I see the Pentagon sockpuppets are back in action.

Sounds like it could get messy.

Why is he studying a map of Hawaii?

16 months..just another pie in the sky campaign promise. As a vet, I just don't see how it's possible logistically. It's gonna be a big old mess.

NikolaiFarkoff:Why is he studying a map of Hawaii?

I lol'd.

I've wondered how the logistics of a 16-month withdrawal will work. It will be interesting to see what Obama's take is after he's been to Iraq and talks to the commanders in the field.

A good friend of mine always had the same policy playing pool as he did with birth control...

Bang 'em and pray.

nice one subby

Nabb1:I've wondered how the logistics of a 16-month withdrawal will work. It will be interesting to see what Obama's take is after he's been to Iraq and talks to the commanders in the field.

No doubt. Some of his supporters' heads will assplode if he comes back saying we need to stay and not have a artificial time-table. Should be interesting, especially in light of al-Maliki's demand for such a thing in the security agreement between the two countries.

Their comments are exactly the sort of thing I'd expect to hear most military officers say. Their job right now is to fight a war. Of course they want to be successful, to "win", whatever that means in Iraq. Is it any surprise when career soldiers want to stay in the field longer than civilian leaders will allow?

We have civilian oversight for a reason.

And yes, I realize there are logistical issues with Obama's plan that will have to be addressed.

iraq is farked either way. thanks to the invasion, it is a failed state. the question is, do we want it to be farked with our without us.

the problem is, the only thing that can hold a manufactured country like iraq together - one that encompasses three historically antithetical ethnic/religious groups - is either a dictatorial strongman or an occupying colonial power. we removed the former, replacing him with the latter.

we need to get out and let iraq fall apart. it's the natural way of things.

FlashHarry:we need to get out and let iraq fall apart. it's the natural way of things.

Because fark 'em, they are just brown people!

Nabb1:I've wondered how the logistics of a 16-month withdrawal will work. It will be interesting to see what Obama's take is after he's been to Iraq and talks to the commanders in the field.

Doesn't farking matter what the commanders say. The Iraqis want us out. So we respect their sovereignty and leave. If we stay we effectively become a colonial occupying force, and we don't do that in my America.

KaponoFor3:FlashHarry:we need to get out and let iraq fall apart. it's the natural way of things.

Because fark 'em, they are just brown people!

well, our staying won't help them. they're farked either way, thanks to us. iraq has become our own personal soviet afghanistan.

FlashHarry:well, our staying won't help them.

Actually, if we pull out, we can expect a Saudi-Iranian proxy war which wouldn't necessarily be bad for America but would be horrible for the Iraqi people. Pulling out prematurely, while a viable birth control strategy, would doom the Iraqi people to even further death and destruction.

With the US still there, they have HOPE, something that Obama supporters should both recognize and appreciate.

Staying in and praying doesn't work either

KaponoFor3
Because fark 'em, they are just brown people!

I think that was the attitude when we started bombing them.

patrick767:I think that was the attitude when we started bombing them.

Let's assume that this common charge by the Left against the Bush administration is true -- that they just said "you know what? fark em, they're brown, who cares".

Then shouldn't the Obama administration, which will likely be the one handling this issue after November, be representing the exact opposite? Pulling out without regard for whats happening on the ground is saying the EXACT SAME THING -- "you know what? fark em, they're brown, who cares"

FlashHarry:the problem is, the only thing that can hold a manufactured country like iraq together - one that encompasses three historically antithetical ethnic/religious groups - is either a dictatorial strongman or an occupying colonial power.

This is why we can't pull out. If we do, there will be genocide.

Q: Why can't we immediately withdraw from Iraq?

A: IT'S TOO HARD!

It's just easier to keep pumping billions of dollars into an effort that has never worked properly and is the world's greatest recruitment tool for terrorists.

Notice how the division commander is the one having doubts, while the ops commander in iraq is a lot more optimistic. The situation is not the same everywhere, so the pullout will not be applied equally across all areas. Chill.

PurplePimpSaber:Doesn't farking matter what the commanders say.

I think Sun Tzu warned against ignoring field commanders say. And it's not simply a matter of whether or not forces are withdrawn, but how it's done. Do you think a 16-month, timetable withdrawal is worth it if it endangers more troops and civilians than other ideas? And, no, I don't know what those ideas might be, but the commanders in the field would be a good resource for input on that, which is all I am advocating. To ignore them for the purposes of advancing a political goal would be, well, Rumsfeldian.

Can Obama stick to his withdrawal timetable without encountering problems? Dunno. Remains to be seen. I'll even say...maybe not.

But he is the only candidate who views ceasing our occupation of Iraq to be a desirable outcome. And I agree with him. Don't you?

Enlisted soldiers don't want to be in Iraq. It sucks to be away from home and they all say they're just there for the guy next to them and don't care about the policy blah blah.

It's the career officers who want to stay and it's because they like war. It's what they do. An insurance agent will sell you insurance. A career military officer will sell you war.

I don't understand. If the surge worked then shouldn't we be able to leave now? not 16 months. imo 16 months is reasonable. 1 month is insane.

I thought W. said that iraq was controlled completely by the iraqi gov't. or was he lying? (GAO says he was lying).

Nabb1:PurplePimpSaber:Doesn't farking matter what the commanders say.

I think Sun Tzu warned against ignoring field commanders say. And it's not simply a matter of whether or not forces are withdrawn, but how it's done. Do you think a 16-month, timetable withdrawal is worth it if it endangers more troops and civilians than other ideas? And, no, I don't know what those ideas might be, but the commanders in the field would be a good resource for input on that, which is all I am advocating. To ignore them for the purposes of advancing a political goal would be, well, Rumsfeldian.

Not to mention there are probably just as many private contractors there. I'm sure we could get out quick, but it would be a running fire fight all the way out. There's probably 350 to 400 thousand total Americans in country.

BrokenToilet:FlashHarry:the problem is, the only thing that can hold a manufactured country like iraq together - one that encompasses three historically antithetical ethnic/religious groups - is either a dictatorial strongman or an occupying colonial power.

This is why we can't pull out. If we do, there will be genocide.

Genocide has little to do with why we will never really leave Iraq in my lifetime.

Sammy Jenkins:Bush and McCain: We will stay in Iraq as long as the Iraqis want us there.

Iraqi Goverment: GTFO

Bush and McCain: We will stay in Iraq.



//Profit?

What's the question mark for?

Nabb1:I've wondered how the logistics of a 16-month withdrawal will work. It will be interesting to see what Obama's take is after he's been to Iraq and talks to the commanders in the field.

If you can't stage a fighting retreat in 16 months you need to turn in your stars. With the Iraqis asking us to leave, such a pull out would be dirt simple.

Stage one: pull all us forces back to thier bases

stage two: Land the C-5A's pack everything that can be moved, wrap prima cord and detonators around anything that can't

Stage 3) Lift off of troops, blow the bases, evacuate all US Personnel except for a marine regiment to hold Fortress Diplomacy (the US Embassy)

and if everything goes to shiat after that? well, we were simply accomodating the wishes of the sovereign Iraqi people

BrokenToilet:FlashHarry:the problem is, the only thing that can hold a manufactured country like iraq together - one that encompasses three historically antithetical ethnic/religious groups - is either a dictatorial strongman or an occupying colonial power.

This is why we can't pull out. If we do, there will be genocide.

yes, and it will be our fault. but there's a civil war raging as we speak. and our guys are getting killed in the process. iraqis will die regardless. it's a damn shame - and i believe that cheney, wolfowitz, rumsfeld and feith should be prosecuted at the hague for crimes against humanity - but there's nothing we can do to stop it.

yes, the "surge" has helped a bit around baghdad - mainly because we're paying our former enemies millions of dollars to fight insurgents - but that is not sustainable (and guess where that money is going.). our casualties will increase as our treasury decreases. this will be a multitrillion dollar war soon. it will have catastrophic effects on our economy. nothing good will come from our staying. i repeat: nothing good will come from our staying. mccain is delusional. this war isn't winnable. it was lost the moment george w. bush invaded without a plan to keep the peace.

the only other option is to get down on our farking knees at the UN and beg for help from the rest of the world to form some sort of semi-permanent peacekeeping force or acceptable partition arrangement.

KaponoFor3:Let's assume that this common charge by the Left against the Bush administration is true -- that they just said "you know what? fark em, they're brown, who cares".

Then shouldn't the Obama administration, which will likely be the one handling this issue after November, be representing the exact opposite? Pulling out without regard for whats happening on the ground is saying the EXACT SAME THING -- "you know what? fark em, they're brown, who cares"

Bears repeating.

Nabb1:PurplePimpSaber:Doesn't farking matter what the commanders say.

I think Sun Tzu warned against ignoring field commanders say. And it's not simply a matter of whether or not forces are withdrawn, but how it's done. Do you think a 16-month, timetable withdrawal is worth it if it endangers more troops and civilians than other ideas? And, no, I don't know what those ideas might be, but the commanders in the field would be a good resource for input on that, which is all I am advocating. To ignore them for the purposes of advancing a political goal would be, well, Rumsfeldian.

The Iraqis want to take responsibility for their country. Al-Maliki wants administration of all 18 provinces in Iraqi hands within 6 months. I don't think the Iraqis care at this point how we get out...they just want us out.

As an amateur student of military history, I'm not debating the value of input from the field officers. My point is that the topic is irrelevant right now. In order to maintain any standing in the world, we need to respect the wishes of the democratically-elected Iraqi government. Bring the forces home in the most economically-efficient manner possible.

Karma Curmudgeon:BrokenToilet:FlashHarry:the problem is, the only thing that can hold a manufactured country like iraq together - one that encompasses three historically antithetical ethnic/religious groups - is either a dictatorial strongman or an occupying colonial power.

This is why we can't pull out. If we do, there will be genocide.

Genocide has little to do with why we will never really leave Iraq in my lifetime.

It's all about energy. The blood of western civilization.

He wants to avoid a mistake, sop up the mess thats already been made, and get some rest...

/its not easy being the next guy in a gangbang

But how will the province be maintained without the legions?

Satan_Sunburn:KaponoFor3:Let's assume that this common charge by the Left against the Bush administration is true -- that they just said "you know what? fark em, they're brown, who cares".

Then shouldn't the Obama administration, which will likely be the one handling this issue after November, be representing the exact opposite? Pulling out without regard for whats happening on the ground is saying the EXACT SAME THING -- "you know what? fark em, they're brown, who cares"

Bears repeating.

I can't speak for everyone, but they're farked either way. We (I) never intended to fark them, but we (I) got outvoted, and they got farked.

Now the group that wanted to fark the Iraqis is telling us (me) that if we don't listen to them, the Iraqis will get farked.

So I take that group of farkers advice with a large grain of salt.

Karma Curmudgeon:Genocide has little to do with why we will never really leave Iraq in my lifetime.

That doesn't change the fact that it will still happen.

FlashHarry:BrokenToilet:FlashHarry:the problem is, the only thing that can hold a manufactured country like iraq together - one that encompasses three historically antithetical ethnic/religious groups - is either a dictatorial strongman or an occupying colonial power.

This is why we can't pull out. If we do, there will be genocide.

yes, and it will be our fault. but there's a civil war raging as we speak. and our guys are getting killed in the process. iraqis will die regardless. it's a damn shame - and i believe that cheney, wolfowitz, rumsfeld and feith should be prosecuted at the hague for crimes against humanity - but there's nothing we can do to stop it.

yes, the "surge" has helped a bit around baghdad - mainly because we're paying our former enemies millions of dollars to fight insurgents - but that is not sustainable (and guess where that money is going.). our casualties will increase as our treasury decreases. this will be a multitrillion dollar war soon. it will have catastrophic effects on our economy. nothing good will come from our staying. i repeat: nothing good will come from our staying. mccain is delusional. this war isn't winnable. it was lost the moment george w. bush invaded without a plan to keep the peace.

the only other option is to get down on our farking knees at the UN and beg for help from the rest of the world to form some sort of semi-permanent peacekeeping force or acceptable partition arrangement.

There already WAS a genocide in Iraq, under our watch, that we were powerless to prevent. It is the reason things are so quiet now, the ethnic cleanising has already occurred , even in Baghdad and there are few, if any integrated neighborhoods left.

Karma Curmudgeon:BrokenToilet:FlashHarry:the problem is, the only thing that can hold a manufactured country like iraq together - one that encompasses three historically antithetical ethnic/religious groups - is either a dictatorial strongman or an occupying colonial power.

This is why we can't pull out. If we do, there will be genocide.

Genocide has little to do with why we will never really leave Iraq in my lifetime.

No, but it's a good reason not to impose an unrealistic time line for the sake of political grandstanding.

Every Iraqi is saaaacred..
Every Iraqi is greeaaaaaat..
If an Iraqi gets waaaaasted..
God gets quite Irate...


/Meh..

Sammy Jenkins:Iraq is a sovereign nation and they want us out. But hey, they're just brown people, what the fark do they know?

Hey, when/if they officially ask us to leave, that's really the only situation where the US could actually leave and do so without egg on their face. Right now there are merely rumblings that al-Maliki wants to include a timetable in the security agreement between the countries. However, if al-Maliki and the elected Iraqi government asks us to leave, then I say we can GTFO and then say "not our fault" for whatever happens next.

There is a huge difference between a timetable being set because of domestic political opposition to the war and a timetable being set by the Iraqis themselves, telling us to GTFO

KaponoFor3:Sammy Jenkins:Iraq is a sovereign nation and they want us out. But hey, they're just brown people, what the fark do they know?

Hey, when/if they officially ask us to leave, that's really the only situation where the US could actually leave and do so without egg on their face. Right now there are merely rumblings that al-Maliki wants to include a timetable in the security agreement between the countries. However, if al-Maliki and the elected Iraqi government asks us to leave, then I say we can GTFO and then say "not our fault" for whatever happens next.

There is a huge difference between a timetable being set because of domestic political opposition to the war and a timetable being set by the Iraqis themselves, telling us to GTFO

Well put.

KaponoFor3:Hey, when/if they officially ask us to leave, that's really the only situation where the US could actually leave and do so without egg on their face

This really pisses me off. And you may have many reasons for wanting to stay in Iraq, so I'm not attacking you personally, but every time I hear anything along the lines of "we have to leave with honor/dignity" (or anything similar) I really have to ask: How many people need to die for your sense of honor?

Sammy Jenkins:Satan_Sunburn:Karma Curmudgeon:Genocide has little to do with why we will never really leave Iraq in my lifetime.

That doesn't change the fact that it will still happen.

There was genocide before we got there, there's genocide now that we are there, and there's going to be genocide in the future. Our presence there is irrelevant, so why are we wasting our time/money/lives?

When we leave it will be worse than it is now, which is worse than it was under Saddam. Our presence isn't irrelevant.

BrokenToilet:No, but it's a good reason not to impose an unrealistic time line for the sake of political grandstanding.

Yeah, it'd be a shame if a politician used the Iraq war for political grandstanding....



I don't think a President Obama would want to start his administration with a scene reminiscent of the fall of Saigon.

Sammy Jenkins:

Tell me, can you spot the trend?

GaryPDX:It's all about energy.

Floor-Humper talking point (2002-8): "You stupid hippies with your "No Blood for Oil!" signs STFU. You don't know what you're talking about.

Floor-Humper talking point (2008 - ??): "Of course it's blood for oil. And that's a good thing!"

I guess that's progress, of a sort.

KaponoFor3:Pulling out prematurely, while a viable birth control strategy

There's a name for people who believe this: Parents.