested their earnings, buying real estate and their own studio. So they never had to stop. And they didn't

So, they're still together and still turning out phenomenal stuff. But they largely do it for themselves and their still-rabid fan base. A fan base which consistently sells out clubs despite the lack of radio and label support. They exist on their own terms independent of the machine, and they're doin' great. Some of the best stuff out there. BUT. He has also begun a lucrative second career writing #1 songs for other people. You've probably heard of a lot of them, too. They're mostly fresh-faced up-and-comers, and he works with them, writing them songs that are virtual guaranteed hits.

And there's where it gets interesting.

The stuff he writes for other people is much like the #1 hit he wrote for his own band: Catchy as all hell, very melodic, and simple. At least two of them have the same exact chord progression as his own band's #1. It's played in different tempo and different rhythm, and the lead vocal melodies are different...But the chord progression and verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-quiet chorus-loud chorus-outro formula is identical. As a result, radio eats it up, and he makes millions. And rightly so. But this happens despite the fact that radio is dismissive of his own band a lot of the time. They may not play his BAND...but they still play his SONGS. They just have to be seen as coming from somewhere else, which is asinine. It's the same source. It's just the differing perception of the delivery channel.

However. That's not to say that he's giving away the hits, because...For his band, they probably wouldn't be. They're too basic, and HIS band is far beyond that style now. The stuff he writes for his own band is a lot more textured, and album-oriented. It's still accessible, and amazing to listen to...But it's obvious he's crazy like a fox when it comes to his own work vs. the things that will have someone else's name on them. Art vs. Commerce. Mass consumption vs. This is for MY fan base. He keeps the REALLY good stuff for himself, and sends the other stuff where it will actually make him money. From HIS band, these tunes would be seen as a step back. For someone else, they're a great debut from which to grow. All in all, it's an fascinating scenario. He knows the system, and he plays the industry like a fiddle, writing pop hit after pop hit because he can. And when they're huge, it gives him more than enough capital to sustain his OWN project, which is where his passion lies.

Guy's a genius, not to mention prolific. He's actually coming out with a solo record, he's got so much great stuff just lying around, taking up space.

They ALL need to read the short story "Melancholy Elephants" by Spider Robinson, available free here Link (new window)

Uzzah: There are 8 notes in an octave. Each note can be sharp, natural, or flat, but a C-sharp is the same as a D-flat, so in actuality there are only 8 natural notes, and 8 sharp/flat notes, for a total of 16 available notes. Studies of contestants on "Name That Tune" have shown that the typical melody can be conclusively identified in about 12 notes. Thus, there are a total of 192 possible melodies in any given octave. Music is generally written within a 5 octave range, giving a total of 960 possible melodies across all commonly-used octaves.

WOW. There's so much wrong with that. I'll stick to the main two points, though.

1) As someone else pointed out, there are 12 tones in a given octave, not 16.
2) I'm not sure what prompted you to multiply 12 by 16 to get the total number of possible melodies; running with the assumption that 12 notes to ID a melody is correct, then the correct figure is 12^12, or roughly 8.9 trillion, within one octave (ignoring all rules of music composition). Even if you were to assume that a note can't be repeated, there would still be 12! potential melodies, or roughly 479 million.

/maybe I'm missing a joke
//certainly wouldn't be the first time

If this is a ripoff, then thousands of blues musicians can sue each other.

EthelPP
They ALL need to read the short story "Melancholy Elephants" by Spider Robinson, available free here Link (new window)

Excellent piece. Channeled RAH perfectly.

MaxxLarge:

I've known this one guy for years who is in a band, and he's their primary songwriter. You've heard of them, but I won't say who they are because I respect his privacy. This guy wrote a bunch of top-ten hits for his band, including a #1 once. They were a staple for a good couple of years. But pretty soon, they weren't the flavor of the month anymore, and they got dumped from their major like a lot of their contemporaries. But it didn't matter, because unlike a lot of their contemporaries, they were smart and knew the industry. They invested their earnings, buying real estate and their own studio. So they never had to stop. And they didn't

So, they're still together and still turning out phenomenal stuff. But they largely do it for themselves and their still-rabid fan base. A fan base which consistently sells out clubs despite the lack of radio and label support. They exist on their own terms independent of the machine, and they're doin' great. Some of the best stuff out there. BUT. He has also begun a lucrative second career writing #1 songs for other people. You've probably heard of a lot of them, too. They're mostly fresh-faced up-and-comers, and he works with them, writing them songs that are virtual guaranteed hits.

And there's where it gets interesting.

The stuff he writes for other people is much like the #1 hit he wrote for his own band: Catchy as all hell, very melodic, and simple. At least two of them have the same exact chord progression as his own band's #1. It's played in different tempo and different rhythm, and the lead vocal melodies are different...But the chord progression and verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-quiet chorus-loud chorus-outro formula is identical. As a result, radio eats it up, and he makes millions. And rightly so. But this happens despite the fact that radio is dismissive of his own band a lot of the time. They may not play his BAND...but they still play his SONGS. They just have to be seen as coming from somewhere else, which is asinine. It's the same source. It's just the differing perception of the delivery channel.

However. That's not to say that he's giving away the hits, because...For his band, they probably wouldn't be. They're too basic, and HIS band is far beyond that style now. The stuff he writes for his own band is a lot more textured, and album-oriented. It's still accessible, and amazing to listen to...But it's obvious he's crazy like a fox when it comes to his own work vs. the things that will have someone else's name on them. Art vs. Commerce. Mass consumption vs. This is for MY fan base. He keeps the REALLY good stuff for himself, and sends the other stuff where it will actually make him money. From HIS band, these tunes would be seen as a step back. For someone else, they're a great debut from which to grow. All in all, it's an fascinating scenario. He knows the system, and he plays the industry like a fiddle, writing pop hit after pop hit because he can. And when they're huge, it gives him more than enough capital to sustain his OWN project, which is where his passion lies.


Thanks for sharing this, that's an interesting anecdote. I think I might've figured out who you're talking about, but I'll go along with protecting privacy here. Kudos to him for knowing how to play the industry though.

MaxxLarge

You know Huey Lewis!?

Full disclosure alert:

I completely ripped the tune of Rabbi's Got a Knife (Trim The Weenie, Trim The Weenie) from a Shoprite Can-Can ad.

The estate of Pachalbel should sue 100 bands for ripping off Canon in D:

Link (clickity pop)

I think the Faces have a much reason for a suit against the Crowes.

What hypocrites.

better reason I meant

Martstar: Thanks for sharing this, that's an interesting anecdote. I think I might've figured out who you're talking about, but I'll go along with protecting privacy here. Kudos to him for knowing how to play the industry though.

I'm sure you did. There are enough details there for those who are attuned. :)

I'd be curious to see who you're thinking. Drop me an email at the address on my profile, if you feel like it. Even if it's not the same dude, maybe you can clue me in to someone similar I should start following.

Wouldn't be the first time that a series of chord changes were ripped off.

/I've got rhythm, I've got music...
//modern country sucks caulk.

mr. crows garden was a shiaty punk band from atlanta. rick rubin signed them, and sisk boom bah, three months later the blues infused black crows were born. i've been calling b.s. for years

Okay, many of my fellow farkers have pointed out the various idiotic fails in Uzzah's post so just let me add that as much as I love Chuck Berry, "Rocket 88", by Jackie Brenston with Ike Turner, was recorded in 1951 and is generally considered the first rock and roll song.
Also, Chuck wrote "No Particular Place to Go" in 1964, not 1953.
Dimwit.

Copyright infringement is difficult to prove with music. You've got to have a lot of elements match up (rhythm, texture, melody, harmony, "feel", etc.). Stronger cases are made when what is "stolen" is something relatively distinct (e.g. Wire v. Elastica) so that it becomes a "signature" (easily recognizable by many people within a few seconds). Some lazy piano chords, no matter how similar to "Desperado" they might be, probably won't wake up Don Henley's lawyers. But hearing that keyboard riff from "Dirty Laundry" in a song should. But it would have to be pretty close in several of those areas that I mentioned.

I hear true rip-offs all the time. They're called jingles (yes, I listen to the radio besides NPR). I mean, dead-on beds of various artists' styles, or a particular song.... U2, Allman Brothers, Santana, Oasis, Chili Peppers, Norah Jones, Madonna, Van Halen and (here in Austin TX) many country folks like Willie, Ricky Skaggs, Emmylou Harris, etc.

Back to Black Crowes... certainly there is similarity in the verse. However, as many farkers have pointed out already, the supposed source of this alleged theft is standard rhythmically and harmonically to the Chuck Berry-Rolling Stones-Faces tradition and the melody is not particularly unique. Lyrically, totally different. In this case, to me it's like Dana Carvey suing another comic because that person's impersonation of Johnny Carson is closer to his than to Rich Little's

on a separate note:

MaxxLarge: They may not play his BAND... but they still play his SONGS. They just have to be seen as coming from somewhere else, which is asinine. It's the same source. It's just the differing perception of the delivery channel.

Well, the delivery channel is more important than the song itself. That's what people are listening to, dancing to, singing along with, buying, watching. The words is the story being told, the music adds depth to it. But great musicians can play/sing any old piece of crap because it's still Frank Sinatra or Miles Davis or Elton John or Van Morrison or Eddie Vedder etc. Fortunately, great musicians usually prefer the challenge of performing great songs, so that helps.

And there are several great songwriters whose songs I would rather hear done by someone else, even a "flavor of the month" band or singer: B.Dylan, B.Springsteen, N.Young, L.Cohen to name a few (note that they are all very, very old). I have albums by all of them, but the songs are better than the performer. For them, that's good. Royalties are a beautiful thing.

/however, Scarlett Johansson... please step away from the Tom Waits catalog. The world thanks you.

Pronto_Breakneck

Twelve notes. Not sixteen. Twelve.

Only in western music, and I don't mean country & western, cream puff.

Is there a word more annoying than "Honky-Tonk."

marius2
Is there a word more annoying than "Honky-Tonk."

"hip hop"

skeeterjennings: Also, Chuck wrote "No Particular Place to Go" in 1964, not 1953.

And "No Particular Place to Go" = "School Day" (1957). Chuck Berry recycled a lot of his songs.

Uzzah: ZoSo_the_Crowe: There's only so many chord progressions and melodies in pop music. Stuff is bound to get ripped off eventually, whether it be intentional or accidental.

There are 8 notes in an octave. Each note can be sharp, natural, or flat, but a C-sharp is the same as a D-flat, so in actuality there are only 8 natural notes, and 8 sharp/flat notes, for a total of 16 available notes.


That's odd. I wonder why my guitars only have 12 notes between octaves.