FTFA:Duluth city administrators are considering charging property owners and drivers fees for police and fire responses.

Isn't that what Taxes are for?

They already do charge for ambulance rides.

Problem is, if they're charging for the service, they are effectively maintaining a monopoly. There should be some other competitor police or firemen with which residents would be able to shop to try and get the best deal for emergency services.

Come to think of it, this poor guy might finally be in luck.

FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

I'd do it. I want to have people pay for my police and fire responses.

Welcome to America, we can put a price tag on anything. F*ck you.

As long as they don't pay taxes, sure.

and the police will charge $1000.00 a night.

Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

I LOL'd.

Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Yes, let's follow the example of the Burnsville Fire Department...

Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

Is that bordering Rapetown?

Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

A drop in the bucket.

How about not using taxpayer money to pay 10 idiots to take three days to sort of fix a single pothole?

This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

My father-in-law was recently air lifted from one hospital to another in Virginia. He loved looking out the window. It cost him $50,000. I told him next time he wants a sight seeing tour we'll pay for a tour helicopter.

zymosan: This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Ashley Dupre.

Duluth city administrators are considering charging property owners and drivers fees for police and fire responses.

Can the residents withhold payment or even sue for poor and/or shoddy workmanship? Can they deduct these fees from their property tax bill? Can they choose to undertake police "services" as a do it yourself project? What happens if a renter or out of town visitor decides to just refuse to pay?

SpinStopper: A drop in the bucket.

How about not using taxpayer money to pay 10 idiots to take three days to sort of fix a single pothole?

I'd be willing to bet it would save the taxpayers even more to not pay seven idiot city council members to sit around coming up with ideas like charging for basic emergency services.

The old fire department unions that used to argue over the price of their services while the "customer's" house burned also used to go around making business owners pay them weekly fees. And if they didn't pay the fees, it was amazing how often there would be a "spontaneous" fire in a building owned by someone who didn't pay those fees.

So, when do we start charging prisoners and their families for their 'rooms'?

drevil877: Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

Is that bordering Rapetown?

No. But it should be renamed to Burnsdown.

Eddie_Dean_NY: I'd be willing to bet it would save the taxpayers even more to not pay seven idiot city council members to sit around coming up with ideas like charging for basic emergency services.

The old fire department unions that used to argue over the price of their services while the "customer's" house burned also used to go around making business owners pay them weekly fees. And if they didn't pay the fees, it was amazing how often there would be a "spontaneous" fire in a building owned by someone who didn't pay those fees.

I'm ashamed to be human.

Most of the time a fire department service charge will be covered under homeowners insurance. If they come for a car fire, your policy will generally pay "reasonable expenses to prevent further damage to covered property".

This just means that people living in these areas will pay more for insurance.

Burnsville: When living north of the river is just too scary.

ToxicMunkee: Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

Did you just pull that straight from Gangs of New York? Is that where kids get their history these days?

The Angry Hand of God: Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

Ever hear of the phrase, "nickel and diming someone to death"? The government certainly has.

That shiat adds up, dummy.

molineskytown: Problem is, if they're charging for the service, they are effectively maintaining a monopoly. There should be some other competitor police or firemen with which residents would be able to shop to try and get the best deal for emergency services.

From The Onion: Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department

If people don't pay for "accident investigation" can their wrecked car just be pushed off the road until rush hour is over?

Wasn't the idea of a free fire department to prevent things getting out of hand Chicago fire style?

daffy: My father-in-law was recently air lifted from one hospital to another in Virginia. He loved looking out the window. It cost him $50,000. I told him next time he wants a sight seeing tour we'll pay for a tour helicopter.

Do they tell you that before they arrange the lift? Because, you know, my life would not be worth it if I had to spend the rest of it in that much debt. I'd just take my chances at the one hospital.

SpinStopper: I'm ashamed to be human.

At different points in history, some humans come up with the bright idea of actually treating each nicely, with respect, and individual rights, and the possibility of not acting like a bunch of poo-flinging apes. They make laws to protect everyone from crap like that, or tell their friends to go out and do good by others.

We usually kill these people.

Smarshmallow: ToxicMunkee: Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

Did you just pull that straight from Gangs of New York? Is that where kids get their history these days?

I actually meshed Gangs of New York, and a book my husband read about the realities of the period. It was longer, but even I bored myself so I cut it way down.

See..now I'm boring myself again.

Years ago the city of Boston tried to charge extra tax for a big building claiming it was for extra fire protection expenses. The courts shut that down saying fire protection is a public good to be funded out of general revenue. There are three types of revenue the government here is allowed to collect using its power as a government: taxes, user fees, and fines. Taxes are uniform. User fees are optional. Fire protection in Boston is not optional therefore it can not be funded out of user fees.

ZAZ: Years ago the city of Boston tried to charge extra tax for a big building claiming it was for extra fire protection expenses. The courts shut that down saying fire protection is a public good to be funded out of general revenue. There are three types of revenue the government here is allowed to collect using its power as a government: taxes, user fees, and fines. Taxes are uniform. User fees are optional. Fire protection in Boston is not optional therefore it can not be funded out of user fees.

What building was it? I'm curious, because we're moving into a new research building, and they're extremely restrictive about the amount of flammables we can have on the higher floors. I'm wondering if this is a response to that.

Smarshmallow: ToxicMunkee: Yeah, I totally think we should fall back to the 1860's where local gangs controlled the fire department and let buildings burn while payment was agreed upon.

Oh, and the pillaging. Can't forget the pillaging.

Did you just pull that straight from Gangs of New York? Is that where kids get their history these days?

Are you saying that just because the concept of competing fire departments was in Gangs of New York it didn't happen?

Link

So who would they charge for a call to an abandoned property? If the property was owned, but the owner out of town, would the owner be responsible for the charge on a call for help he/she didn't make? What if the owner doesn't want the police called, but a neighbor calls? Or a non-resident at the property calls? Or a minor resident at the property calls.

I can just see someone say" I didn't call for help. I decided I would rather see my house burn down that to pay the fee. If Mrs. Kravitz didn't want to see my house burn down, she should pay the fee!"

Or we'll see the inevitable theft/homeinvasion where they were already robbed and now have to pay a fee to prove they were robbed. And let's say they know who did it, they will have to pay to prove they were robbed and to be an informant. I thought the cops were looking into ways of stopping crime by making it not so bad to be a narc.

i4adodge: Most of the time a fire department service charge will be covered under homeowners insurance. If they come for a car fire, your policy will generally pay "reasonable expenses to prevent further damage to covered property".

This just means that people living in these areas will pay more for insurance.

That's what the article didn't mention- The HOMEOWNER is NOT billed- their INSURANCE is. This has been going on for a few years. Ambulance companies have the ability to "Balance-bill" -If the patient's insurance doesn't pay, they can bill the patient. Police and fire are not legally allowed to balance-bill. If the insurance doesn't pay, too bad, sorry, thanks for the free service. It is up to the municipal gov't to pass an ordinance allowing the police and fire co. to bill the insurance company, which is what this article fails to explain.
A new fire engine (A BASIC one, not even a fancy one) costs around $200,000.00. They go up from there. We bought one in 1999, and the few add-ons we made (Custom cab instead of dump-truck-type commercial cab) meant it cost $238,000.00. Thanks to some pointless changes in NFPA certifications, a new Breathing Apparatus costs AT LEAST $5800.00. Gloves? $30-60/pr. Boots? $135-250. Everything costs more.
The other problem- People aren't volunteering any more. In 1982, our department had a maximum 35-member roster, with a 2-year waiting list. We now have 12 members to do the same work, with 4 times the amount of required training.
If you don't like having to pay an extra few bucks a year for your homeowners insurance, get off your fat, sarcastic, criticizing rear and volunteer. Otherwise, shut up. You don't even have to say "Thanks". Just keep your grumbling to yourself when your neighbor has to leave his child's birthday party to respond to a vehicle accident, or has to get up at 3AM and put out a fire, then be at work at 8, because they DON'T GET PAID!

If someone tries to put a fire out themselves, and it causes a loss of life and property, would the city be liable for criminal negligence?

The Angry Hand of God: Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

Not to get too deep into Minnesota politics, but it's due to the fact that cities are getting less and less financing in local government aid from the state. Hence, they've had to come up with hairbrained schemes like this to balance their budgets.

Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

Sadly, this will become more common, as taxpayers continue demanding that the government provide more services while not giving them the ability to raise funds through increased taxes and bonding.

// unfunded mandates FTL

Rev. Skarekroe: Are you saying that just because the concept of competing fire departments was in Gangs of New York it didn't happen?

No, but her description pretty much exactly matched that of a scene from the movie.

So the US accepts socialized firefighting - but not socialized medicine?

Hal Jalykakik: Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

It's part of the republican "local government" plan. This way, rich towns get to keep more of their tax dollars.

Hal Jalykakik: The Angry Hand of God: Papas says the fees could bring in an extra $100,000 per year for the city facing a $4.5 million deficit.

Duluth Minn Total population: 86810.

Let's say 50,000 pay taxes. $2 a person or approx .005 cents a day. Big Deal.

Not to get too deep into Minnesota politics, but it's due to the fact that cities are getting less and less financing in local government aid from the state. Hence, they've had to come up with hairbrained schemes like this to balance their budgets.

Since the early 2000s, when financing schemes for many local services were changed, many municipalities have been increasingly feeling the crunch. They've been asked to take up the slack once provided by state aid, but have not been able to raise taxes to pay for services citizens demand and expect from the local government.

Sadly, this will become more common, as taxpayers continue demanding that the government provide more services while not giving them the ability to raise funds through increased taxes and bonding.

// unfunded mandates FTL

The point that I was trying to make, which I was unclear about, is that there is still 4.4 million dollars needed to offset this defecit. It is going to come out of the taxpayers pockets no matter how you cut it. I think it is a little ridiculous when the government reassociates this need to neutralize the defecit, by making up "projects" like this.

FTFA: City spokesman Jeff Papas

Mmmmm. Potatoes!

Lucidz: FTA:
He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville.

Well I think we know how it earned THAT name.

drevil877: Is that bordering Rapetown?

Over there by Pillagetown. They're all in Vikingraid County.

FTA: "He says the plan is modeled on a similar ordinance in Burnsville."


Am I the only one who read that as "Bumsville"?

come to Tallahassee Florida, we get hit with a fee for fire protection every month, its tacked on to your utility bill.

But, there is no state tax in Florida, and I'd rather pay 84 bucks a year to the fire department, than give 84 dollars in taxes, where 99% of it is just going into some stupid earmark.

Fire protection should be like healthcare, they'll put out the fire, but you better have insurance, or expect a bill.


wingnut396: So, when do we start charging prisoners and their families for their 'rooms'? Most prisons make prisoners do work like cook and clean, and do laundry, so they do sort of pay for thier room

Not to necessarily defend this silly scheme, but maybe they could just charge for nuisance calls? Like from those jackasses who called 911 >100 times a month just for entertainment? First fake call for free, after that, it's at least $5. That way no one who called for a legitimate reason would get charged extra, but they'd have an excuse to throw people in jail for prank calling the fire department if they didn't pay the fine. Everyone wins.

zymosan: This may be the worst idea ever.

I really don't understand how cities go bankrupt, wouldn't they just see this coming and raise taxes?

I mean I pay a shiat load of taxes as it is already, where the fark is all that money going?

Well, in my city (suburb with little tax base), it's because the city workers have a defined benefit plan and pay absolutely nothing for healthcare. Everybody else had to give up the Golden Parachute a long time ago. Government workers still get their COLA raises, and everytime there's a hiccup in the stock market, they want a millage to offset their pension losses.

And then there's how cities have lost so much federal funds, but that's a different rant.