Article's got a point. Every presidential candidate moves to towards the middle in the run-up to the election, but I'm not sure Obama is going to attract more voters than he abandons if he continues down that path. His change of mind on FISA pretty much deflated whatever sense of excitement I had over him. The idealist in me once again gave way to the cynic.

WTF IS THIS GUYS PROBLEM

article also has a point about how even when he isn't changing his positions, he's delivering his reasons in a much more cautious and spintastic manner.

He's not changing, he's nuancing.

"I tried to tell him as a political analyst for Fox News I had to stay neutral. He wasn't buying that..."

Neither am I.

I'll cede the core point - it's political realism. But I don't accept the insinuations.

i kind of feel like maybe people are dissecting things a bit too much.

swahnhennessy:...His change of mind on FISA pretty much deflated whatever sense of excitement I had over him. The idealist in me once again gave way to the cynic.

Very much agreed. Between his FISA flip and his vow to extend the BS faith-based programs of the current administration, I'm no longer QUITE as fired up about voting for him as I was even a month ago. I'm still going to, but I worry. I worry that if he keeps this up...by the time November rolls around, I'll be back to simply voting against someone's opponent more than for them like I have the last few times out.

I really hoped it would be different this time. Why is it so goddamned hard for these twits to read the Constitution they vow to defend and uphold?

so what?
Not only is he an American Politician, he's a Chicago politician, and a Christian to boot.

I only support him because I feel he's the best of the shiatpile we have to pick from. I'm not voting specifically to put Obama in office, I'm voting to keep McCain out.

I expected and accept repositioning for the general election.

What I can't accept is the FISA 'compromise'.

Be careful about gazing into that abyss, Barack.

Peoples panties are obviously covered in sand about all this.

Its not a bad compromise really. These are all good:


* Prohibits the individual states from investigating, sanctioning of, or requiring disclosure by complicit telecoms or other persons.
* Permits the government not to keep records of searches, and destroy existing records (it requires them to only keep the records for a period of 10 years).
* Protects telecommunications companies from lawsuits for "'past or future cooperation' with federal law enforcement authorities and will assist the intelligence community in determining the plans of terrorists."
* Removes requirements for detailed descriptions of the nature of information or property targeted by the surveillance.
* Increased the time allowed for warrantless surveillance to continue from 48 hours to 7 days.
* Requires FISA court permission to wiretap Americans who are overseas.
* Prohibits targeting a foreigner to eavesdrop on an American's calls or e-mails without court approval.
* Allows the FISA court 30 days to review existing but expiring surveillance orders before renewing them.
* Allows eavesdropping in emergencies without court approval, provided the government files required papers within a week.
* Prohibits the government from invoking war powers or other authorities to supersede surveillance rules in the future.



And from what I understand, the bill ONLY gives immunity to companies who are taken to court for an illegal breach AND can prove that the US gov't asked them to break the law


So from what I understand, this will give the companies more of an incentive to cooperate.. as well as sticking the people who are really at fault here with breaking the law.

That is.... Bush & co

Obama is TOAST!!! He will NOT win CA, TX, FL, NM, CO, VA, WV, PA, OH, AZ, AR, GA, NC, SC, NY, MA, MO, KY, SD, NJ.

Because once you lose TRUST you will not you will not win...period.

Hillary Clinton kept her word and I admire her for that...BUT, I still must vote my conviction and I think Obama would be the worst president EVER!!!

SO it's NObama THIS NOvember. I don't think the Democrats can even keep the SENATE this election cycle and I do think the Dems will lose seats in the house.

This year I do believe McCain will be our next President. I like McCain and I can live with him...I'm starting to hate the Democrats so IT's TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE AND PURGE THOSE WEAK IDIOTS.

For too long the true democratic base has suffered under WEAK PATRONIZING LEADERSHIP from the Democratic? Taliban Party but the Revolution has started and it is NOT being televised because of the elites are "eating" cake but how can you lead if no one wants to follow.

The DEMOCRATIC? Taliban Party LEADERSHIP has SHOWN it's TRUE FACE on what it thinks about WOMEN RIGHTS and combatting SEXISM AND MYSOGINY was only WORDS without ACTIONS supported by those women TRATORS who have sold us out for personal ambitions.

WHARRGARBL

FTFA:My kid kept bugging me to get behind Obama. I tried to tell him as a political analyst for Fox News I had to stay neutral.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*inhale*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The Stallion:Obama is TOAST!!! He will NOT win CA, TX, FL, NM, CO, VA, WV, PA, OH, AZ, AR, GA, NC, SC, NY, MA, MO, KY, SD, NJ.

Because once you lose TRUST you will not you will not win...period.

Hillary Clinton kept her word and I admire her for that...BUT, I still must vote my conviction and I think Obama would be the worst president EVER!!!

SO it's NObama THIS NOvember. I don't think the Democrats can even keep the SENATE this election cycle and I do think the Dems will lose seats in the house.

This year I do believe McCain will be our next President. I like McCain and I can live with him...I'm starting to hate the Democrats so IT's TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE AND PURGE THOSE WEAK IDIOTS.

For too long the true democratic base has suffered under WEAK PATRONIZING LEADERSHIP from the Democratic? Taliban Party but the Revolution has started and it is NOT being televised because of the elites are "eating" cake but how can you lead if no one wants to follow.

The DEMOCRATIC? Taliban Party LEADERSHIP has SHOWN it's TRUE FACE on what it thinks about WOMEN RIGHTS and combatting SEXISM AND MYSOGINY was only WORDS without ACTIONS supported by those women TRATORS who have sold us out for personal ambitions.

Thanks, Hillaryis44.

The Stallion:Obama is TOAST!!! He will NOT win CA, TX, FL, NM, CO, VA, WV, PA, OH, AZ, AR, GA, NC, SC, NY, MA, MO, KY, SD, NJ.

Because once you lose TRUST you will not you will not win...period.

Hillary Clinton kept her word and I admire her for that...BUT, I still must vote my conviction and I think Obama would be the worst president EVER!!!

SO it's NObama THIS NOvember. I don't think the Democrats can even keep the SENATE this election cycle and I do think the Dems will lose seats in the house.

This year I do believe McCain will be our next President. I like McCain and I can live with him...I'm starting to hate the Democrats so IT's TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE AND PURGE THOSE WEAK IDIOTS.

For too long the true democratic base has suffered under WEAK PATRONIZING LEADERSHIP from the Democratic? Taliban Party but the Revolution has started and it is NOT being televised because of the elites are "eating" cake but how can you lead if no one wants to follow.

The DEMOCRATIC? Taliban Party LEADERSHIP has SHOWN it's TRUE FACE on what it thinks about WOMEN RIGHTS and combatting SEXISM AND MYSOGINY was only WORDS without ACTIONS supported by those women TRATORS who have sold us out for personal ambitions.

LOL

7/10

Needs more bold text.

Larry Mahnken:FTFA:My kid kept bugging me to get behind Obama. I tried to tell him as a political analyst for Fox News I had to stay neutral.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*inhale*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I came here to say this, but instead was assaulted by The Stallion.

I can has eye bleach?

HulkHands:Thanks, Hillaryis44.

That's got to be directly stolen from there. Nobody else eats enough cheesecake to be able to write that.

MaxxLarge:I really hoped it would be different this time. Why is it so goddamned hard for these twits to read the Constitution they vow to defend and uphold?



No shiat.

GAT_00:HulkHands:Thanks, Hillaryis44.

That's got to be directly stolen from there. Nobody else eats enough cheesecake to be able to write that.

Is that site still active?!?

The Stallion:

There are many decaffeinated brands available today that are just as tasty as the original.

/The More You Know

Larry Mahnken:FTFA:My kid kept bugging me to get behind Obama. I tried to tell him as a political analyst for Fox News I had to stay neutral.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*inhale*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I know you guys like to have your views of Fox unadulterated by actual facts but this guy is a real, live liberal. Worked for RFK and Carter and Mondale and everything.

Duke_Phillips:But it's not 100% perfect so obviously it's 100% bad.

No, it's 100% disappointing.
Like the ending of the third Matrix movie. You wait three movies for Keanu to defeat the evil robots, and instead he dies and they call a truce? WTF?

FTA:So being an astute political analyst I went to YouTube in search of a clue to my kids concerns. I bring up the Yes We Can video which I hadn't seen for several months. I play it once and I'm moved. I play it twice and I must confess I get a bit emotional. For comparison I watch the video of Obama's press conference last week in North Dakota in which he tried to clarify an earlier statement about perhaps "refining" his position on Iraq after a trip there later this month.

Listening to both videos I get it. Obama did sound different.

You mean to tell me that a platitude-filled speech meant to fire up his supporters sounded different from a press conference where he discussed foreign policy?

ravenlore:GAT_00:HulkHands:Thanks, Hillaryis44.

That's got to be directly stolen from there. Nobody else eats enough cheesecake to be able to write that.

Is that site still active?!?

Yesterday, an angry Jesse Jackson threatened to slice off Obama's testicles. Jesse Jackson apparently does not realize that Obama has no "nuts" to cut off. ^

Still up and still full of fail.

Headline: Even a 14-year old can tell Obama has changed sinced New Hampshire

lolwut!?

dillenger69:Not only is he an American Politician, he's a Chicago politician, and a Christian to boot.

I thought he was a mooslim?

In the meantime, cue the "savior/messiah" quotes, I've just worked out the perfect comeback for that!

Rev. Skarekroe:Duke_Phillips:But it's not 100% perfect so obviously it's 100% bad.

No, it's 100% disappointing.
Like the ending of the third Matrix movie. You wait three movies for Keanu to defeat the evil robots, and instead he dies and they call a truce? WTF?


The way I look at it... the bill had no chance of passing without the immunities act.

So if you had your way and if enough demos voted against the bill and watched it get veto'd... at the end of the Matrix 3... you end on a crappy cliffhanger and wait another year for...


The Matrix 4!

The Stallion:Obama is TOAST!!! He will NOT win CA, TX, FL, NM, CO, VA, WV, PA, OH, AZ, AR, GA, NC, SC, NY, MA, MO, KY, SD, NJ.

Because once you lose TRUST you will not you will not win...period.

Hillary Clinton kept her word and I admire her for that...BUT, I still must vote my conviction and I think Obama would be the worst president EVER!!!

SO it's NObama THIS NOvember. I don't think the Democrats can even keep the SENATE this election cycle and I do think the Dems will lose seats in the house.

This year I do believe McCain will be our next President. I like McCain and I can live with him...I'm starting to hate the Democrats so IT's TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE AND PURGE THOSE WEAK IDIOTS.

For too long the true democratic base has suffered under WEAK PATRONIZING LEADERSHIP from the Democratic? Taliban Party but the Revolution has started and it is NOT being televised because of the elites are "eating" cake but how can you lead if no one wants to follow.

The DEMOCRATIC? Taliban Party LEADERSHIP has SHOWN it's TRUE FACE on what it thinks about WOMEN RIGHTS and combatting SEXISM AND MYSOGINY was only WORDS without ACTIONS supported by those women TRATORS who have sold us out for personal ambitions

The crack pipe...put it down.

Meanwhile, McCain is making 10,000 gaffes per day that the media would destroy Obama for. And the media focuses on Obama's shift to center, which every candidate must do if they want to win the independents over.

Two points.

1) This kid is 14, naive, and doesn't understand general election politics. Every speech can't be a will.i.am video. Just wait till his acceptance speech, then you'll be so refilled with hope that you'll tattoo Obama's name on your forehead, kid.

2) The writer of this article works for FoxNews, is biased, is ignoring all the shiat McCain has done this week to expound on the fact that his 14 year old thinks Obama's speeches aren't as good as they used to be. BIG FAT FAIL.

EdMon:Peoples panties are obviously covered in sand about all this.

I'm a bit saddened by the tone many Democrats are taking with people who disagree with them. It can't be that their opinions are valid or informed, they must just have sand in the panties. Next, you'll be calling it "FISA derangement syndrome."

Desquamation:The Stallion:

There are many decaffeinated brands available today that are just as tasty as the original.

/The More You Know

Does not approve:



(hotlinked)

The Stallion:Obama is TOAST!!! He will NOT win CA, TX, FL, NM, CO, VA, WV, PA, OH, AZ, AR, GA, NC, SC, NY, MA, MO, KY, SD, NJ.

Because once you lose TRUST you will not you will not win...period.

Hillary Clinton kept her word and I admire her for that...BUT, I still must vote my conviction and I think Obama would be the worst president EVER!!!

SO it's NObama THIS NOvember. I don't think the Democrats can even keep the SENATE this election cycle and I do think the Dems will lose seats in the house.

This year I do believe McCain will be our next President. I like McCain and I can live with him...I'm starting to hate the Democrats so IT's TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE AND PURGE THOSE WEAK IDIOTS.

For too long the true democratic base has suffered under WEAK PATRONIZING LEADERSHIP from the Democratic? Taliban Party but the Revolution has started and it is NOT being televised because of the elites are "eating" cake but how can you lead if no one wants to follow.

The DEMOCRATIC? Taliban Party LEADERSHIP has SHOWN it's TRUE FACE on what it thinks about WOMEN RIGHTS and combatting SEXISM AND MYSOGINY was only WORDS without ACTIONS supported by those women TRATORS who have sold us out for personal ambitions.

LOUD NOISES! EEPA! EEPA! TRAPPED FOREVER! A THOUSAND EYES! THEY DIDNT BELIEVE ME! WHY WOULDNT THEY BELIEVE ME!

*Gasp Thud*

What, no "savior/messiah" jokes?

C'mon guys, you're slipping!

And hey... I MIGHT be bluffing!

Duke_Phillips:But it's not 100% perfect so obviously it's 100% bad.

Unreasonable search and seizure, especially without a warrant is a violation of the 4th Amendment. Any bill that violates the 4th Amendment is 100% bad, even if only 1% of it actually does so.

"That's not change we can believe in...

Heh heeh, ehh, heh, heaahhh, uhhh, hehhh...." *drools on bib*

Can people stop quoting The Stallion's post, please? It's taking too much room up on my screen and I don't like too much stupid on the screen at one time.

Thanks

Hideously Gigantic Smurf:What, no "savior/messiah" jokes?

C'mon guys, you're slipping!

And hey... I MIGHT be bluffing!

No doubt you are bluffing. Lets see Obamasseiah save you now!

Or something...

we_hates:EdMon:Peoples panties are obviously covered in sand about all this.

I'm a bit saddened by the tone many Democrats are taking with people who disagree with them. It can't be that their opinions are valid or informed, they must just have sand in the panties. Next, you'll be calling it "FISA derangement syndrome."


Its a bit sad when you base my entire FARK post on the first line I used and ignore my valid and informed opinion that follows.

EdMon:Peoples panties are obviously covered in sand about all this.

Its not a bad compromise really. These are all good:


* Prohibits the individual states from investigating, sanctioning of, or requiring disclosure by complicit telecoms or other persons.
* Permits the government not to keep records of searches, and destroy existing records (it requires them to only keep the records for a period of 10 years).
* Protects telecommunications companies from lawsuits for "'past or future cooperation' with federal law enforcement authorities and will assist the intelligence community in determining the plans of terrorists."
* Removes requirements for detailed descriptions of the nature of information or property targeted by the surveillance.
* Increased the time allowed for warrantless surveillance to continue from 48 hours to 7 days.
* Requires FISA court permission to wiretap Americans who are overseas.
* Prohibits targeting a foreigner to eavesdrop on an American's calls or e-mails without court approval.
* Allows the FISA court 30 days to review existing but expiring surveillance orders before renewing them.
* Allows eavesdropping in emergencies without court approval, provided the government files required papers within a week.
* Prohibits the government from invoking war powers or other authorities to supersede surveillance rules in the future.



And from what I understand, the bill ONLY gives immunity to companies who are taken to court for an illegal breach AND can prove that the US gov't asked them to break the law


So from what I understand, this will give the companies more of an incentive to cooperate.. as well as sticking the people who are really at fault here with breaking the law.

That is.... Bush & co

How is this a good compromise? It allows the government to destroy their paper trail, extend out warrantless wiretapping for probably as long as they really need to get what they want, and largely end-run around FISA. The whole thing with wanting FISA out in the first place was to get rid of the paper trail so they could do this stuff without oversight. Why would _anyone_ applaud that? That has nothing to do with protecting people; it's just about unchecked power. On top of that, why are Americans such cowards when it comes to dealing with this stuff? Life is dangerous, 'freedom' is dangerous. Stop acting like such babies and stop getting sucked into the rah rah team mentality and start standing up for your civil liberties and against authoritarian government.

Aside from that, I think telecoms *should not* have been immunised. That way, they get sued, it's a huge clusterfark, and then next time when a president tries to pull this crap, the telecoms say "oh HELL no". Instead, we've now made it tremendously easy for these programs to continue and expand. Compromising with unreasonable positions doesn't help the situation, even long term, as it just sets the stage for further problems as it brings those ideas into a category of acceptance. Additionally, it seems as though there is at least lukewarm opposition to this in enough numbers to avoid having to bend over backwards for the people who support this kind of crap.

Obama pretty much lost his credibility with me by voting for this. I think that there is a pretty good chance that he has with many others as well. The 'center', as it's called, has been shifted to a fairly partisan and polarised position nowadays thanks to hyper-polarisation on the right. Obama had enough support with his prior platform; by doing this he just bleeds off votes from his base of independents and democrats in order to appeal to a bloc that is unlikely to vote for him anyway, and whom he probably doesn't need, and in the process largely eviscerate the goodwill he'd managed to build during much of his campaign. While still at least arguably better than Hillary, he's managed to secure a spot in a sea of dreck now.

In other news, go Feingold for not being such a wimp.

neilio42:Can people stop quoting The Stallion's post, please? It's taking too much room up on my screen and I don't like too much stupid on the screen at one time.

Thanks

Uh, boo hoo.

The Stallion:Obama is TOAST!!! He will NOT win CA, TX, FL, NM, CO, VA, WV, PA, OH, AZ, AR, GA, NC, SC, NY, MA, MO, KY, SD, NJ.

Because once you lose TRUST you will not you will not win...period.

Hillary Clinton kept her word and I admire her for that...BUT, I still must vote my conviction and I think Obama would be the worst president EVER!!!

SO it's NObama THIS NOvember. I don't think the Democrats can even keep the SENATE this election cycle and I do think the Dems will lose seats in the house.

This year I do believe McCain will be our next President. I like McCain and I can live with him...I'm starting to hate the Democrats so IT's TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE AND PURGE THOSE WEAK IDIOTS.

For too long the true democratic base has suffered under WEAK PATRONIZING LEADERSHIP from the Democratic? Taliban Party but the Revolution has started and it is NOT being televised because of the elites are "eating" cake but how can you lead if no one wants to follow.

The DEMOCRATIC? Taliban Party LEADERSHIP has SHOWN it's TRUE FACE on what it thinks about WOMEN RIGHTS and combatting SEXISM AND MYSOGINY was only WORDS without ACTIONS supported by those women TRATORS who have sold us out for personal ambitions.

This

Desquamation:Hideously Gigantic Smurf:What, no "savior/messiah" jokes?

C'mon guys, you're slipping!

And hey... I MIGHT be bluffing!

No doubt you are bluffing. Lets see Obamasseiah save you now!

Or something...

Well, I'd have preferred something a bit more sincere, but...




When you show me footage of children being forced to pray to a cardboard cutout of Barack Obama, then and only then will you have any right whatsoever to accuse us of revering him as some sort of savior/messiah.

Until then... BLOW ME!

i has an internet:How is this a good compromise? It allows the government to destroy their paper trail, extend out warrantless wiretapping for probably as long as they really need to get what they want, and largely end-run around FISA.

Huh? No. They still have to file the paperwork, no matter what.

Obama will take Virginia. I've lived all over it for my entire life. Even nascar fans with sleeveless tees in southwestern VA are watching this election cycle and begrudgingly saying good things about Obama. This is against an opponent that has a storied military service record. That normally guarantees votes in VA.

Thing will be different here.

Especially with the urbanization of northern Virginia in the last 30 years. It's incredible.

EdMon:Its a bit sad when you base my entire FARK post on the first line I used and ignore my valid and informed opinion that follows.

Ok, as to the rest of your post: the FISA compromise provides for very little judicial oversight of government wiretapping. Not only that, but the bill contains an exception which will almost certainly swallow the rule, removing what little oversight was there to begin with. One of your positives was, "Removes requirements for detailed descriptions of the nature of information or property targeted by the surveillance." That shows what little oversight there really is.

Hideously Gigantic Smurf:
Well, I'd have preferred something a bit more sincere, but...

Sorry... I can't troll worth shiat.

Until then... BLOW ME!

SICK BURN, regardless. :)

The Stallion:Obama is TOAST!!! He will NOT win CA, TX, FL, NM, CO, VA, WV, PA, OH, AZ, AR, GA, NC, SC, NY, MA, MO, KY, SD, NJ.

Because once you lose TRUST you will not you will not win...period.

Hillary Clinton kept her word and I admire her for that...BUT, I still must vote my conviction and I think Obama would be the worst president EVER!!!

SO it's NObama THIS NOvember. I don't think the Democrats can even keep the SENATE this election cycle and I do think the Dems will lose seats in the house.

This year I do believe McCain will be our next President. I like McCain and I can live with him...I'm starting to hate the Democrats so IT's TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE AND PURGE THOSE WEAK IDIOTS.

For too long the true democratic base has suffered under WEAK PATRONIZING LEADERSHIP from the Democratic? Taliban Party but the Revolution has started and it is NOT being televised because of the elites are "eating" cake but how can you lead if no one wants to follow.

The DEMOCRATIC? Taliban Party LEADERSHIP has SHOWN it's TRUE FACE on what it thinks about WOMEN RIGHTS and combatting SEXISM AND MYSOGINY was only WORDS without ACTIONS supported by those women TRATORS who have sold us out for personal ambitions.

Decaf is on the shelf to your left.

i has an internet:

How is this a good compromise? It allows the government to destroy their paper trail, extend out warrantless wiretapping for probably as long as they really need to get what they want, and largely end-run around FISA. The whole thing with wanting FISA out in the first place was to get rid of the paper trail so they could do this stuff without oversight. Why would _anyone_ applaud that? That has nothing to do with protecting people; it's just about unchecked power. On top of that, why are Americans such cowards when it comes to dealing with this stuff? Life is dangerous, 'freedom' is dangerous. Stop acting like such babies and stop getting sucked into the rah rah team mentality and start standing up for your civil liberties and against authoritarian government.


So you arent afraid of terrorists. I'm with you bra.



Aside from that, I think telecoms *should not* have been immunised. That way, they get sued, it's a huge clusterfark, and then next time when a president tries to pull this crap, the telecoms say "oh HELL no". Instead, we've now made it tremendously easy for these programs to continue and expand. Compromising with unreasonable positions doesn't help the situation, even long term, as it just sets the stage for further problems as it brings those ideas into a category of acceptance. Additionally, it seems as though there is at least lukewarm opposition to this in enough numbers to avoid having to bend over backwards for the people who support this kind of crap.


Current bill:
When a company gets sued, they will pull out a paper from the US that says 'Break the law' and we can see what actaully happened and prevent this from happening again

Non-immunity bill:
When a company gets sued they will fight tooth and nail to swamp it with paperwork so they do not have to admit fault.




Obama pretty much lost his credibility with me by voting for this. I think that there is a pretty good chance that he has with many others as well. The 'center', as it's called, has been shifted to a fairly partisan and polarised position nowadays thanks to hyper-polarisation on the right. Obama had enough support with his prior platform; by doing this he just bleeds off votes from his base of independents and democrats in order to appeal to a bloc that is unlikely to vote for him anyway, and whom he probably doesn't need, and in the process largely eviscerate the goodwill he'd managed to build during much of his campaign. While still at least arguably better than Hillary, he's managed to secure a spot in a sea of dreck now.

In other news, go Feingold for not being such a wimp.


again... panties. sand

we_hates:Removes requirements for detailed descriptions of the nature of information or property targeted by the surveillance

You mean the part in direct violation of this:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.