"I warned you stupid motherfarkers."




"You're seriously going to be that retarded? Again?"

You know what we should do?

Lets intervene more in the Mid East. It works so well for us.

NewportBarGuy:"You're seriously going to be that retarded? Again?"

No one listens to Scheuer in much the same way that those who were most right on Iraq got demoted/the axe, while those who were wrong got promoted.

I wonder if subby is referring to the myth of Osama bin Laden working with/for the CIA or he's referring to the actual Afghan warlords that worked with the CIA.

The GOP have created every modern American enemy.

Just another republican blunder.

Hurrah!!!


4 more years of Bush! Vote for McSame!

Don't worry, we'll just supply weapons to the OTHER warlords who hate the warlords who hate us!

that's because this administration thinks winning is paying extortion money. Just like they are doing with the Sunnis in Anbar province.

Who would of thunk something like that would've happened. I wonder if a situation similar to this has ever happened before? (rhetorically)

The "Northern Alliance" are the main growers of opium.
The spin is on to say it's the Taliban...it's not
In 2001 the US gave the Taliban government $136 million, their largest source of foreign aid, for reducing opium production from 95% of world production to less than 5%.
The Afghan warlords (aka Northern Alliance) has returned opium production to over 93% of world production.



Can we hear an Amen from the Mission Accomplished crowd?

Maybe this is a goofy thing to suggest, but I thought that in Afghanistan the way to fix that country would be to not try to fix all of it at once but pick a very small part and really make that part nice and safe on the condition those living there accept Western values and the rule of law. If in Afghanistan those parts which agree to go our way start looking like really nice places in comparison to the rest of that country, then you can make the same pitch to the other parts. I think that if people there can see a success from allying themselves with us they'll have reason to get with our program. They have to see what is possible, not just hear promises. They have to see that others have it much better by working with us and in real terms. Trying to do too much and not succeeding everywhere is a sure-fire way to fail everywhere.

Satyagraha:The "Northern Alliance" are the main growers of opium.
The spin is on to say it's the Taliban...it's not
In 2001 the US gave the Taliban government $136 million,


Debunked back in 2001, rather quickly after Mr. Scheer started spreading that lie.

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20011008.html

randomjsa:I wonder if subby is referring to the myth of Osama bin Laden working with/for the CIA or he's referring to the actual Afghan warlords that worked with the CIA.

Well, the article does mention that particular asshole named Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who was a major beneficiary of CIA assistance via ISI (and a major-league asshole of a warlord back then, too... and in the time intervening).

Befuddled:Maybe this is a goofy thing to suggest, but I thought that in Afghanistan the way to fix that country would be to not try to fix all of it at once but pick a very small part and really make that part nice and safe on the condition those living there accept Western values and the rule of law.

Forcing Western values? I suspect that would result in more than a little hostility and suspicion, and not just in Afghanistan.

FWIW, we're probably stuck with the assorted bloody-handed warlords and warlords-turned-ministers-with-armed-fan-clubs -- seeing as how we coordinated with 'em, didn't exactly establish a precedent of being finicky over past abuses (Dostum has a pretty poor reputation, for instance), and attempted to integrate them into the government. Turn on any that haven't first turned rogue, and the rest would have ample grounds for wondering when their turn would come. Any peaceful outcome that isn't based on something like "step out of line and get personally vaporized by AC-130s" will require entangling their self-interests with the rest, to help prevent another civil war post-Soviet-withdrawal-style. Attaining some form of prosperity would be a prereq.

/should be sleeping

randomjsa: I wonder if subby is referring to the myth of Osama bin Laden working with/for the CIA or he's referring to the actual Afghan warlords that worked with the CIA.

Well, given that bin Laden isn't (wasn't?) an "Afghan warlord", I'd have to say it's probably the latter.

1. Legalize opium in Afghanistan
2. ???
3. Profit

Unsurprisingly, it was a Democrat who got us involved in Afghanistan, eventually birthing the contemporary radical Islamist movement.

Zbigniew Brzezinski: How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen

A quick overview to what is going on, without the spin.

Afghanistan has never been a united country. It has never had a centralized government, it has always been a confederation of tribes. The CIA understood this, and had gone and made deals with each individual province, and had just about all but run the Taliban out of Afghanistan (our paid allied tribes told the USAF bombers where to strike, they recruited native soldiers who were disgusted with the excesses of the Taliban, who were attempting to take Afghanistan back to the 14th century). The CIA and State departments played the situation with great finesse, and the neocon American government took the credit for it.

Enter Cheney. The neocons want to build a pipeline which will connect the landlocked, oil rich former Russian alphabet states with the western world. It is a noble and worthwhile goal, one with great promise. He sets up his personal buddy Karzai (a former oil executive with Unocal-now Chevron) as king of Afghanistan, and Karzai grants Halliburton sole rights to build this pipeline. Then they attack Iraq, and forget all about Afghanistan, treating it as an "empty space" a strategic location that will reap future rewards.

But like everything else that the neocons, with their reverse midas touch attempt, it turns to shiat. Karzai immediately sets up little brother as drug czar, and they use US resources to eradicate the little farmers, so that only the central government now controls the opium crop. So the main cash crop is gone. Then Karzai makes his own alliances, under the auspices of a "democratic" government
(which is all new to the Afghani's) and gains control of it, setting up members of his tribe as lords over previously autonomous lands. They proceed to do the exact same thing as what's going on in Iraq, playing the Americans for all they can get, building themselves palaces, paying themselves royally, and none of the money goes to either the infrastructure or the people, whom are soon starving.

At the same time, the USA and the UN are involved in massive public works projects, pouring billions into them. But as in Iraq, both the USA and the UN are handing out these contracts to politically leveraged companies only, which means 1) the price of the projects are inflated for graft and corruption (less projects)
and 2) the individual companies are bringing in their own people to inflate costs and leaving the Afghanis out, a big mistake in an iconoclastic state like Afghanistan, who hate all outsiders.

Remember that Afghanistan has always been a confederation of tribes, and that they will make the best deal that they can get for their own particular area. Enter the Taliban, allowed to reorganize, recruit and given a safe haven in Pakistan by another one of Cheney's buddies, Musharraf. Remember that Cheney has taken the State department completely out of the mix in Pakistan, and is running that foreign policy out of his office. The USA is paying 10 billion dollars a year to prop up Musharraf, who refuses to go after the Muslim extremists. So now Muslim extremists are attacking with impunity into border areas, running to Pakistan whenever the UN and US forces attempt to destroy them.

The Taliban meets with these tribes that are being starved while those allied to Karzai act like American congressmen on a junket. These tribes don't know from democracy, they historically have
made deals with whomever treats them better. That they would prefer to deal with people whom want to take them back to the 14th century speaks volumes about how badly they are being treated by the democratic government of Karzai. In some instances, they are literally being starved while the Karzai governmental lords build expensive monuments to themselves.

It is madness, and it will not change unless the entire system changes. The first step is to get Cheney and the rest of the American neocon asshats out of the mix, and get some qualified help reviewing the situation. It was only 7 short years ago that
Afghanistan was on the verge of becoming a western ally, now once again it is endanger of going to Muslim extremists. But there is light at the end of the tunnel in Afghanistan----the central figure responsible for the return of the Taliban into Afghanistan, American vice-president Dick Cheney, will be out of power in about
six months.

Look -- if you want to get us out of Afganistan and have Bin Laden found, you simply contract the mission to the Indian army. They would probably do it cheaper, they would do it without all our bullshiat restrictions, and they would cream for the chance to surround Pakistan on the east and the west. Pakistan would "find" Bin Laden overnight. Then they'd either get in check or the Indians could just bomb the balls out of them.

/"Indian" = dot, not feather

The correct response is:

a) Payers only love you when they're paying;
b) Damn! Miss a few payments and they repossess the whole country!
c) Who is making futile attempts to "nation build" now, Mr. Smarty-Pants Republican Policeman of the World?
d) Hey! Alexander the Great had trouble getting through to these guys, too!
e) All of the above.

This is why it is pointless to try and set up democracies in these ME countries -- the people don't want it.

They want to be fed and want their tribe to dominate the other area tribes. That's about it.

Western values? Where are those in the Quran?

We never should have sent troops in. Just bombed the Taliban from high altitude and let the other groups/tribes do the dirty work. And if/when the next that new group starts getting uppity in a few years, do the same thing to them.


/justice served with minimal costs and no American lives lost

We should at least celebrate the fact that in Iraq, we're only paying the most trustworthy of fellows millions of dolllars to fight each other, instead of us. Like these nice young gentlemen:

Suicidal Writer:Unsurprisingly, it was a Democrat who got us involved in Afghanistan, eventually birthing the contemporary radical Islamist movement.

Zbigniew Brzezinski: How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen

and unfortunately it was Republicans who fell for it when it was done to them by bin Laden, The same provocation into what he hoped would prod them into an expensive slough that would raise the price of oil and bankrupt us.

Suicidal Writer:Unsurprisingly, it was a Democrat who got us involved in Afghanistan, eventually birthing the contemporary radical Islamist movement.

Shhh-- you're supposed to pretend that you're non-partisan, remember, little troll?

nashBridges:"He was the most radical of the radicals," recalls former Rep. Charlie Wilson, immortalized in the recent film Charlie Wilson's War for his role in directing U.S. military aid to anti-Soviet Afghan warlords. "He didn't hate us as much as he hated the Soviets," he adds, "but he sure didn't like us much."

U.S. officials had an even higher opinion of Haqqani, who was considered the most effective rebel warlord. "I adored Haqqani. When I was in Afghanistan, Haqqani was the guy who made sure I would get out," says Wilson. "He was a marvelous leader and very beloved in his territory."

I have never understood, even for as nice a guy as he is, how Charlie Wilson managed to crawl out of what became a future debacle unscathed. He was idealistic in his goals, ignorant in execution, blind in realizing the consequences, and ultimately held to no account for his role in the destruction of Afghanistan. He can hide behind "I wanted to give them a mini Marshall Plan" all he wants, but he worked harder to get the initial money for weapons. He worked even harder to get more money once the CIA started asking for it.

What does he get rewarded with? A farking movie that makes him out to be someone successfully preventing genocide by the USSR.

WTF?

Gee, you think Hollywood's assertions aside maybe it's a Bad idea to let a wealthy ideologue, a single member of the US House of Representatives and a borderline alcoholic rogue CIA agent dictate US foreign policy?

who'da thunk it?

The truth is, the whole Mujahadien think might not have been such a disaster if after the war State and CIA hadn't got into a pissing match over which guy they should back to re-unify the country. State wanted a well regarded former diplomat named Professor Burhannudin Rabbani, who actually was the official ruler of Afghanistan after the Soviets left. CIA backed their guy (and Pakistani Intelligence's guy) Hekmatyar, a Mujahadien leader noted for his ferocity but also his brutality. They kept secretly supporting him long after the State Dept had recognized Rabanni as the legitimate head fo the gov't.

Eventually Hekmatyar went into open warfare against Rabanni's government and Rabanni actually invited the Taliban in to the country to serve as a counter force against Hekmatyar's milita. The rest is more or less history, with one last footnote:

Who is currently the greatest military threat to the Karzai government and the main source of weapons and fighters for the Taliban?

yep. Hekmatyar

"Afghan warlords, formerly on the payroll of the CIA, are enemies once again. Now why does THAT sound familiar?"

Today's ally could be tomorrow's enemy and vice versa:

Consider for example we now have US forces in Vietnam training and advising the Vietnamese Armed Forces. Hanoi has also looked at buying US naval equipment to counter the growing threat from China (they fought a short war in 1979 and have ongoign territorial disputes). There was even talk about the US Navy returning to Cam Rahn Bay.

And who could forget this happy alliance and how it ened up biting us in the rear?

Korovyov:Satyagraha:The "Northern Alliance" are the main growers of opium.
The spin is on to say it's the Taliban...it's not
In 2001 the US gave the Taliban government $136 million,


Debunked back in 2001, rather quickly after Mr. Scheer started spreading that lie.

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20011008.html

Debunked? NOT!

"The United States has been the single largest donor of humanitarian aid for Afghans for the past several years. In 2000, the United States contributed a total of $113 million in humanitarian aid to Afghans, both inside Afghanistan and in refugee camps in neighboring countries. In 2001, the aid level has already exceeded $184, accounting for some 300,000 tons of American food sent to Afghanistan this year." US State Deparment October 15,2001



Oh and BTW, linking to something that offers no proof and links that don't work doesn't prove your point...it just proves you don't read what you post.

Here are some active sites with live links...maybe read a little
From the right...
Link (WorldNet Daily)


Link (Cato)

From the center...
Link (Independent Online)

From the Left (and not the author that supposedly was debunked by your "source"

Link (Bowling for Columbine)