If it's so important to the Israelis they can try to replace the coalition forces with their own military forces if they want, don't let us get in the way.

Israel is that guy who hangs out with you, just to tell you to make an ass of you when you're drunk. Except instead of just making an ass of America, its resulting in deaths of our citizens. You guys want your own country? No problem. GTFO of our country, and stop voting in American elections for Israeli interests.

Whether or not Israel should or should not be there is irrelevant. Its there now. I know that there are idiots who hate Israel for being Israel, there are anti-semetics, and so on. But there are also the opposite on the pro-Israel side of the spectrum. And neither excuses what some people in the states are doing.

/Had to get that out of the way before the thread starts
//Loves Jewish culture and the religion, nearly converted
///Israeli politics... ehhhh, not so much

Blah blah blah.
Less than 2% of the U.S. population is Jewish, stop worrying about Israel already. Shut up and share the land.

Perhaps he'll withdraw and send the PM's of Iraq and Israel a pearl necklace.

It's time for Israel to grow up, get a job, and support itself.

Israel is like the US having a 60 year old kid living in the basement telling his mom who supports him what he wants for dinner.

sforce: Blah blah blah.
Less than 2% of the U.S. population is Jewish, stop worrying about Israel already. Shut up and share the land.

sforce: Blah blah blah.
Less than 2% of the U.S. population is Jewish, stop worrying about Israel already. Shut up and share the land.

This! It is embarrassing to see how much American politicians pander to them. My 15 year old cousin and I was watching a program about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and his answer was "Share the farking land dipshiats"

/It really is that simple

59% of [US] Adults Want Troops Home from Iraq Within the Year


Forward article mentioned in TFA

A Skeptical Audience Awaits Barack Obama in Israel

Party Boy: Forward article mentioned in TFA

Nevermind, this article is on another story from today's Ynet. Its 5 am.

Hey, we've got less than four months before the election.

Obama will change his position on this six, maybe seven times before then.

cirby: Hey, we've got less than four months before the election.

Obama will change his position on this six, maybe seven times before then.

I don't see why he'd do that, given that he's gotten this far without really changing it even once.

This is the headline to look out for when there is end-of-year voting for FARK's Headline of the Year.

Biological Ali: cirby: Hey, we've got less than four months before the election.

Obama will change his position on this six, maybe seven times before then.

I don't see why he'd do that, given that he's gotten this far without really changing it even once.


LOL WHUT

TO warn means it ain't happened yet.

neocortex: LOL WHUT

The first stance he ever held on the Iraq withdrawal was (and remains, to the best of my knowledge) that there needs to be a "phased withdrawal", with combat troops pulled out at a steady pace. This plan allowed for a number of US troops to remain in Iraq to train security forces and perform counterterrorist operations. If Obama now holds a different position from this, I'd love to hear it.

Last survey I saw in Israel showed 46 per cent for McCain, 21 per cent for Obama, and 33 per cent who asked, "who?" Obama has just set a record for the fast flip flop in history on Jerusalem. No one here is going to believe a word he says. They'll just humor him.

Anyone know his plan du jour to prevent Iran from getting nukes? Doesn't matter, we'll bomb them ourselves when the time comes.

Also before the would-be generalissimo gets carried away with his big plan for a surge in Afghanistan, maybe he should make a side trip to Russia to talk to Gorbachov. The Russians had up to 130,000 troops in there over eight years, no media scrutiny, no holds barred, and saw it was hopeless. Those who know that country say to make progress you have to do more to help the people, community development they call that. Put in more troops and the Taliban with their billions in narcotics money will just recruit a matching number.

Imagine trying to support the argument that in America, African-Americans should be segregated into compounds because "those people" can't be educated, lord knows we've tried all these years. And then they show their gratitude by attacking us.

Thats the argument I got from Israeli citizens on the question of Palestine.

idov: Last survey I saw in Israel showed

Are we supposed to care?

Generation_D: Imagine trying to support the argument that in America, African-Americans should be segregated into compounds because "those people" can't be educated, lord knows we've tried all these years. And then they show their gratitude by attacking us.

Thats the argument I got from Israeli citizens on the question of Palestine.

You're right, that would never work in America. At least not with blacks. For one, they never owned the land we wanted.



Just gotta pick your bogeymen properly.

Fark Israel. They've shiat on the friendship one time too many. It's all take take take. They need us faaaar more than we need them. It's about time they realized it. Jerks.

And to think, they used to be nice folks.

idov: Those who know that country say to make progress you have to do more to help the people, community development they call that.

Good thing that in conjunction with more troops is Obama's plan or he'd be in trouble.

That 3% has a lot of property in New York and Los Angeles.

fark Israel. Let GOD protect their asses.

As Israel has such a long history of peacefully occupying other people's land without upsetting anyone, I'm sure their advice is worth listening to.

I am surprised Israel would negotiate with terrorists like Obama.

morning_foil: Who the fark cares what Israel thinks?

Anyone who wants to get elected...

How dare those Israelis warn Obama that they think pulling out of the American war in Iraq too fast will destabilize the region that Israel has to live in! How dare they do such a thing while Obama is in Israel to talk with Israelis about political issues that matter to Israelis! A travesty!

mea.culpa: How dare those Israelis warn Obama that they think pulling out of the American war in Iraq too fast will destabilize the region that Israel has to live in! How dare they do such a thing while Obama is in Israel to talk with Israelis about political issues that matter to Israelis! A travesty!

Maybe they should keep it between them and him rather than telling the world that they are going to tell the only superpower in the world what they should do. It's embarrassing.

wolvernova: mea.culpa: How dare those Israelis warn Obama that they think pulling out of the American war in Iraq too fast will destabilize the region that Israel has to live in! How dare they do such a thing while Obama is in Israel to talk with Israelis about political issues that matter to Israelis! A travesty!

Maybe they should keep it between them and him rather than telling the world that they are going to tell the only superpower in the world what they should do. It's embarrassing.

I totally agree! Every other nation on earth speaks only behind closed doors to America. You never see France or Germany recommending policy in public! Those uppity Israelis are so crass.

mea.culpa

I agree. Israel has been enjoying this Iraqi distraction. It seems extremist groups have been focusing more on Iraq than blowing up Israelis in the market place. Hey, they get to sell millions of bullets to the troops for the effort too. If Iran wasn't training extremist to go into Iraq, they would be training them to go into Israel. Iraqi seems to be a pretty powerful vacuum sucking extremist crap from Israel. I can't see why Israel would'nt want to this war drug out. As soon as the American troops leave all focus will be back on attacking Israel and terrorizing it's citizens.

Israeli Politics truly belongs in the Middle East. As far as I'm concerned they are similar to any other country in that region. It's a real shame for the common man.

mea.culpa: wolvernova: mea.culpa: How dare those Israelis warn Obama that they think pulling out of the American war in Iraq too fast will destabilize the region that Israel has to live in! How dare they do such a thing while Obama is in Israel to talk with Israelis about political issues that matter to Israelis! A travesty!

Maybe they should keep it between them and him rather than telling the world that they are going to tell the only superpower in the world what they should do. It's embarrassing.

I totally agree! Every other nation on earth speaks only behind closed doors to America. You never see France or Germany recommending policy in public! Those uppity Israelis are so crass.

More than anything, it's a matter of respect, something Israel doesn't know how do demonstrate. It's almost like clockwork how regularly they come out and bite the hand that feeds them.

wolvernova: Maybe they should keep it between them and him rather than telling the world that they are going to tell the only superpower in the world what they should do. It's embarrassing.

To be fair, the Israelis have been consistent on this

(2007) Olmert tells AIPAC: Early Iraq exit would destabilize entire Mideast

(2004) Israel: Intel Services Made Poor Iraq Assessments

(2004) Israel knew Iraq had no WMD, says MP

(2002) Sharon to panel: Iraq is our biggest danger

(2002) Israel puts pressure on US to strike Iraq

Israel didn't want a war in Iraq because they feared it'd destabilize the region and give Iran more power. "If you're going to attack someone, why not Iran!" they said. Even though attacking Iran was just as terrible an idea, you can't blame Israel for the mess America made of Iraq, America did that all on its own. Now Israel says they don't want America to just up and leave the country a smoldering mess full of militants created by America's own actions, and this makes Israel the bad guy?

Only America gets to look out for number one; Israel should just zip it and be a silent martyr while dealing with the mess America made. In fact, fark Israel for saying anything about it! Sure guys, real fair and balanced.

mea.culpa: Israel didn't want a war in Iraq

Psst, look up

mea.culpa:

Actually, yes, Israel should shut their biatch mouths and thank the heavenly Gods that they have the control over our foreign policy that they do. They're telling the press that they are going to tell a presidential candidate that he should operate his Iraq policy differently than he himself plans and the majority of America wants. That is beyond insulting, it is arrogant. I think it's time we take their allowance money away and shut down AIPAC.

Israel didn't want a war in Iraq because they feared it'd destabilize the region and give Iran more power.

Whatever. They were hoping we would invade Iran too, while they stood on the sidelines and watch the US take the losses.

I think Jewish people are fine and I have nothing against the common citizen of Israel. Israeli Politics is just as evil as ours or Iran for that matter.

Party Boy: mea.culpa: Israel didn't want a war in Iraq

Psst, look up

Nice job.

Party Boy: mea.culpa: Israel didn't want a war in Iraq

Psst, look up

From your articles:

Sharon said that "we don't know for certain if the U.S. will attack Iraq. Iraq is a great danger. It could be said it is the greatest danger. We aren't intervening in U.S. decisions." But he said that "strategic coordination between Israel and the U.S. has reached unprecedented dimensions."

This was in an article titled "Sharon to panel: Iraq is our biggest danger." Israel recognizes America's position but does not publicly pressure the US in their decision. Is Israel pressuring America to attack as the article states or is Israel making a public statement that agrees with America's desire, has not desire to denounce it, but doesn't make a recommendation. Supposedly, Israel is supposed to do whatever the US says, that's exactly what this diplomatic statement is doing.

It's not that I don't see Israel as being fully willing for a war in Iraq and thinking it could benefit them, but to say Israel pressured the US into war with Iraq is simply not true.

Earlier this week Mr Sharon told the Knesset's foreign affairs committee that Iraq was Israel's "greatest danger" but Israel was not pressing for an attack. A day later, however, he met Israel's air force chiefs and toured Israel's air defences.

"Mr Gissin is usually more alarmist than anybody else but there is no doubt that he is his master's voice. It is in the interest of the prime minister to heat things up a bit," Ron Pundak, director of the Peres Centre for Peace, said.

"Mr Sharon sees eye to eye with the extremists in the Pentagon. He is a very cunning tactician. It suits him to speak like this at this juncture."

From the article titled "Israel puts pressure on US to strike Iraq." In this article, the body suggests that the first quote I put in bold was a sign that Israel wasn't pressuring the US to go to war, but then claims that his actions the next day showed that he was. "A day later, however, he met Israel's air force chiefs and toured Israel's air defences."

If a war looks to be coming, one that may well draw attacks on your country, you shouldn't make a public show of your military defenses to your citizens?

At the very strongest, Israel was using very soft language to "pressure" the US into war. At the same time:

Wilkerson, then a member of the State Department's Policy Planning Staff and later chief of staff for Secretary of State Colin Powell, recalled in an interview with IPS that the Israelis reacted immediately to indications that the Bush administration was thinking of war against Iraq. After the Israeli government picked up the first signs of that intention, Wilkerson says, "The Israelis were telling us Iraq is not the enemy -- Iran is the enemy."

Wilkerson describes the Israeli message to the Bush administration in early 2002 as being, "If you are going to destabilise the balance of power, do it against the main enemy."

Israel Warned US Not to Invade Iraq after 9/11

Let me be clear. This is annoying in itself. I still maintain that attacking Iran is a terrible idea. It is actually somewhat damming of Israel's thinking that they were looking for an attack on Iran as far back as 2002. However, if the issue at hand is Iraq, this reveals the subtext of their very white-washed statements leading up to the war. Like I said, they may have seen possible advantages in the Iraq situation if it went ahead, but they hardly pressured the US into it.

wolvernova: shut down AIPAC.

Meh, ethnic/interest groups looking after their interests probably shouldn't be illegal - I think it should have more disclosure and openness. Some people advocate that they and all other advocates of other nations should register under the Foreign Agents Registration Act. I'm not sure if this is the best solution.

----
another


Saddam Hussein's surprise acceptance of "unconditional" United Nations weapons inspections put Israel on the hot seat this week, forcing it into the open as the only nation actively supporting the Bush administration's goal of Iraqi regime change.

Party Boy: Meh, ethnic/interest groups looking after their interests probably shouldn't be illegal

Well what they really need to do is register as a foreign agent. It is shameful that we let them have this undue unfluence.

mea.culpa: From your articles:

weak

Israel Urges U.S. to Attack
JERUSALEM -- Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday.


Israel To U.S.: Don't Delay Iraq Attack
Sharon Government Urges Prompt Action Against Saddam


Israel urges U.S. to attack Iraq sooner rather than later

wolvernova: It is shameful that we let them have this undue unfluence.

Its more of an issue to me that the US population doesnt pressure their govt in the same ways for our collective interests

wolvernova: mea.culpa:

Actually, yes, Israel should shut their biatch mouths and thank the heavenly Gods that they have the control over our foreign policy that they do. They're telling the press that they are going to tell a presidential candidate that he should operate his Iraq policy differently than he himself plans and the majority of America wants. That is beyond insulting, it is arrogant. I think it's time we take their allowance money away and shut down AIPAC.

"I think that will just encourage those who want to completely destabilize and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and a victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for an Obama victory," [Australian Prime Minister] Howard said on Nine Network television.

Quite a bit stronger wording. Israel is not the only nation to make policy recommendations. There are less sensitive issues, to be sure, but to state that other nations should remain silent and do whatever America wants is madness.

Party Boy:
another


Saddam Hussein's surprise acceptance of "unconditional" United Nations weapons inspections put Israel on the hot seat this week, forcing it into the open as the only nation actively supporting the Bush administration's goal of Iraqi regime change.

Israel should shut it's mouth and support America in whatever it does. How dare they shut their mouth and support America! As I said above, I'm well aware that Israel was not against America's actions, just that they did in no way pressure the US into the war.

Israel needs to shut the fark up; if they don't like it, they can take all of that money we're giving them and go into Iraq themselves. They've bit our hand and played the victim in that region for far too long; it's time we stopped basing our entire foreign policy there on whatever Israel might want. Fark 'em.

Party Boy: wolvernova: It is shameful that we let them have this undue unfluence.

Its more of an issue to me that the US population doesnt pressure their govt in the same ways for our collective interests

It's partly a massive slander campaign. If the mainstream news really gave AIPAC the attention they deserve, the editors would be labeled as bigots. It's pretty f-ed up.

Netanyahu's greatest hits

(2001) Statement by Former PM Benjamin Netanyahu at the Hearing of the US House Government Reform Committee- Preparing for the war on terrorism
• Take away all the state support and the entire scaffolding of international terrorism will collapse into the dust. The international terrorist network is thus based on regimes: on Iraq, on Iran, on Syria, on Taliban Afghanistan, Yasser Arafat's Palestinian authority, and several other Arab regimes such as the Sudan. These regimes are the ones that harbor the terrorist groups. Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, Hizbullah and others in Syrian controlled Lebanon, Hamas Islamic Jihad, and the recently mobilized Fatah and Tanzim factions in the Palestinian territories, and sundry other terror organizations based in such capitals as Damascus, Baghdad, and Khartoum.
• This is why the U.S. must do everything in its power to prevent regimes, like Iran and Iraq, from developing nuclear weapons and to disarm them of their weapons of mass destruction.



(2002) Benjamin Netanyahu Testifies about Iraq to Congress
• And today the United States must destroy the same regime because a nuclear-armed Saddam will place the security of our entire world at risk.
• And make no mistake about it: If and once Saddam has nuclear weapons, the terror network will have nuclear weapons. And once the terror network has nuclear weapons, it is only matter of time before those weapons will did he used.
• Two decades ago, it was possible to thwart Saddam's nuclear ambitions by bombing the single installation. But today, nothing less than dismantling his regime will do because Saddam's nuclear program has fundamentally changed in those two decades. He no longer needs one large reactor to produce the deadly material necessary for atomic bombs. He can produce it in centrifuges the sizes of washing machines that wan be hidden throughout the country.
• And I want to remind you that Iraq is a very big country. It is not the size of Monte Carlo; it is a big country. And I believe that even free and unfettered inspections will not uncover these portable manufacturing sites of mass death.
• So knowing this, I ask all the governments and others who oppose or question the president's plan to look at it from the other end of the logic: Do you believe that action can be taken against Saddam only after he builds nuclear bombs and uses them? And do the various criticism, specially overseas, believe that a clear connection between Saddam and September 11 must be established before we have a right to prevent the next September 11? Well, I think not.

Party Boy: mea.culpa: From your articles:

weak

Israel Urges U.S. to Attack
JERUSALEM -- Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday.


Israel To U.S.: Don't Delay Iraq Attack
Sharon Government Urges Prompt Action Against Saddam


Israel urges U.S. to attack Iraq sooner rather than later

Those are all referencing the same statement, which is fine. I understand your point. However:

Gissin said Israel was not seeking to dictate the timing of a U.S. military campaign but said that, faced with the threat of one, Saddam was fast developing weapons.

At the time Saddam himself said he would use chemical weapons against an invading force. Israel recognizes that if the US is going to invade and invasion is the only option America will accept, giving him more time to carry through on that promise is not the best tactical idea.

I will give you that statement is actually an outright recommendation. If you're working to prove that Israel supported the US, I admitted as much in the Weeners to you. But, you have still failed to prove that Israel was forcing, pressuring, or pushing the US into the war, if that's your objective.

The distinction is important. Look through this thread and see the number of people who have it in their heads that Israel controls US policy instead of simply having interests (whether you believe them to be right or wrong) in common with the political power of the US.

Jerusalem post was full of stuff like

Israel's take on a justified war

Don't wait for Saddam
With all due respect for Scowcroft's concern, Israelis are literally dying while waiting for the US to finally move against Saddam and, as a consequence, destabilize the whole radical axis stretching from Yasser Arafat, to Saddam, through to Iran's mullah- ocracy. Israel, which preemptively struck against Iraq's nuclear program as early as 1981, believes that it is critical to preempt now, and not to wait until Saddam is belatedly discovered to be nuclear armed.


Saddam, al-Qaida intricately linked - expert
There is a definite link between al-Qaida and the regime of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, according to Prof. Amatzia Baram, of the University of Haifa's Department of Middle East History, an expert on Iraqi affairs.

mea.culpa: Israel didn't want a war in Iraq


I think I'm done here

mea.culpa: Quite a bit stronger wording. Israel is not the only nation to make policy recommendations. There are less sensitive issues, to be sure, but to state that other nations should remain silent and do whatever America wants is madness.

I don't recall other nations receiving billions of dollars from us in aid.

Party Boy: I think I'm done here

Don't you want to stick around long enough to be called an anti-semite?