depature

/subby must be from boston
//That, or admins greenlighted yet another misspelled headline

yeah looks like Bush and McCain have decided Obama was right after all. For a guy so inexperienced he was ahead of them on this,on negotiating with Iran and on more troops for Afghanistan and strikes in Pakistan when they had good intel.
so basically his entire foreign policy platform is now theirs.
Not bad for a guy with no experience huh?

but I don't expect the "liberal" media to point this out. More likely they'll say Obama flipped to their side. It's not like reality has a big influence on them.

Hopefully the progess being made will stand and solidify, with The US and Iraqi governments and military officials determining the most effective turnover of control to Iraqi forces.

My favorite part of the general election so far is that thinly veiled GOP mouthpiece "Vets for Freedom." Their commercials blanket the air around here, trying to seem nonpartisan, but always attacking Democrats.

They talk about how well things are going in Iraq, and how that's why we need to stay and "finish the job."

So if things go shiatty in Iraq, we need to stay until they're better. If things get better in Iraq, we need to stay to make sure they stay that way. Either way, we can't possibly bring the troops home! Even if the Iraqi government wants us.

We have to stay, cause that's change we can believe in! "No matter who is president."

3_Butt_Cheeks: Hopefully the progess being made will stand and solidify, with The US and Iraqi governments and military officials determining the most effective turnover of control to Iraqi forces.

There is no progress being made, we are paying what used to be our
enemies to not blow us up and Iraqi civilians along the way. And we
are not only paying them, we are arming them too.

The minute that stops all hell is going to break loose.

The very idea that Iraq is unifying is a joke, nothing has fundamentally
changed, the Sunnis still hate the Shia and everyone hates the Kurds
so why are we looking at this as though we won and everything is fine?

Why it's election time and the GOP wants you to believe that's what's
going on.

Hobodeluxe: yeah looks like Bush and McCain have decided Obama was right after all. For a guy so inexperienced he was ahead of them on this,on negotiating with Iran and on more troops for Afghanistan and strikes in Pakistan when they had good intel.
so basically his entire foreign policy platform is now theirs.
Not bad for a guy with no experience huh?

This, so very this.

I loved how Bush said that the descision of when to withdraw should be made by generals, and that politicians shouldn't interfere.

So much hypocracy!

Random Reality Check: There is no progress being made

More filthy lies, libtard? Everyone knows that 15/18 of the benchmarks have been achieved^*. What more do you want?

Random Reality Check: 3_Butt_Cheeks: Hopefully the progess being made will stand and solidify, with The US and Iraqi governments and military officials determining the most effective turnover of control to Iraqi forces.

There is no progress being made, we are paying what used to be our
enemies to not blow us up and Iraqi civilians along the way. And we
are not only paying them, we are arming them too.

The minute that stops all hell is going to break loose.

The very idea that Iraq is unifying is a joke, nothing has fundamentally
changed, the Sunnis still hate the Shia and everyone hates the Kurds
so why are we looking at this as though we won and everything is fine?

Why it's election time and the GOP wants you to believe that's what's
going on.

Civilian fatalities at their lowest level ever, the police and army better staffed, and key economic indicators such as oil and electricity production slowly but fairly steadily heading upwards.

Electricity is now meeting or exceeding pre-war production, and with the attacks on the infrastructure basically halted, what problems there are now center around updating Iraq's aged infrastructure, rather than rebuilding destroyed equipment. Oil is essentially at prewar levels, and without the attacks on the pipelines and installations, it may actually exceed prewar levels soon.

The largest Shiite militia group has temporarily sworn-off attacking both the U.S. military and Sunni Muslims. Sunni groups are, for the time being, allying themselves with the United States for a fee. And in the north, Kurdish militants are focused on Turkey rather than Iraq.

No progress? I think the only question is the level of progress and how it is interpreted.

3_Butt_Cheeks: No progress? I think the only question is the level of progress and how it is interpreted.

Indeed. If the best you can say is things are the same or barely better than before the invasion, I'd ask too how the hell progress is being interpreted.

akzeac: 3_Butt_Cheeks: No progress? I think the only question is the level of progress and how it is interpreted.

Indeed. If the best you can say is things are the same or barely better than before the invasion, I'd ask too how the hell progress is being interpreted.

Hmmm. Well, the progress is measured from the the beginning of the War, the insurgency, to present day. I supppose you could arbitrarily start anywhere, but that seems a logical point.

akzeac: If the best you can say is things are the same or barely better than before the invasion

South Africa was arguably "better" before apartheid ended.

"That's ridiculous," you say.

Right, the point you just made was ridiculous.

USP .45: South Africa was arguably "better" before apartheid ended.

How much so? And by what indicators?

3_Butt_Cheeks: Hopefully the progess being made will stand and solidify, with The US and Iraqi governments and military officials determining the most effective turnover of control to Iraqi forces.

Right. Barack and Maliki can kick it and be like, lets get the fark out.

Hobodeluxe: yeah looks like Bush and McCain have decided Obama was right after all.

Hahahahaha, no, sorry.

After the troop surge that Obama was against worked like a charm and the situation in Iraq became increasingly more stable the American forces that Democrat Harry Reid claimed had "lost" the war in Iraq are now in the process of being removed after having largely won it. This is not in any way shape or form what the Democrats have been calling for, which is a cut and run policy but is instead the result of VERY good work by our armed forces and General Petraeus.

The Democrat and more to the point Obama version of events called for our troops to leave because things were going to badly that there was no point in staying... Surrender NOW in other words. Thankfully, we didn't listen to people like Reid and Obama and so now our VICTORIOUS troops will be leaving Iraq on terms that are good for the United States... As opposed to the terms Obama and other Democrats wanted to leave on, which were good for our enemies.

Its already been won... and its already been lost.... lets just leave.

randomjsa: Hobodeluxe: yeah looks like Bush and McCain have decided Obama was right after all.

Hahahahaha, no, sorry.

After the troop surge that Obama was against worked like a charm and the situation in Iraq became increasingly more stable the American forces that Democrat Harry Reid claimed had "lost" the war in Iraq are now in the process of being removed after having largely won it.

In winning you mean that Iraq has finally agreed to give certain oil companies no bid contracts. Since, the daily bombings, torture and execution of Iraqis helping Americans and the loss of soldiers lives are still taking place. Even though they aren't show on major media news in America. .

Biological Ali: USP .45: South Africa was arguably "better" before apartheid ended.

How much so? And by what indicators?

for teh white doods.

Biological Ali: Random Reality Check: There is no progress being made

More filthy lies, libtard? Everyone knows that 15/18 of the benchmarks have been achieved*. What more do you want?

_{* only 3 have been actually completed, but we're making 'progress' towards the other 12, honest!}

/Pretty sure that's what the * indicated
//Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong
///Yay! We're starting to sort of make progress towards fixing that thing we totally broke!
\\\And only a few tens of thousands Iraqis dead, too.
\\Wha-hoo, we're liberators!
\Backslashies!

Biological Ali: Random Reality Check: There is no progress being made

More filthy lies, libtard? Everyone knows that 15/18 of the benchmarks have been achieved*. What more do you want?

Why, I want it all.
We libtards are like that.

Biological Ali: USP .45: South Africa was arguably "better" before apartheid ended.

How much so? And by what indicators?

How about fewer violent deaths per day?

Wiki sez "Between 1984 and 1988, over 4,000 people died as a result of political violence [in South Africa]."

There were in excess of 22,000 civilian deaths in Iraq in 2007.

South Africa has a population somewhat under twice that of Iraq.

/Got any more easy ones?

Pride and hate. It's a gang thing.

3_Butt_Cheeks: Civilian fatalities at their lowest level ever, the police and army better staffed, and key economic indicators such as oil and electricity production slowly but fairly steadily heading upwards.

No, the civilian fatalities are the the lowest since our shock and awe, still far higher than when Saddam was in charge.

3_Butt_Cheeks: Electricity is now meeting or exceeding pre-war production, and with the attacks on the infrastructure basically halted, what problems there are now center around updating Iraq's aged infrastructure, rather than rebuilding destroyed equipment.

So, what you're saying is that we have now gotten back to or marginally exceeded where Iraq was before we destroyed a lot of their infrastructure - and we should be cheering this as a milestone?

Are you kidding?

3_Butt_Cheeks: Oil is essentially at prewar levels, and without the attacks on the pipelines and installations, it may actually exceed prewar levels soon.

Awesome - so the truth comes out.

3_Butt_Cheeks: The largest Shiite militia group has temporarily sworn-off attacking both the U.S. military and Sunni Muslims.

And you don't see a real problem hiding with that "temporarily" term? In case you missed it, that is exactly what I was saying.

3_Butt_Cheeks: Sunni groups are, for the time being, allying themselves with the United States for a fee. And in the north, Kurdish militants are focused on Turkey rather than Iraq.

This is an explosion waiting to happen. The Kurds are picking a fight with Turkey? And you don't see a country crushing problem with that?

3_Butt_Cheeks: No progress? I think the only question is the level of progress and how it is interpreted.

No progress - NO REAL PROGRESS.
Stop kidding yourself.
The peace in Iraq if fragile, at its best and anything is likely to rip the country apart.

Well, since there's virtually no chance the people we have been paying large sums of cash to not fight us will buy/have bought more weapons, I'm sure we have plenty of options remaining.

They called an escalation a "surge" and now are calling a timetable a "time horizon". This just goes to show you that winners move the chains - losers move the goalposts.

randomjsa

I refuse to listen to freepers spout about victory in Iraq until they can define what victory is.

Random Reality Check:

Stop kidding yourself.

That's cruel. All he has left are the lies he's swallowed, periodically regurgitated and chewed like some sort of cherished bull shiat cud.

Random Reality Check: 3_Butt_Cheeks: Civilian fatalities at their lowest level ever, the police and army better staffed, and key economic indicators such as oil and electricity production slowly but fairly steadily heading upwards.

No, the civilian fatalities are the the lowest since our shock and awe, still far higher than when Saddam was in charge.

3_Butt_Cheeks: Electricity is now meeting or exceeding pre-war production, and with the attacks on the infrastructure basically halted, what problems there are now center around updating Iraq's aged infrastructure, rather than rebuilding destroyed equipment.

So, what you're saying is that we have now gotten back to or marginally exceeded where Iraq was before we destroyed a lot of their infrastructure - and we should be cheering this as a milestone?

Are you kidding?

3_Butt_Cheeks: Oil is essentially at prewar levels, and without the attacks on the pipelines and installations, it may actually exceed prewar levels soon.

Awesome - so the truth comes out.

3_Butt_Cheeks: The largest Shiite militia group has temporarily sworn-off attacking both the U.S. military and Sunni Muslims.

And you don't see a real problem hiding with that "temporarily" term? In case you missed it, that is exactly what I was saying.

3_Butt_Cheeks: Sunni groups are, for the time being, allying themselves with the United States for a fee. And in the north, Kurdish militants are focused on Turkey rather than Iraq.

This is an explosion waiting to happen. The Kurds are picking a fight with Turkey? And you don't see a country crushing problem with that?

3_Butt_Cheeks: No progress? I think the only question is the level of progress and how it is interpreted.

No progress - NO REAL PROGRESS.
Stop kidding yourself.
The peace in Iraq if fragile, at its best and anything is likely to rip the country apart.

Saying that there has been no progress since the war began is generally untrue.

Stop kidding yourself.

Darth Otter: /Pretty sure that's what the * indicated
//Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

You were indeed correct, sir. Though it's good that you addressed it anyway; that should (in theory) bury the talking point for good (in this thread at least).

/Got any more easy ones?

I suspected as much, however my understanding was that USP .45 was asserting that post-apartheid South Africa was worse off than when apartheid was still in force. I was wondering, therefore, what this argument might be based on.

Darth Otter:

Got any more easy ones?

Yes. Why is a mouse when it spins?

/no fair Googling! ;-)

Random Reality Check: We libtards are like that.

Yes, we are.

USP .45: South Africa was arguably "better" before apartheid ended.

That's why Saint Reagan supported the apartheid government.

SherKhan: Random Reality Check:

Stop kidding yourself.

That's cruel. All he has left are the lies he's swallowed, periodically regurgitated and chewed like some sort of cherished bull shiat cud.

It's Mr. Pork! Welcome back, o champion of pork barrel spending.

Time Horizons?

3_Butt_Cheeks: electricity production slowly but fairly steadily heading upwards.

Yeah, so slowly that most of the country that previously had electricity STILL doesn't have it. It's disgusting. And the fixes to the existing electrical infrastructure are considered dangerously shoddy.

,3_Butt_Cheeks:

It's Mr. Pork! Welcome back, o champion of pork barrel spending.

I'm not sure if what you're doing is taking wrong to higher heights or deeper depths but at least you brought enough to share with the rest of us.

Aside from me advocating government provided super-model girlfriends, prove it.

Finally!

/Get them out. Now.
//Obama won't get them out. Don't pity yourselves. Bush won't. Clinton wouldn't have.
///Kucinich would have. Ron Paul would have. Maybe Gravel. No one else.

"time horizon"... That's rich...

They must of had a team of olympic gymnasts working overtime twisting and spinning to avoid saying, "Yeah we give up, the American people want a time table, the Iraqi people and their government want a time table, and the Bush Administration is far too weak and has absolutely no credibility left to force it's will on anybody..."

3_Butt_Cheeks: It's Mr. Pork! Welcome back, o champion of pork barrel spending.

If Sherkhan has made any policy statements that don't involve bouncy-bouncy or fried foods, I'll run for mayor of SF as a republican on a "I'm stupider than my opponent" platform.

Come on, 3_Butt_Cheeks, gimme one instance of me supporting pork barrel spending.

While you're once again looking for a corner in a round room, consider this: This libtard is more more conservative than you. But that's not really surprising (or difficult) as you are not a Conservative. Nope, far far from it. You're a Republican, a beast whose loyalties lay not with a philosophy but with a metastasized apparatus.

SherKhan: Darth Otter:

Got any more easy ones?

Yes. Why is a mouse when it spins?

/no fair Googling! ;-)

Umm... er... argh! I said EASY ones!

/Tricksy hobbitses
// hm - be tortured about it or google it... hm.

Well, I guess since the civil war ethno-sectarian violence aggression has died down, it would make sense to look at withdrawl plans time tables horizons.

/if we can't leave because we think the enemy will take over again, doesn't that mean we really haven't made ANY progress?
//and if they tell us to GTFO, and they are a sovereign, democratically elected country, wouldn't we have to get out regardless of "the greater good?"

the great thing about the phrase "time horizon" is the word horizon. what is a horizon? a horizon is something off in the distance that, no matter how long you walk toward it, you will never reach.

how appropriate.

"Time Horizon"?

That's the greatest spin I may have ever heard.

Has anyone here ever reached the horizon?

For me, the horizon seems to remain the same distance away in all directions, no matter how hard or how long I run.

What a perfect metaphor for this situation.

wow, they're not even trying to make sensible semantics now...

burndtdan: the great thing about the phrase "time horizon" is the word horizon. what is a horizon? a horizon is something off in the distance that, no matter how long you walk toward it, you will never reach.

how appropriate.

Heh, nice catch.

Zeno's strategy.

burndtdan: what is a horizon?

I'm going to write an early '80s soft rock classic using your question.

*Ahem*

What is a Horizon? (Loggins, Messina, defenestrator)

What is a horizon? (Dun dun!)
Tell me what love is
Over the horizon (dun dun!)
Could there be something sweeter than this?

You know your game, girl,
You know mine better than I do
It's not the same, girl
And this time I got to break on through

Many miles
Farkin', dead shiat by the side of the road
For the horizon, (for the horizon!)
Is where I'm gonna blow my load

So look out! (chorus)

A night-time soldier of the heart
Creeping on your patio
I chloroformed your Schnauzer
So heeeee couldn't let you know

That I'm in your house!
Fixing sandwiches from your fridge,
The POWER OF LOVE!
Do ya love what love is?

It's on the horizon! (on the horizon)
What is a horizon.
On the horizon!
Well what is a horizon.
On the horizon,
What is a horizon...

The U.S. government is being extorted and bled Dry in Iraq. The U.S. people are being lied to and manipulated back home(not to mention being told to foot the bill). Time to bring the troops home shamed in defeat, or they could lash out and commit another Genocide in Iran. decisions...decisions...

This "war" was over before it started.

The time horizon is a magical watch that peers into the future and tells Bush that we will still have troops in Iraq.

/part of my better headline
//maybe not better