Why worry about tomorrow when their profits to be made today?

For years our government and corporate leaders have treated sustainability like it was a four-level word... and now we are going to be paying for it.

You know, the US hasn't seen this much energy uncertainty, economic malaise, and foreign policy bungling since the Carter administration.

Obama isn't the new Carter, George W. Bush is.

Well, I for one learned the lesson of the 70's oil fiascos (My
father owned a gas station): the first thing I've always looked
for in a car is the gas mileage rating: if its rated under 30
highway, I give it a pass.

/Toyota Matrix FTW

There hasn't been a oil refinery built since the 70's. If big oil and the government would cooperate and fight through the inevitable lawsuits filed by environmental groups maybe a new refinery would be built around 2030.

star_miner:There hasn't been a oil refinery built since the 70's. If big oil and the government would cooperate and fight through the inevitable lawsuits filed by environmental groups maybe a new refinery would be built around 2030.

nice try 1/10.

star_miner:There hasn't been a oil refinery built since the 70's. If big oil and the government would cooperate and fight through the inevitable lawsuits filed by environmental groups maybe a new refinery would be built around 2030.

FAIL! The oil industry^ closed down 50% of its existing refineries starting in the 80's to boost profits.

Since the 1970s oil embargo, automakers, lawmakers and oil companies have failed to heed warnings of skyrocketing gas prices. Obvious, dumbass, asinine tags busy brawlingrioting

FTFY, subby.

timmy_the_tooth:star_miner:There hasn't been a oil refinery built since the 70's. If big oil and the government would cooperate and fight through the inevitable lawsuits filed by environmental groups maybe a new refinery would be built around 2030.

nice try 1/10.

Anytime someone brings up painful facts, you call them a troll and try to brush them under the rug.

timmy_the_tooth:Obama isn't the new Carter, George W. Bush is.

wow, THAT talking point sure has legs. about 2 days' worth.

Nemo's Brother:Anytime someone brings up painful factsrepeats busted talking points, you call them a troll and try to brush them under the rug.

See my previous post if you actually care about facts.

timmy_the_tooth:You know, the US hasn't seen this much energy uncertainty, economic malaise, and foreign policy bungling since the Carter administration.

Obama isn't the new Carter, George W. Bush is.

The oil crises started in 73. Nixon/Ford. The economic bungling? Price controls? Whip Inflation Now? Nixon/Ford. Foreign policy bungling. Well, started before Nixon/Ford, But Nixon/Ford/Kissinger didn't help.

Obama will be the new Carter. The poor smart, naive bastard who has to take the hit to try to stave the collapse.

BTW star_miner... the refineries we have have expanded their capacities dramatically in the last 30 years. If anyone wanted to build more, several states (South Dakota presently) are tripping over themselves now to give away handouts and tax abatements to encourage them to build. And the oil companies say, "ehhh".

DjangoStonereaver:Well, I for one learned the lesson of the 70's oil fiascos (My
father owned a gas station): the first thing I've always looked
for in a car is the gas mileage rating: if its rated under 30
highway, I give it a pass.

/Toyota Matrix FTW

We shopped around for a car two years ago. We were hoping to buy a ~2 year old corolla or civic, but they were rare and we were in a crunch. The few we found had high miles even for a 2 year old car and had more features than we felt we needed to pay for (why get power windows and auto tranny when you'd actually PREFER all manual?). We would have spent a good 11-12K.

So we started looking at new cars. Went around to dealerships and told them to not even bother showing me anything that gets under 30mpg city. Period.

They kept on pushing cars with lower mpg, but my wife and I held fast. We saw this coming to some extent, but not quite to 4 dollars per gallon. We're glad we did, we ended up spending under 13K for a car we love and that has given us exactly the gas mileage it was rated for. We purchased it two years ago when it was rated at 34/40 under the old guidelines (which supposedly overestimated efficiency) and have gotten both numbers in city and highway driving, respectively.

I'm not the most consciencious guy out there. I still have a pretty big footprint compared to die-hard environmentalists. But I would like to think that I at least make smart choices. All of the high efficiency light bulbs I purchased (the first one over ten years ago now) have paid for themselves and still have quite a few years of life left. Our car is only costing us 70 dollars a month instead of 70 dollars per tank. While we're still heavily in debt, we're pretty good about staying within our means 99% of the time. It's that 1% that has put our credit card balance a bit too high, and it involves traveling to visit my family, not buying a bigger this or a fancier that.

I was back in Seattle visiting family last month, and saw a few SMART cars running around. Decided to take a look at them, WTF, they don't get that great mpg. 40/45 (EPA 2007); 33/41 (EPA 2008)...really?? I would have expected something more like the Tesla numbers from the way these things look

Lawnchair:The oil crises started in 73. Nixon/Ford

They were first being publicly noticed by '73. It was predicted in 1956 when Hubbert put together with oil production, started 1970 when US domestic production peaked, and were first noticed by the clueful in spring 1971. Of course, then the really bad news hit....



It would appear the midden has hit the windmill, but only the first whiff of the smell has reached you yet.

Since the 1970s oil embargo, automakers, lawmakers and oil companies have failed to heed warnings of skyrocketing gas prices. Obvious, dumbass, asinine tags busy brawling

And watch said companies whine and complain that they need a federal bailout at taxpayer expense when the shiat hits the fan.

/Don't worry about the welfare of all the top execs, though. They'll all get golden parachutes...

abb3w:


It would appear the midden has hit the windmill, but only the first whiff of the smell has reached you yet.

From that link you posted:

Posted by: Some Dude | May 10, 2005 11:20:05 AM

I tend to agree with Ron, don't start going long on oil futures in the hope of it increasing beyond $60-65. The market is cyclical, I feel that we will see oil going back to late 30's before climbing back.

Maybe I am way wrong in my predictions.

Emphasis mine. Oil economics gives me the creeps -- it's like a gathering thunderstorm every body keeps ignoring because the beach is just so damn nice at the moment.

Code_Archeologist 2008-07-06 02:10:32 PM Why worry about tomorrow when their profits to be made today? For years our government and corporate leaders have treated sustainability like it was a four-level word... and now we are going to be paying for it.
==================

+1!

Pretty much. It's our shortsightedness that's led to this problem. And the republicans and congress want a short-term solution.

We need a long-term solution, not a short-term one. Fortunately, most short-term solutions aren't short-term solutions anyway. Nor are they solutions (drilling offshore or anwar).

Technology will get us to the future.

abb3w:
It would appear the midden has hit the windmill, but only the first whiff of the smell has reached you yet.

I'm quite well aware.

And, honestly, it was the geologic peaking of Texas, 1971-2, that gave OPEC the leverage to dick with us in the 70s (though they haven't done much since, now that their population is way overshot, and they're worried about their own radicalized youth overthrowing them in a global depression). It was also the peaking of Texas oil that forced Nixon into a lot of his economic mess (closed gold window, price and wage controls, etc).

Still, I laugh at the "drill our way out" mantra. Yes, we're going to drill. I grew up in the central Kansas oilpatch in the late 70s/early 80s. We drilled like hell. More wells drilled that 6-7 year span after the hump than ever before. Boomtime for the area. Same thing was happening in Permian Texas. Yet all that drilling, fracturing, CO2, water injection, etc didn't stop the inexorable decline in flow once we were over the hump.

Also, as a tie to the election this year, remember that McCain has been the chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation committee. Not the energy committee, per se, but, more that just about anyone, he had power to make something happen. He has experience in domestic affairs, but most of his experience is sitting on his damned thumbs. Every proposed increase in CAFE standards? Went through his committee, where he dutifully killed them. Investment in rail transit? Went through his committee, where he dutifully killed them.

DarnoKonrad:Oil economics gives me the creeps -- it's like a gathering thunderstorm every body keeps ignoring because the beach is just so damn nice at the moment.

You obviously aren't familiar with the technical title I showed the picture of; perhaps the mass-marketed non-technical version of the report might ring a bell?



Oil may be the most obvious problem, but there may be others less surmountable in the wings. As the Atlantean high priest once said^†, "At the moment, the weather might be less important than plate tectonics."

^†OK, maybe not....

abb3w:You obviously aren't familiar with the technical title I showed the picture of; perhaps the mass-marketed non-technical version of the report might ring a bell?

Oh I understand. It still gives me the creeps. Every quarter we measure our economy by 'growth', but the logical conclusion of such a metric doesn't strike me as tenable or wise.

timmy_the_tooth:You know, the US hasn't seen this much energy uncertainty, economic malaise, and foreign policy bungling since the Carter administration.

Obama isn't the new Carter, George W. Bush is.

he's the policy of carter with the ethics of nixon!

overpopulation will have to be addressed eventually or it will provide it's own answer with famine and disease. which will happen when the oil runs out anyway for a lot of the world. times are going to get bad because we are piss poor planners. instant gratification and no sacrifice for us. nope we can't do the right thing. too much money to be made. we can't think big. as a planet.
we're running out of room and resources. of course we'll adapt and make do with other forms of energy but the world we know it is going to change. and in the transition things are going to get bad. really bad. unprecedented bad I do fear. still society could use a reboot. maybe the survivors if there are any can do a better job.

Hobodeluxe:overpopulation will have to be addressed eventually or it will provide it's own answer with famine and disease. which will happen when the oil runs out anyway for a lot of the world. times are going to get bad because we are piss poor planners. instant gratification and no sacrifice for us. nope we can't do the right thing. too much money to be made. we can't think big. as a planet.
we're running out of room and resources. of course we'll adapt and make do with other forms of energy but the world we know it is going to change. and in the transition things are going to get bad. really bad. unprecedented bad I do fear. still society could use a reboot. maybe the survivors if there are any can do a better job.

Is that you The Real Ekzrated?

ekzrated:Is that you The Real Ekzrated?



Don't you start with that.

I'm all for blaming corporations for their part of the puzzle, but we as consumers need to look no farther than in the mirror to throw blame. We buy their shiat, we treat the planet like a garbage bin, and we support the long held foreign policy of our government that made protecting access/dependence on cheap gas ahead of our nations principles and long term economic/national security. All the chickens are coming home to roost and we can blame the corproations and the poltiicans for their failures to lead, but we need to blame ourselves for not willing to be lead or demanding change before now.

Oh crap. Here we go...

EwoksSuck:...but we need to blame ourselves for not willing to be lead or demanding change before now. Oh, that shouldn't be a problem for Americans. We've always been able to accept responsibility for our mistakes, and always own up to our wrong doing. Native Americans, slavery, John Crow laws, newly reported discriminatory practices in mortgage lending... We're great!

timmy_the_tooth:You know, the US hasn't seen this much energy uncertainty, economic malaise, and foreign policy bungling since the Carter administration.

Obama isn't the new Carter, George W. Bush is.

THIS.

/I feel a malaise coming on...

abb3w: As the Atlantean high priest once said†, "At the moment, the weather might be less important than plate tectonics."

†OK, maybe not....

It wasn't the weather - they overdeveloped to boost tourism and become a bigger Delta hub. Then the excess weight caused it to sink to the bottom of the sea...luckily magician got off okay.

/Wait, that's Atlanta.
//Way down
///below the ocean
////where I wanna be
//she may be.

star_miner:There hasn't been a oil refinery built since the 70's. If big oil and the government would cooperate and fight through the inevitable lawsuits filed by environmental groups maybe a new refinery would be built around 2030.

Bull. shiat. Environmentalists have about as much to do with it as my asshole.

sonnyjrob:I was back in Seattle visiting family last month, and saw a few SMART cars running around. Decided to take a look at them, WTF, they don't get that great mpg. 40/45 (EPA 2007); 33/41 (EPA 2008)...really?? I would have expected something more like the Tesla numbers from the way these things look

The SMART car is basically a four wheel, two seat motorcycle with a frame that's too heavy for the tiny engine. So the underpowered engine has to work harder than it should to move the thing, and that's why the mileage isn't that great.

The main advantage of the SMART car is that it can be parked more easily in the crowded European cities where it is more popular & practical.

JimmyFartpants: The SMART car is basically a four wheel, two seat motorcycle with a frame that's too heavy for the tiny engine. So the underpowered engine has to work harder than it should to move the thing, and that's why the mileage isn't that great.

No, they took out the engine that gets upwards of 60 mpg for European and Canadian models and instead used one that gets 1/2 to 2/3rds that mileage. I'm told that with careful driving and some aftermarket mods, some non-US owners have managed to squeeze a whopping 100 mpg (!) from their diesel SMARTs.

So I have to ask, why? The car is fun to drive, but its only real selling point is the crazy gas mileage. Take that out and there's not much left. I simply can't believe that more stringent emmissions controls in the US would cut the mielage by that much, or that they wouldn't find a way to comply without taking away the car's single best feature. The only other thing I can think of is the 'prevailing wisdom' of "Americans won't buy underpowered cars with good fuel efficiency", which is a self-fulfilling prophecy if I ever saw one; if they don't sell them, obviously nobody will buy them.

For that matter, the ForTwo has been around for a decade now. Why did it take them 10 friggin' years to get around to (from how the local dealer described it) _reluctantly_ selling it in the single largest automobile market on earth? They could have simply owned the high-efficiency auto brand in America from day one. Instead they wait until they have to break into one dominated by hybrids, and attempt do so with a crippled model. It's like they desperately _want_ the US launch to fail miserably.

Levin didn't return calls for comment. (Helms died on Friday.) But Representative John Dingell, the powerful Democrat from Detroit who chairs the House Energy and Commerce Committee, argues - as he did more than a decade ago - that tightening CAFE standards unfairly penalizes domestic automakers while rewarding foreign rivals who make more small cars.

I thought that was amusing!

Hobodeluxe:overpopulation will have to be addressed eventually or it will provide it's own answer with famine and disease. which will happen when the oil runs out anyway for a lot of the world. times are going to get bad because we are piss poor planners. instant gratification and no sacrifice for us. nope we can't do the right thing. too much money to be made. we can't think big. as a planet.
we're running out of room and resources. of course we'll adapt and make do with other forms of energy but the world we know it is going to change. and in the transition things are going to get bad. really bad. unprecedented bad I do fear. still society could use a reboot. maybe the survivors if there are any can do a better job.

Population is leveling off, so long as we keep the third world out of famine and epidemic.

It turns out that once people know that their kids will live to adulthood, they start having fewer of them.

You want something that's going to fark our shiat up? Just wait until these go on sale in India for US$2500 a pop in the next few months:

http://tatanano.inservices.tatamotors.com/tatamotors/

Oh oil companies understood perfectly what was going on and so did a lot of other people, they were just sued and legally blocked from drilling and development of resources.