It's not apartheid when G_d's Chosen do it.

The issue with Palestine is a mess. Sadly things done in the past just set up what's going on now.

HowlingFrog:It's not apartheid when G_d's Chosen do it.

Pretty much. If it was any country but Israel oppressing the Palestinians, we'd never hear the end of it. But apparantly Israel can do no wrong.

This thread should be fun.

My .02
Jewish women are hot, dated one.
Never dated a Palestinian, her brothers always threatened my life before I could take her out.

/Just kiddin
//Not so much though :(

Would people be so peeved about the Israeli/Palestinian thing if instead of Israelis doing the bad stuff it was other Arabs? Like in Zimbabwe before Mugabe farked that country to hell, if the land owners/farmers before the so-called land reform were black instead of white, would they have been so pissy about the situation? It just seems that people aren't pissed off about there being extreme haves and have-nots as long as the haves look and act like the have-nots.

It seems like in these situations they want to simply replace one group of haves with a different group of haves while the have-nots end up gaining nothing in the end, that bigotry be it racial or religious is just a very easy excuse or motivating factor to try to bring about that change.

I'm no authority on Israeli/Palestinian affairs, but these factions are in a perpetual state of conflict, militarily and ideologically. Israel is in the dominant postion and it shows. I suspect if the palestinians had regional superiority, the roles would be sufficiently reversed.

Korag_The_Nasty:In all fairness, Nelson Mandella wasn't launching rockets into white settlements.

launching rockets from a prison cell presents enormous difficulties.

Korag_The_Nasty:Nelson Mandella wasn't launching rockets into white settlements.

Yeah but there were plenty of blacks in South Africa who were launching rocks at the cops and such. Nevermind in Palestine you have Jews, who have been in the area for centuries, who are forced to live in the West Bank, simply because they're Palestinians. To say nothing of the even larger number of Palestinian Christians.

Korag_The_Nasty:In all fairness, Nelson Mandella wasn't launching rockets into white settlements.

Came here to say this.

90% of the problems the Palestinians face would be gone if their leaders would simply recognize the right for Israel to exist. Instead, they continually call for the destruction of Israel. Kind of hard to mend that sort of relationship, doncha think?

Why is this epic thread going on at 3 AM?

klymen:Why is this epic thread going on at 3 AM?

Not enough ad clicks this time of night?

/this thread will probably be 500+ comments by the time I wake up tomorrow.

Are the Jews really that hard to live with? Everywhere they go, it seems like someone's trying to kill them.

klymen:Why is this epic thread going on at 3 AM?

A solemn tribute to the candidacy of Hillary Clinton?

IndyGemini:Korag_The_Nasty:In all fairness, Nelson Mandella wasn't launching rockets into white settlements.

Came here to say this.

90% of the problems the Palestinians face would be gone if their leaders would simply recognize the right for Israel to exist. Instead, they continually call for the destruction of Israel. Kind of hard to mend that sort of relationship, doncha think?

What about the Israelis ending their brutal occupation of land outside their recognized borders and allowing the Palestinians to create a viable state?

If that doesn't work for them, how about we erase the border and create a bi-national state?

You will find that Zionist proponents find neither option acceptable because the goal is to ethnically cleanse Israel, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank of Arab inhabitants. Some are shy about admitting this, many are not. I've been to more than a few shuls in my day and more than a few Seders with Orthodox folks who don't mind at all sharing their thoughts on this topic.

And to think, all the Anti-apartheid folks had to do was stop murdering people in order to get their own state! Oh wait...

EberhardKarl:What about the Israelis ending their brutal occupation of land outside their recognized borders and allowing the Palestinians to create a viable state?

Hey, how come they are outside of their "recognized borders?" Oh right, that's cause when they stayed within the borders, they got invaded by the Arabs. So you're saying the Arabs should get a do-over even though they won't stop murdering Israelis first.

EberhardKarl:If that doesn't work for them, how about we erase the border and create a bi-national state?

Ooo! Great idea.... if you're a Palestinian who is frustrated that he can't murder Jews because there's a fence in the way.

EberhardKarl:You will find that Zionist proponents find neither option acceptable because the goal is to ethnically cleanse Israel, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank of Arab inhabitants

Funny. The only side I remember stating that they want to ethnically cleanse Israel is, uh, Nigerians. No wait, it's Ukrainians. Oh bother, who are they again?

I am sure this will be a perfectly reasonable debate with due consideration and courtesy given to all parties involved.

I still hope that neither group has the right God, and that mine is the true one. Every night I pray that the entire region will suffer an earthquake and the whole place will fall into the ocean. Then I will travel to the closest area where land still exists and yell "that was sure worth all the fighting, eh assholes?" down into the sea. Nothing yet, but maybe if I pray a little harder.

InternetLOL:I am sure this will be a perfectly reasonable debate with due consideration and courtesy given to all parties involved.

:) hahahaha! I'm suuuuure it will be.

Benjamin the Rogue:Are the Jews really that hard to live with? Everywhere they go, it seems like someone's trying to kill them.

About 5% of the Palestinian population is Jewish. And they're not having problems except with Israel. Go figure.

For fark's sake, people! I just got in and wanted to check fark for a moment before lapsing into drunken sleep. Do the trolls never go to bed?

jvl:they got invaded by the Arabs.

Palestianians aren't Arabs. Indeed the general historical relationship between Arabs and Palestinians isn't good.

They don't get treated any better when in any of the other countries containing Palestinians and Palestinian land.
Let's try to be fair about it.

1947 Arabs take on Jews, fail
1967 Israel takes on the Arabs on Israeli terms, wins
1973 Arabs take on Israel on Arab terms, Israel wins
73+ Arabs get smart fight via proxy, pay the palis to blow themselves up, but instead of Israel attacking the funders (the same people whose ass they kicked in 67/73) they hit the proxies. Also the Arabs got smart again, If they fight as Arabs they look bad, so make up a smaller group that can make the Jews look like the big bad wolf. Next step get a bunch of ignorant college macbook my coffee house is unique asshats to by your alternate history.

Its like the people that think the Spanish conquistadors were worse then the Aztec. The Aztec had been in power 100 years really before the Spanish got these. They were just as bad if not worse to their captured then the Spanish, but since they lost to the white man they must have been saints (Note: Israel less then 50% European so not all "white man")

In reality in 1850 the pop of the Palestine area was 350,000, I'll admit mostly Arab. Then the population shot up over 100% in 50 years. Between 1850-1947 a large number (at least 100,000) Arabs moved to the region due to the economic growth provided by the Jewish influx. So a large number of the Arabs who left in 49 were less then 3 generations deep in that area, thus not this shiat about their great-great-great grandpas house

So not really like South Africa at all, if the Blacks had moved to South Africa to benefit from the Whites then tried to kill them, failed and then been put into lower status we might have a some what similar case. Apartheid however is no where close to what exist in Israel, and if Israel is "Apartheid" then Syria and Jordan are a holocaust to the Palestine's. They treat them so much worse then Israel but its ok we think of them as not White, and thus not able to be evil just cultural.

zedster:I'll admit mostly Arab

I'll say this one more time, Palestinians aren't Arabs. Also Jews have lived in Palestinian territory all along, not just Palestinian Jews, but non-Palestinian Jews ie the descendants of the Jews in the Bible. Plus others who moved there over the last two millenia.

WhyteRaven74: About 5% of the Palestinian population is Jewish. And they're not having problems except with Israel. Go figure.

Hmm... according to Wikipedia, it's only 0.6% Jewish in Gaza, and 17% in the more laid-back West Bank.

And in the interest of fairness, it should be pointed out that Israel's population is about 20% Arab.

WhyteRaven74:zedster:I'll admit mostly Arab

I'll say this one more time, Palestinians aren't Arabs. Also Jews have lived in Palestinian territory all along, not just Palestinian Jews, but non-Palestinian Jews ie the descendants of the Jews in the Bible. Plus others who moved there over the last two millenia.

true, my point was in all fairness at most 50,000 Jews/ 350,000 total pop but still the number of Arab went up dramatically after Jews came with new economic endeavors and medicine

zedster:1973 Arabs take on Israel on Arab terms, Israel wins

To be a (sleepy, need to turn in...) pedant, one should not discount the role played by the US and the Soviet Union for that particular conflict. Neither power particularly wanted the war, but both provided substantial airlifts of supplies. It's also quite arguable that the Egyptians won in that they achieved their objective of puncturing Israeli complacency from the '67 war, to the point that the Camp David Accords became possible. Egypt probably also gained by keeping diplomatic channels open with the US throughout the crisis.

The objective of war is not always annihilation of the enemy.

Now, granted, the Assads didn't gain that much...

WhyteRaven74:Palestianians aren't Arabs. Indeed the general historical relationship between Arabs and Palestinians isn't good.

That's fascinating. Especially since a palestinian nation/people never existed and most of todays 'palestinians' are descendants of families who immigrated to the area at the beginning of the 20th century.

I can hear your vagina crying, zedster kthx

/approves

IndyGemini:Came here to say this.

90% of the problems the Palestinians face would be gone if their leaders would simply recognize the right for Israel to exist. Instead, they continually call for the destruction of Israel. Kind of hard to mend that sort of relationship, doncha think?

Erm...the really pissed off Palestinians are probably not so concerned with the historic/legal right of Israel to exist as they are with Israel's self-given right (up to 2005) to exact punitive demolitions of Palestinian homes WITHOUT a trial.

Plus, the whole violation of Geneva Conventions thing that Israel does when it builds settlements in the disputed territories.

That'd piss anyone off, religious or not. Stop being an idiot and reducing it to a Palestinian denial of Israel's right to exist. Obviously, if someone destroys your home, you're probably going to have enough to upset you without having to think about Israel's legal and historical right to the lands of Canaan. You'll probably be thinking about the present day question of whether or not they have the right to destroy your home as part of a punishment without even having a trial.

Illegal and immoral destruction of homes as a punitive punishment for crimes that don't even need to be proven in a trial? That's a good reason to get angry, right? Sure, they stopped doing it in 2005 (apparently it was found to CAUSE suicide bombings and violence as opposed to deterring it)...but, you've got to imagine that people wouldn't have forgotten losing their homes in the span of 3 years. Punitive demolitions without trial have been a matter of Israeli policy since 1967. That would piss off even the most mild mannered individual, whether secular, fanatical, atheist, white, brown, yellow, black, or whatever. People losing homes as a punishment without trial for 38 years. Thousands of homes destroyed and the occupants denied the right to a trial in order to defend themselves and their homes. Think about it.

IndyGemini:90% of the problems the Palestinians face would be gone if their leaders would simply recognize the right for Israel to exist. Instead, they continually call for the destruction of Israel. Kind of hard to mend that sort of relationship, doncha think?

And what about Palestine's *right* to exist? Thsoe fsckers in Israel don't recognize it. Why should we recognize theirs, then? Also, does the US recognize Bhutan's right to exist? Or Luxembourg's? No, it doesn't, because the "right to exist" has no meaning in international law. It's been made up just for Israel.

If anything, the only thing close to it would be UN resolutions. But if Israel's "right to exist" derives from UNSC resolutions, then Palestine has a "right to exist" as well, and how come Israel keeps on ignoring all the other resolutions? Therefore, Israel doesn't recognize its own "right to exist", so why should others do?

suggestive_eye_movement:I can hear your vagina crying, zedster kthx

4 chan is that way ------->

can we start giving IQ test to get on Fark?

nictamer:IndyGemini:90% of the problems the Palestinians face would be gone if their leaders would simply recognize the right for Israel to exist. Instead, they continually call for the destruction of Israel. Kind of hard to mend that sort of relationship, doncha think?

And what about Palestine's *right* to exist? Thsoe fsckers in Israel don't recognize it. Why should we recognize theirs, then? Also, does the US recognize Bhutan's right to exist? Or Luxembourg's? No, it doesn't, because the "right to exist" has no meaning in international law. It's been made up just for Israel.

If anything, the only thing close to it would be UN resolutions. But if Israel's "right to exist" derives from UNSC resolutions, then Palestine has a "right to exist" as well, and how come Israel keeps on ignoring all the other resolutions? Therefore, Israel doesn't recognize its own "right to exist", so why should others do?


The UN is a democratic forum for non-democratic nations to exercise their will on democratic ones.

Benjamin the Rogue:Are the Jews really that hard to live with? Everywhere they go, it seems like someone's trying to kill them.

Historically, I don't think it's been their fault much.

c7hu1hu fh746n:Benjamin the Rogue:Are the Jews really that hard to live with? Everywhere they go, it seems like someone's trying to kill them.

Historically, I don't think it's been their fault much.

Its for the same reason the US has issues with the Mexican population to an extent (remove the "They took our jooobbs part") its that no one seems to like any group that doesn't melt into the majority of society in under 4 generations. Us Jews refused to give up on having our own languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Yiddish, Ladino) and culture which made us easy scapegoats as the outsiders in nations that are historically overly nationalistic (Russia is the perfect example of this).

The freest Arabs, Christians, Jews and Muslims in Mideast are Israelis. Israel still has a long, long way to go. Have they ever made a formal apology for al-nakba? Anyway, the Israelis aren't really being met half-way which just gives the far-right a leg stand on, but in terms of the shiatty region they are in, they are a beacon.

By the way, I'd say I'm a fairly staunch anti-Zionist, but have noticed that when muslims are brutal to other muslims, and this is a common phenomenon, it gets nowhere near the mention that it does when Israelis happen to be brutal.

How long have the Kurds been kicked around and remained stateless?

When gays in Palestine are forced to flee persecution, what Middle Eastern country do they usually flee to ?

Suicidal Writer:The freest Arabs, Christians, Jews and Muslims in Mideast are Israelis. Israel still has a long, long way to go. Have they ever made a formal apology for al-nakba? Anyway, the Israelis aren't really being met half-way which just gives the far-right a leg stand on, but in terms of the shiatty region they are in, they are a beacon.

By the way, I'd say I'm a fairly staunch anti-Zionist, but have noticed that when muslims are brutal to other muslims, and this is a common phenomenon, it gets nowhere near the mention that it does when Israelis happen to be brutal.

How long have the Kurds been kicked around and remained stateless?

When gays in Palestine are forced to flee persecution, what Middle Eastern country do they usually flee to ?

and hey the Israeli and Kurds are good allies, wonder why?

word is the Israelis have/had an airbase in Kurdish Iraq for a strike on Iran

zedster
That makes sense. Humans by nature seem incapable of ignoring things that stand out. Being a non-christian in a flyover state has made this abundantly clear to me.

c7hu1hu fh746n:zedster
That makes sense. Humans by nature seem incapable of ignoring things that stand out. Being a non-christian in a flyover state has made this abundantly clear to me.


"The nail that sticks out gets hammered down"
I heard it attributed to Mao but google-fu says its a Japanese saying, either way still very true

Korag_The_Nasty:In all fairness, Nelson Mandella wasn't launching rockets into white settlements.

More or less what I wanted to say, but more direct. Unfortunately the UN's first job was to divide up the Israeli and Palestinian states, but that was in an era when legal separation of groups was the norm. That never did work out too well in the long run for any society.

rippinthegears:farm4.static.flickr.com

That makes my surprisingly angry. Why would anyone point a rifle at a 3-year-old? What excuse is there?

/silly goy probably doesn't understand

hillbillypharmacist:That makes my surprisingly angry. Why would anyone point a rifle at a 3-year-old? What excuse is there?

A child can kill you. In fact, in the long run it may be more dangerous to exempt children from searches because terrorist tactics often adapt to loopholes. If children are searched, especially young ones, it means it may end up saving them from being used.


Children are heavily involved in this ridiculous conflict.

hillbillypharmacist:That makes my surprisingly angry. Why would anyone point a rifle at a 3-year-old? What excuse is there?

There's really no way of telling from the photo whether it's actually pointed at the kid, or just near him. There might be something immediately off the photo he's pointing it at, or it might just be held at the ready without pointing at anything in particular.

Plus, no finger on the trigger.

(1921 NY Times)
PALESTINE IS STILL A LAND OF PROBLEMS; Moslems and Christians Bitterly Opposed to Colonization by Zionist Immigrants. ALL SIDES GIVE THEIR VIEWS

ZIONIST MOVEMENT AIMED AT.; Explanation by Turkey of Restrictions Upon Travelers in Palestine.
December 31, 1898,

PALESTINE CLOSED TO JEWS.; Authorities There Ordered to Prevent Landing of Immigrants.
September 10, 1898

Earlier

Old argument is old

ceejayoz:hillbillypharmacist:That makes my surprisingly angry. Why would anyone point a rifle at a 3-year-old? What excuse is there?

There's really no way of telling from the photo whether it's actually pointed at the kid, or just near him. There might be something immediately off the photo he's pointing it at, or it might just be held at the ready without pointing at anything in particular.

Plus, no finger on the trigger.

Its being held at the ready.

ceejayoz:hillbillypharmacist:That makes my surprisingly angry. Why would anyone point a rifle at a 3-year-old? What excuse is there?

There's really no way of telling from the photo whether it's actually pointed at the kid, or just near him. There might be something immediately off the photo he's pointing it at, or it might just be held at the ready without pointing at anything in particular.

Plus, no finger on the trigger.

He doesn't appear to be aiming at anything - the rifle is held against his chest, not up to his shoulder. And his finger isn't even on the trigger guard.