Tough to argue with that kind of logic.

"Could 19 muslim fanatics have hijacked 4 jetliners and flown them into large buildings because they hated our freedoms? In a screenplay, in a movie, something with Bruce Willis in it, maybe. In reality, no."

HowlingFrog:Tough to argue with that kind of logic.

"Could 19 muslim fanatics have hijacked 4 jetliners and flown them into large buildings because they hated our freedoms? In a screenplay, in a movie, something with Bruce Willis in it, maybe. In reality, no."

That wasn't a logical argument. It was a statement. A statement proven by many logical arguments, unlike yours.

HowlingFrog:Could 19 muslim fanatics have hijacked 4 jetliners and flown them into large buildings because they hated our freedoms?

Anyone who says otherwise is a racist.

Media: so reliable in a crisis.

HowlingFrog:because they hated our freedoms

The right-wing stupidity you are quoting there does not bear onto if the act actually occurred. They could have done it on a drunken bet and it still would not have changed the scenario.

PC LOAD LETTER:The right-wing stupidity you are quoting there does not bear onto if the act actually occurred. They could have done it on a drunken bet and it still would not have changed the scenario.

That too.

I can't believe people are still suspicious that a bunch of camel riding cave dwellers were able to mastermind such a plan and fly successfully into buildings (after minimal training and reading a "for dummies" book). There's nothing even remotely suspicious about the whole thing and it's best not to question anything we've been told.

After all, it's not like the dems were in charge, so there's nothing at all to question.

Mordant:I can't believe people are still suspicious that a bunch of camel riding cave dwellers were able to mastermind such a plan and fly successfully into buildings (after minimal training and reading a "for dummies" book).

I can't believe people think it was at all difficult. All it really took was a basic knowledge of the plane and navigation, plus the will to do it. Hijacking a plane? Easy. Standard policy was no resistance. Steering doesn't take that much skill, nor does figuring out which way to go. And once you're over the city, the target is easily seen.

Mordant:I can't believe people are still suspicious that a bunch of camel riding cave dwellers were able to mastermind such a plan and fly successfully into buildings (after minimal training and reading a "for dummies" book).

You're usually the one with the level head, so I hope you're trying to be funny. If not, well...None of them were camel riding cave dwellers. Most were well-educated and from moderately to extremely wealthy and prominent Saudi families. Basically, it would be like a bunch of guys with the last names Rockefeller, Kennedy, Cuomo, Scalia, Hilton, DiLaurentis, and Arquette hijacking a plane and flying them into buildings.

No. Buildings implode into their own footprints every day.

Occam's razor applies here.

I find it fairly easy to believe that it collapsed due to extensive structural damage and main beam failures, coupled with an intense fire to further compromise the structure as well. It collapsed in a similar way to the Murrah building, except the Murrah building hadn't already been ravaged by fire, so it was only a partial collapse.

Also note that under normal circumstances, a fire would not bring down a steel frame building, but that coupled with the lower floor damage from WTC debris was a one-two punch.

When I first saw the video of flames shooting out of the WTC towers upon collapse, my impression was that the airburst caused by the upper floors coming down was pushing the flames out briefly. A lot of people interpreted that as bomb blasts, and the rumor persisted.

You can't say that this administration couldn't run a bake properly and then in the same breath say how they could pull off 9/11 and not have people find out.

thamike:HowlingFrog:Could 19 muslim fanatics have hijacked 4 jetliners and flown them into large buildings because they hated our freedoms?

Anyone who says otherwise is a racist.

because clearly, 'muslim' is a race

Crashing a plane into a building?

How could anyone possibly even consider such a thing?

Ron Paul Revere:What building security person is going to question a person flashing federal government credentials?

Hell you don't even need that. A pair of jeans, a toolbox, and a shirt would get you admitted almost anywhere, especially if you mutter something about new electrical controllers for the HVAC system. In fact the guards would probably let you into the restricted areas no questions asked.

I think it's too early to talk about this. Let's wait 62 years so the kids can joke about it like Pearl Harbor.

/I'm kidding

What are the odds that a building so structurally damaged would fall in its own footprint?

TeddyRooseveltsMustache:Pearl Harbor

Hey, my granddad was bombed by the Germans there! Show some respect.

It was the will of Allah

sheesh, everyone knows that.
invisible slashies

eddyatwork:A pair of jeans, a toolbox, and a shirt would get you admitted almost anywhere, especially if you mutter something about new electrical controllers for the HVAC system. In fact the guards would probably let you into the restricted areas no questions asked.

Well, at least 9/11 changed that.

WTC 7 had been badly damaged by the tower collapses (pictures exist, and they're not hard to find, of a 20-story gouge out of the corner of the building), and a large amount of it was on fire, probably fed by the huge-ass tanks of diesel kept in the building by the NYC emergency management agency. You do not need "controlled demolition" or anything like it to account for the building's collapse, and Truthers have spent the last seven years trying to avoid hearing that.

The 9/11 Truth movement is nothing more than a politically-oriented conspiracy theory by the whackadoodle fringe of the libertarian Left. With a different set of causes, they'd be part of the hard green/radical animal rights crew. And I say this as a dedicated liberal myself, albeit one who thinks stupidity and paranoia in the service of political change hurts everyone.

Logic before politics, people. Cui bono is only part of the puzzle.

Oh great, not another 9/11 conspiracy thread.

eddyatwork:Hell you don't even need that. A pair of jeans, a toolbox, and a shirt would get you admitted almost anywhere, especially if you mutter something about new electrical controllers for the HVAC system. In fact the guards would probably let you into the restricted areas no questions asked.

A bucket (new window) will work too.

I believe the simplest explanation is found in the terrorists hijacking the planes themselves, the incompetence of our government to do much in the case of a possible emergency, and the previous politicking that spurned reports of the Clinton administration.

Not a vast conspiracy, look at some of the claims people make, they simply do not fit in with such malicious intentions and reaching capabilities. Simple terrorism, divisiveness, and bureaucracy.

eddyatwork:
Hell you don't even need that. A pair of jeans, a toolbox, and a shirt would get you admitted almost anywhere, especially if you mutter something about new electrical controllers for the HVAC system. In fact the guards would probably let you into the restricted areas no questions asked.

Have you tried it? I have (I actually do frequently need to get into the HVAC areas for site audits). It usually doesn't work. It's not often that the security folks at a building actually have anything to do, so they relish delaying me anyway they can while they run down the higher-ups who actually know why I'm onsite and what I'm up to. Maybe it's because I wear beige Dockers rather than jeans.

Keep posting, HowlingFrog. We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you.

Sarcasticus:What are the odds that a building so structurally damaged would fall in its own footprint?

Close to 100%. What did you want it to do? Summersaults across the Hudson river?

eddyatwork:Ron Paul Revere:What building security person is going to question a person flashing federal government credentials?

Hell you don't even need that. A pair of jeans, a toolbox, and a shirt would get you admitted almost anywhere, especially if you mutter something about new electrical controllers for the HVAC system. In fact the guards would probably let you into the restricted areas no questions asked.

huh. my brother is a high-rise window washer on a few of the tallest buildings downtown. he's been doing it for years and is well known by most of the buildings' staff, and constantly has to jump through hoops to get a pass for the roof or any other areas he needs to get to. i know it's been a serious hassle sneaking me up onto the roofs a few times, even in this little flyover town

on the other hand, i could probably gain access to the roof of the tallest building in my state within 20 minutes or so if i wanted

/shrug

looking down
top of missouri

HowlingFrog:Tough to argue with that kind of logic.

"Could 19 muslim fanatics have hijacked 4 jetliners and flown them into large buildings because they hated our freedoms? In a screenplay, in a movie, something with Bruce Willis in it, maybe. In reality, no."

You still into the cruise missile deal or did you jump on the "no-plane" theory some of your other little dumbass buddies latched onto?

Our insatiable thirst for Middle Eastern oil came home to roost on 9/11.

The irony of being attacked with jet fuel was lost on nobody.

It was as if the Arabs said "HERE IS YOUR OIL, AMERICA" as we were beheaded with the Sword of Allah.

People this dumb do exist:

Pearl Harbor was an inside job (new window)

CygnusDarius FTW. Sorry, Bucky. I'm not saying your girl's not sex on legs, but I like my women a little toastier than that.

12.fl.oz.:If you happened to watch T.V. on 9/11, then what you saw was what really happened. Some people flew some airplanes into some buildings. No more, no less.

I got a question since we both were watching the entire coverage that day. Why were there 3-6 helicopters that weren't saving anyone?

Someone said, "Hey look, they are trying to rescue those people." Come to find out no media mentioned the helicopters on that day. the Helicopters never saved anyone.

/People how have questions shouldn't be labelled and turned away they should have their questions answered

CygnusDarius:Bucky Katt:Do we really have to go through this again?

Can't we discuss this instead?



Or this?.

works for me ;)

Vangor:I believe the simplest explanation is found in the terrorists hijacking the planes themselves, the incompetence of our government to do much in the case of a possible emergency, and the previous politicking that spurned reports of the Clinton administration.

Not a vast conspiracy, look at some of the claims people make, they simply do not fit in with such malicious intentions and reaching capabilities. Simple terrorism, divisiveness, and bureaucracy.

That's basically my take too. The real coverup has been the coverup by the Bushies regarding how incompetent and how politicized the Bushies were leading up to 9/11.

The problem is, they were incompetent, they were politicized, and they have made any actual investigation so lousy that it just feeds the rumors.

But fark it, it worked for them. They should have been impeached, they should never have been elected in 2004, and they got everything they wanted in terms of power, money, and destruction of the American People and our Constitution.

haikupoet:
The 9/11 Truth movement is nothing more than a politically-oriented conspiracy theory by the whackadoodle fringe of the libertarian Left. With a different set of causes, they'd be part of the hard green/radical animal rights crew. And I say this as a dedicated liberal myself, albeit one who thinks stupidity and paranoia in the service of political change hurts everyone.

It's sad - for the longest time, I thought 9/11 Truthers were limited to a bunch of wackjob websites and people trolling on Fark. Then, a few months ago, I was talking to a well-educated person, and someone who I otherwise respect, and somehow the topic of 9/11 came up, and he insisted that it was an inside job, and that WTC 7 was controlled demolition. It was very sad to see someone like that spouting those crazies theories.

Also:




/Click to enlarge
//That's what she said.

CygnusDarius:Or this?

There's not much more to discuss about Raven Riley as she's shown us about everything we need to know about her.

What the hell? There were three "twin towers?" Is this satire? Everyone has seen the footage of the World Trade Center collapse. Two buildings fell that day. I don't know what I'm looking at here, but isn't it a bit odd that a third building collapsed and no one has ever mentioned it until July 5, 2008?

CygnusDarius:

Can't we discuss this instead?


Or this?.

I'm all for an inside job on that.

I saw this on another board. I think it sums it up quite nicely:

The 911 truth movement hurts the left-wing. Why? Because 1) it makes us all look like crazy and 2) way to many (but not all) truthies end up being jerks about it and attack critical thinking leftists rather than the right wing government that causes so many problems.

Now, yes our government sucks. Yes, it is capable of killing over 3,000 Americans (*cough* iraq war *cough*). Yes, I've seen most of your videos of your theories. I still don't buy it. For several reasons:

1) Even if it is true, I want hard evidence. The U.S. government does so many horrible things that we have hard evidence of and can focus on, why waste our time on speculation?

2) The vast majority of scientists say that the scientifically the government story checks out (yes, there are a few who disagree but there are also nutcases who disagree about evolution). But wait, you say, "it's all a conspiracy. The government intimidated/bribed/shot with mind altering lasers all the sceintists". Sorry, but the government has already tried this and attempted to block information about smoking causing cancer and global climate change. Guess what, the scientists resisted government pressure. History has shown scientists are pretty good about not being brainwashed.

3) The fact that the government was quick to abuse 911 and use it for it's own benefit doesn't mean they caused 911. They were just as quick to use Katrina to their own benefit and steal land from poor black people, but I don't hear about any secret government hurricane creating machines. Abusing disasters is what the U.S. is good at. See Naomi Klein's shock doctrine.

4) See #1. It is the most important. End the war, end racism, these are known truths. The government has killed far more people in the Iraq war than they would have killed in 9/11 had they done it.

5) Al Qaeda targeted the World Trade Center, a symbol of American evil to the societies oppressed by our economic imperialism (such as the middle east). It makes sense that they'd attack that building. (the pentagon also makes sense for obvious reasons). However, prior to 9/11, the WTC was much more symbolic to the outside world than to Americans. If the U.S. government wanted to really rally up the American people it would have chosen something more along the lines of the Statue of Liberty.

6) We've been beating the fark out of the middle-east and giving them good reason they hate us, if they didn't do 9/11 why have they been waiting so long to punch back?

7)The common truthie argument that a bunch of arabs wouldn't be able to plan such an extensive attack without our government's help is just plain racist. Arabs are just as smart as you and I.

8) The government sucks at keeping things under wraps, if they had done 9/11 it would have taken lots of planning with lots of people involved and information would have leaked out by now.

9) It's something that lots of people want to be true so they have an excuse to blame the government for 9/11. It's easier to believe something if you want it to be true. But sadly, all the evidence sides with the government's story this time around, despite what some guy with no understanding of basic physics tells you in a conspiracy documentary. If it makes you feel better, the government still did cause 9/11, just not directly. The U.S. government has been oppressing people in the middle-east for a long while and then they responded by attacking us back.

10) Even if it was true, wait until there is actual evidence for it. Right now you are harming the movement. Nobody believes you and you aren't going to accomplish anything except for scaring rational people from joining in opposition to our government. Not to mention that attacking legitimate leftists because we don't wear tin-foil hats stops us from doing productive work. With truthies being so incredibly destructive to left-wing movements, you are HELPING the government. If the government actually did cause 9/11 that is all the more reason why you SHOULDN'T be helping it. Focus on more legitimate criticisms of the government and wait until that video tape of a guy planting the explosives or some sort of real evidence surfaces before you talk about the iluminati or controlled demolitions.

I'm sorry that that was long but I do a lot of work as an activist and I'm all for solidarity and differing points of view but I'm tired of truthies coming in with their conspiracy theories and trying to turn the anti-war movement into a "soapbox for me and my wacky conspiracy ideas" movement, especially when many truthies take on a holier-than-thou attitude.

CygnusDarius:eddyatwork:...mutter something about new electrical controllers for the HVAC system. In fact the guards would probably let you into the restricted areas no questions asked.

A bucket (new window) will work too.

A bucket isn't going to let you escape notice as you're ripping out wall board to gain access to structural members (and the only buildings it would really get you into are ones where there is essentially public access anyhow to ease visitor access). Also, the sort of demo explosives conspiracy nuts are talking about would take a hand truck and time with operating power tools to gain appropriate access for installation.

And that all just doesn't make sense. An airplane of the size used could be counted on to total the buildings and have a high death count whether or not the buildings fell. Why increase the risk of exposure by many orders of magnitude by riddling the buildings with physical evidence for no appreciable benefit to the scheme? No matter how tight I make my tinfoil hat, the conspiracy therories make way less sense than the official story.

The only conspiracy theory I find plausible is that the Airforce shot down Flight 93, but that could be optimism on my part - if the Airforce could get tracking on all domestic flights, identify the hazard, and scramble in time, shooting it down was the correct and competent move. Not sure why'd they lie if that was the case though.

Tommy MooThere were three "twin towers?" Is this satire?

You're not familiar with the World Trace Center complex, are you? It's comprised of 7 buildings (I believe). The two you recognize would be the 'Twin Towers' of that complex.

I'll reserve judgement until I hear Bruce Willis' opinion.

Another on the side of tits.

Okay, let's look at things:

1) The hijackers had been planning this for years
2) they had been researching and training for years
3) keeping a plane in the air really isn't that hard. I've done it. Granted, I've never been behind the controls of a jet, but keeping a plane in the air isn't hard.
4) they had quite some time to figure out the weak points in our airport security at the time and how to exploit it.
5) They didn't do it because they hated our freedoms, it was because they were radical muslims who hated the fact that the U.S. is not a Muslim nation.
6) WTC #7 was close enough to the two towers to collapse from all the debris from the two towers
7) the collapse of the two towers falling in on themselves wasn't a government planned and controlled demolition, it was a friggin' stroke of luck both times.
8) The loudest voices of the 'Bush and the Government planned the 9-11' are democrats who shortly before 9-11 were accusing Bush of stealing an election.
9) If a president and his intern can not have oral sex alone in the oval office without the entire nation finding out, then how the hell can the President and Vice President plan out the 9-11 attacks without everyone else finding out?
10) The conspiracy theorists who have 'evidence' that the government is behind this are still alive. They aren't in hiding, they aren't protecting their identity, and the government, who supposedly, killed 3000 people without a second thought, hasn't killed the conspiracy theorists.
11) If a missile was launched and fired into the Pentagon, then where was it fired from, by whom, and almost 7 years later, why has no one stepped forward and claimed to have known that person or loaded the missile into the launcher or onto the plane?
12) If a missile hit the Pentagon, and four jets were hijacked that morning, two of them were flown into the WTC towers, one into a field in Pennsylvanian, where's the fourth plane, and where are those passengers?
13) If explosives were planted in the WTC towers to create a controlled explosion, then a few people would have been needed for about a month per building to rig explosives. Again, no one has stepped forward to say that they planted the explosives, over heard anything, or saw a large pile of explosives.
14) Given the hatred for Bush, the number of people in the Bush administration who have left over the past 7 years, no one has come forward saying that they over heard or planned the attack with Bush. No unexplained deaths that could be pointed to and accused of being that Bush minion who didn't like the planning of 9-11, threatened to speak and was killed.

Yay for the troofers!

In a choice between tits and a flamewar, always go with tits.

/can't chilidog a flamewar.

CygnusDarius:

I'll be in my bunk. Ga.

TeddyRooseveltsMustache:I think it's too early to talk about this. Let's wait 62 years so the kids can joke about it like Pearl Harbor.

As long as I don't have to watch some bloody awful film about it like they did with Pearl Harbor