Wiki: Allegations of plagiarism

The credits for Led Zeppelin II were the subject of some debate after the album's release. The prelude to "Bring It On Home" is a cover of Sonny Boy Williamson's "Bring It On Home" and drew comparisons with Willie Dixon's "Bring It On Back". "Whole Lotta Love" (sample (info)) shared some lyrics with Dixon's "You Need Love/Woman You Need Love", though the riff from the song was an original Jimmy Page composition. In the 1970s, Arc Music, the publishing arm of Chess Records, brought a lawsuit against Led Zeppelin for copyright infringement over "Bring It On Home"; the case was settled out of court.[16] Dixon himself did not benefit until he sued Arc Music to recover his royalties and copyrights. Sixteen years later, Dixon filed suit against Led Zeppelin over "Whole Lotta Love" and an out-of-court settlement was reached.[88] Later pressings of Led Zeppelin II credit Dixon. Similarly, the "Lemon Song", from the same album, included an adaptation of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor". The band and Chester Burnett reached an out-of-court settlement to give co-credit to the author of the original song.[89]

David Beard and Kenneth Gloag argue that while the way that Led Zeppelin drew on earlier R&B and rock and roll influences "...articulates a sense of truth and integrity, it has been shown that their dependence on these precendents bordered on plagiarism." [90] Dave Headlam, in an article entitled "Does the song remain the same? Questions of authenticity and identification in the music of Led Zeppelin", suggests that "...in the course of studies on the music of Led Zeppelin, it has become apparent that many songs are compilations of pre-existent material from multiple sources, both acknowledged and unacknowledged." He contends that "...songs like 'Whole Lotta Love' and 'Dazed and Confused' are on the one hand not "authored" by Led Zeppelin, but [rather are] traditional lyrics..." [91] However, noted blues author and producer Robert Palmer states "It is the custom, in blues music, for a singer to borrow verses from contemporary sources, both oral and recorded, add his own tune and/or arrangement, and call the song his own".

/ before you ask

Also for your reference

Dazed and Confused over who wrote it (new window)

and

More theft (new window)

there's no hate like Zep-hater hate...

or something.

The albums were good, the music was good. They went on to write more and more of their own music. There are only so many blues songs, eventually you have to borrow. The blues is about using a general idea, a basic idea or lyric, and creating a personal feel. They did that. They did it in a way that was their own. Listen to the first 4 albums and tell me they don't rock.

kungfu jesus with a side of lime: The albums were good, the music was good. They went on to write more and more of their own music. There are only so many blues songs, eventually you have to borrow. The blues is about using a general idea, a basic idea or lyric, and creating a personal feel. They did that. They did it in a way that was their own. Listen to the first 4 albums and tell me they don't rock.

Nobody has ever said they made bad rockandroll albums. They made GREAT rockandroll albums.

kungfu jesus with a side of lime: There are only so many blues songs, eventually you have to borrow.

There are only so many novels, eventually you have to borrow.
There are only so many paintings, eventually you have to borrow.
There are only so many etc etc

see how stupid that sounds?

It's not about borrowing riffs. It's about wholesale lifting of clearly established copyright and claiming authorship, and making millions from it.

The were fine to record any of those songs. Just let the original writers get their money too, m'kay?

Did Zeppelin know what they were doing when they released those first two albums and didn't credit the sources. Probably---I'm sure Jimmy and John Paul did, they were experienced and had been around the business. Did Atlantic records know? I'm sure. Has what the band done since then made up for the original plagiarism? I'm a huge fan and I I'd have to say no. Does that change the fact that the band created incredible music that 35-40 years later still sounds exciting, that they changed rock and roll history forever? Of course not

Yep they stole from old blues songs and were later forced to credit the original artists. Even so, they still made some of the best music ever recorded.

The Dynamite Monkey: kungfu jesus with a side of lime: The albums were good, the music was good. They went on to write more and more of their own music. There are only so many blues songs, eventually you have to borrow. The blues is about using a general idea, a basic idea or lyric, and creating a personal feel. They did that. They did it in a way that was their own. Listen to the first 4 albums and tell me they don't rock.

Nobody has ever said they made bad rockandroll albums. They made GREAT rockandroll albums.

kungfu jesus with a side of lime: There are only so many blues songs, eventually you have to borrow.

There are only so many novels, eventually you have to borrow.
There are only so many paintings, eventually you have to borrow.
There are only so many etc etc

see how stupid that sounds?

It's not about borrowing riffs. It's about wholesale lifting of clearly established copyright and claiming authorship, and making millions from it.

The were fine to record any of those songs. Just let the original writers get their money too, m'kay?

so you have only seen one painting of an apple or a naked women, you have seen only one monster, vampire, or alien movie. You have only read one novel that has included elves or dwarves. My point doesn't seem so silly to me.

I am not arguing that the original authors should have been paid, they should have. I am debating, though not with you, that having borowed material does not make them less of a band.

No shark?

here for the hate

/carry on
//Keith Richards stole most of "Exile On Main Street" from Gram Parsons, what?
///slashies

peewinkle: //Keith Richards stole most of "Exile On Main Street" from Gram Parsons, what?

Citation, please.

I stole Zeppelin songs off the Internet, let's call it even.

However, noted blues author and producer Robert Palmer states "It is the custom, in blues music, for a singer to borrow verses from contemporary sources, both oral and recorded, add his own tune and/or arrangement, and call the song his own"

His book Deep Blues is outstanding. He notes that, especially in the early days, singers would have oodles of couplets that would be used in any song at any time. According to him, the structuring of lyrics into something resembling a narrative was at the insistence of (white) producers for selling records.

That being said, it is extremely difficult to win an copyright infringement lawsuit on lyrics. The fact that these were settled out of court indicates that they were not without merit. And The Dynamic Monkey left out the rest of the wiki section on plagiarism, which is:

In an interview he gave to Guitar World magazine in 1993, Page commented on the band's use of classic blues songs: "[A]s far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing."

Apparently, Jimmy doesn't listen to what comes out of Robert's mouth. Otherwise, he would have said "hey, them's Willie Dixon's words for the most part. We can't submit this as an original composition. Go and makes up some new words so we can keeps all the money."

The Dynamite Monkey: peewinkle: //Keith Richards stole most of "Exile On Main Street" from Gram Parsons, what?

Citation, please.

There isn't what most people would call proof that Gram wrote Exile on Main Street, but there is a certain amount of circumstantial evidence. Gram stayed with Keith during the recording of the album, and there are certain stylistic similarities.

I certainly wouldn't use the term "stole" but Gram certainly influenced the final album.

Ace Frehley's Ghost: I certainly wouldn't use the term "stole" but Gram certainly influenced the final album.

But peewinkle said "stole" and compared it to Zeppelin's misappropriation.

And hopefully, Willie Dixon and Sonny Boy Williamson thanked Zeppelin for recording the definitive verions of their respective songs.

Eric Clapton does it, and it's just that he's such a fine blues man that he's carrying on the tradition of blues men stealing from each other.

Zep does it and OMG!?! Tey R Teh SUXOR?!?!?! or they can't write songs of their own.

Stealing from others is a long standing blues tradition. Zep was a blues band. Yeah, they didn't always cite their stealing, but did every blues man do that? hell no. Haters are just picking nits on one of the greatest bands of all time.

subby, look up how the blues works. thanks

iammess: Eric Clapton does it, and it's just that he's such a fine blues man that he's carrying on the tradition of blues men stealing from each other.

You can't read, apparently, or did not take the time to.

When Eric Clapton records old blues songs, he properly lists the authors and pays the songwriting royalties. In fact he's famously fastidious about it. Zeppelin, however, did the opposite -- they knew who the original authors were since they had registered publishing. They just put their own name on it anyway. When caught, they paid and changed it.

Got it?

iammess: Stealing from others is a long standing blues tradition.

Not stealing authorship, no.

iammess: Yeah, they didn't always cite their stealing, but did every blues man do that? hell no.

Please name me one "blues man" who claimed legal authorship of another previously legally registered song and pocketed the money.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

/ I know you won't reply.

the_knutsens: subby, look up how the blues works. thanks

Wow, man, that's so hipster cool, and yet it means nothing. I can do it too, watch:

the_knutsens, look up how songwriting copyright works. thanks.

Funny thing is, mine is easy to do, and yours means nothing.

Musicology101: And hopefully, Willie Dixon and Sonny Boy Williamson thanked Zeppelin for recording the definitive verions of their respective songs.

Now this is the most ridiculous thing in this entire thread of stoopit. Have you heard "Killin' Floor"?

Jesus H. Christ on a combine.

Musicology101: And hopefully, Willie Dixon and Sonny Boy Williamson thanked Zeppelin for recording the definitive verions of their respective songs.

It just occurred to me that you may have meant that sarcastically, and if you did, I apologize for missing it.

haha your band plays the blues and yet somehow, you can't get it to sound as good a zep.


ooohhh, that's right, its cause they stole and your composition is a bastion of ear-splitting originality


haha, i love zep hate.....

zeppelin=going down in the history of rock.

you=just going down, now, going down

SageTemple: haha your band plays the blues and yet somehow, you can't get it to sound as good a zep.

ooohhh, that's right, its cause they stole and your composition is a bastion of ear-splitting originality

haha, i love zep hate.....

zeppelin=going down in the history of rock.

you=just going down, now, going down

WTF are you talking about? OK I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, admittedly, but I do not know what your point is.

my point is that you biatch about it like your opinion matters


they remain, 30+ years after the fact, one of the biggest bands on the planet, with each of their members being the standouts in their respective fields.

jimmy page = one the greats on guitar, like it or not, contemporaries include beck, clapton, hendrix, will be mentioned with the greats

bonham - one of the best on drums. contemporaries included moon, baker, will be mentioned with the greats

jones -- one of the finest bassists, still a fantastic composer and arranger that has no shortage of work -- contemporaries include pastorius, entwhistle....will become one of the greats.

plant -- still laying down fantastic tracks with a wide range of artists, one of the best frontmen in rock. will be mentioned with the greats.


and that my friend...is the truth. you can whine and present facts all you want...but the real deal is that very very very few people give a shiat, and even less give a shiat what you think...so go ahead...cry about it -- zep defined a lot of those old blues standards for a generation....just because some vague definition of western law can only trace authorship back to the early 20th century doesn't mean that's where it began

i mean, fark -- you do know that your favourtie band stole all their ideas from some toga wearing pederast, right, cause they are oh-so-different using that II chord......

also,

going down, going down now


is a great lyric by memphis minnie.

oh, wait, no its not

IT FROM LED ZEPPELIN!!!1ONE111!!1

SageTemple: i mean, fark -- you do know that your favourtie band stole all their ideas from some toga wearing pederast, right, cause they are oh-so-different using that II chord......

Please tell me you are drunk. Because that would make it OK.

If you read above, you would notice that I mention I like Zeppelin's albums. A lot.

They just did a thing I find personally repulsive. Both can be true. You know, OJ was a helluva running back and all that...

None of those facts contradict with the things you post. And they are not "my opinions" they are verifiable facts with citations.

I will also point out that this is a discussion thread, the purpose of which is... wait for it... discussion, and the sharing of facts and opinions. Even dopey posts like yours are OK.

SageTemple: but the real deal is that very very very few people give a shiat, and even less give a shiat what you think

I know at least one person who does, apparently.

yikes, if me being drunk validates you and your half assed ideology than sure, 3 sheets to the wind

just don't listen to anyone that plays an E,then an A, and then a B again, while complaining about not getting laid and having no money, ok, its personally repulsive.

and if they solo using a pentatonic scale, well those are just deviants and miscreants of the highest order.

AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE should you enjoy a flatted fifth....that's the devil right there, thieving bastard.

/awww, you think I care...you're so sweet
//would you say the blues is best played in dorian? or locrian? maybe ionian mode. golly, those are strange words, wherever could they have come from....oh, of course, early southern music, where the universe began
///idiot.

Did Led Zeppelin EVER give Jake Holmes credit for writing "Dazed and Confused", or did they just take the money and run?

citation=

brown sugar


wikipedia it

/or read the books
//or listen to the albums
///or just not care at all

oooooooopps "Exile?"

oh yeah, listen to Gram Parsons 1969 album (not the Flying Burritos' album)


I meant "exile"

git

off of

my lawn

early southern music, where the universe began

Hee hee, that's funny. You a funny thang.

Back to reality: Zep's a great band, one of the best. As Jimmy Page admitted, they got nailed on the lyrics (not crediting authorship and paying royalties) and paid an acceptable settlement to the authors and/or copyright holders. It doesn't diminish their legacy.

/nor George Harrison's legacy
//nor Ray Parker, Jr, had he had a legacy

peewinkle: citation=

brown sugar


wikipedia it

/or read the books
//or listen to the albums
///or just not care at all

oooooooopps "Exile?"

oh yeah, listen to Gram Parsons 1969 album (not the Flying Burritos' album)


I meant "exile"

git

off of

my lawn

what song of Gram's did Keef plagiarize exactly?

FAIL

Every musician out there ripped of some other musician. It has all been done before...get over it and enjoy the music.

Hah! Great headline

A++++++ Would click again.

The Dynamite Monkey
you have posted too many times in this thread.

the fark police have been alerted and will be arriving soon.

put on some zeppelin, pour some beers, and roll a j or you will quietly dissipate into the Internets.


seriously though as a aspiring guitar player the first thing I began to notice when learning classic rock favorites of mine was that they constantly depended on many of the exact same chords in some slightly tweaked order.

it happens.


/doesn't care about said theft.
//zeppelins legacy has not been tarnished by this as much as O.J.'s like you suggested

Jayzbo: seriously though as a aspiring guitar player the first thing I began to notice when learning classic rock favorites of mine was that they constantly depended on many of the exact same chords in some slightly tweaked order.

But this is why I have to keep posting.

Because people don't read.

You know this comic?



Silly but I like it. Everyone needs a hobby.

/ And it ain't about "tweaked chords"
// it pays to keep threads hoppin' lest they die
/// Just ask Bevets or H.O.V.

Golf clap, subby.