I'm with Ebert on this one.

I have stared endlessly at photos of rallies like this one (new window)and all I wonder is, someone here has the shiats really, really bad. What do you do?

That's the documentary I want to see.

Meh I thought it was interesting for a propaganda flick and to see how its visuals are used even today.

I agree. Terrible film. Here is an excerpt.

I have to admit, once you get past the initial visceral effect of seeing those massive Nazi rallies on film, it is a quite a disjointed snoozer.

Not the Citizen Kane of propoganda films?

/rosenknopse

The part where Hitler puts his autograph on the Grail Diary was funny though.

Thank god someone with a public forum finally said it. It's a piece of shiat, always has been. I'm not sure who first fingered it as a masterpiece, but they've been responsible for the torture of generations of media studies students ever since.

Considering that Herr Obama wants his acceptance speech to be given in a great outdoor stadium, we may soon see a similar event with crowds of the party faithful crying and swooning over their anointed one. I wonder if someone will be making a documentary film of that?

Pope George Ringo:I agree. Terrible film. Here is an excerpt.

That was farking classic. They almost actually step to the beat.

It's funny to think that all those thousands of people either died horribly or had to go into hiding.

USA! USA!

ok, Russia! Russia!

Nabb1:I have to admit, once you get past the initial visceral effect of seeing those massive Nazi rallies on film, it is a quite a disjointed snoozer.

Can you imagine what it was like to be there?

Now think about what seeing this in the movie theaters of the day must have been like. Back in the 1930s this must have been nothing short of a spectacle.

Remember, we are used to seeing images like this but in that time in history the scene from Gone With The Wind of the train station was considered breathtaking. (And in case you don't remember it, that scene still is today.)

Pope George Ringo:I agree. Terrible film. Here is an excerpt.

Brilliant.

Mugato:The part where Hitler puts his autograph on the Grail Diary was funny though.

Well played. I giggled at that.

Alien Robot:Considering that Herr Obama wants his acceptance speech to be given in a great outdoor stadium, we may soon see a similar event with crowds of the party faithful crying and swooning over their anointed one. I wonder if someone will be making a documentary film of that?

Oh good God, are you so desperate that you have lowered yourself to using Heir Obama?

You do understand that Hitler considered black people to be inferior.

What is his opinion about it? He didn't write anything pro or con.

Alien Robot:Considering that Herr Obama wants his acceptance speech to be given in a great outdoor stadium, we may soon see a similar event with crowds of the party faithful crying and swooning over their anointed one. I wonder if someone will be making a documentary film of that?

3/10

You might get a few bites with this, but it's just too obvious and the Godwin is too extreme to merit a higher score for your troll attempt.

Alien Robot:Considering that Herr Obama wants his acceptance speech to be given in a great outdoor stadium, we may soon see a similar event with crowds of the party faithful crying and swooning over their anointed one. I wonder if someone will be making a documentary film of that?

Oh give it a rest already.

Brother Karamazov:You might get a few bites with this, but it's just too obvious and the Godwin is too extreme to merit a higher score for your troll attempt.

You know you would be right if this guy wasn't 100% dead serious.

No kidding.

Ebert:"We see a lot of right-arm saluting in 'Triumph of the Will,' noticing how Hitler curls his fingers back to his palm before withdrawing the salute each time, with a certain satisfaction. What a horrible man."

I can think of a thousand reasons that would make Hitler a "horrible man." Curling his fingers bck before withdrawing his salute isn't one of them. What a horrible review.

Fascism produces nothing of value?

My word; how shocking.

Alien Robot:I can think of a thousand reasons that would make Hitler a "horrible man." Curling his fingers bck before withdrawing his salute isn't one of them. What a horrible review.

Why don't you get back to whining about Herr Obama instead of defending Hitler, you sad attempt at a man.

Alien Robot:What a horrible review.

it's not the fingers, it's the whole action and smile. Hitler is smiling at a war machine.

Random Reality Check:Nabb1:I have to admit, once you get past the initial visceral effect of seeing those massive Nazi rallies on film, it is a quite a disjointed snoozer.

Can you imagine what it was like to be there?

Now think about what seeing this in the movie theaters of the day must have been like. Back in the 1930s this must have been nothing short of a spectacle.

Remember, we are used to seeing images like this but in that time in history the scene from Gone With The Wind of the train station was considered breathtaking. (And in case you don't remember it, that scene still is today.)

Oh, it has some of the most compelling images ever put to film in it, no doubt. From a cinematography point, I think the film has a lot going for it. As a film, though, it falls flat. And I'm sure Germans had some pretty high standards for films in the 1930's. Some of the film work being done in Germany up until then was as good as you could find anywhere.

El_Swino:... the torture of generations of media studies students ever since.

So, you're saying there is an upside?

Now if he would just re-watch Mildred Pierce...

Confabulat:Alien Robot:I can think of a thousand reasons that would make Hitler a "horrible man." Curling his fingers bck before withdrawing his salute isn't one of them. What a horrible review.

Why don't you get back to whining about Herr Obama instead of defending Hitler, you sad attempt at a man.

Where did I defend Hitler? He, along with Stalin and Mao are certainly the 20th Century's most evil men responsible as they are for about 100 million dead among them. Or are you now equating criticism of Obama as a defense of Hitler?

Separated at birth?

Alien Robot:Where did I defend Hitler?

The bit where you defended him smiling and nearly mocking the thousands he would send to their deaths, I guess.

Yeah, just you guys wait when they find in some South American country all the long lost scenes of the frauleins frolicking in the changing rooms and communal baths.

global wombats:Separated at birth?

Ha, the Daleks were patterned after the Nazis, you know.

WhyteRaven74:it's not the fingers, it's the whole action and smile. Hitler is smiling at a war machine.

But his actions in instigating the mass deaths of WWII make him far worse of a person than any quirky personality traits.

Confabulat:global wombats:Separated at birth?

Ha, the Daleks were patterned after the Nazis, you know.

Not salt and pepper pots?

Random Reality Check:Oh good God, are you so desperate that you have lowered yourself to using Heir Obama?

You do understand that Hitler considered black people to be inferior.

Actually, one of the most terrifying things about Hitler was not the threat of his ideology, but that his ideology only became a threat when he was able to use xenophobic fear to produce a nationalistic fervor that allowed him to enact policies that were not adequately questioned.

The most terrifying result of his rise was the notion that human beings are so easily manipulated into blind faith during times when skepticism and rational thought were most important.

So, I'm sure the comment had less to do with racism than the blind faith of nationalistic pride invested into individuals who make false promises. The Hitler comparison has teeth when it comes to judging leaders who use demagoguery and empty rhetoric to manipulate the support of their countrymen in order to serve their own selfish purposes.

Confabulat:Alien Robot:Where did I defend Hitler?

The bit where you defended him smiling and nearly mocking the thousands he would send to their deaths, I guess.

Umm, what? You must be on drugs or something to have an imagination that vivid. I never defended him smiling. I pointed out that calling him a horrible person because he was smiling and not because of the mass deaths he is reponsible for is bad writing on Ebert's part.

I saw both this film and the documentary about Riefenstahl (great by the way) and the woman's arrogance was astounding.

I think over time the impact of this film has decreased since we are knowledgeable about propaganda films but to me it's still astounding how ideology can affect the film-making process. Even in her other films like "Olympia", she didn't just depict and propagandize the Nazis but her film-making and sensibilities were thoroughly fascist.

GungFu:Confabulat:global wombats:Separated at birth?

Ha, the Daleks were patterned after the Nazis, you know.

Not salt and pepper pots?

Nazi salt & pepper pots.

There is no difference between the Nazis and regular humans.

Look how reactionary and right-wing the USA became nearly a decade ago after 9/11. And that was a relatively tiny insult to a large nation.

Germany had just lost The War To End All Wars when Hitler showed up to reassure them that no, really, they were the greatest country ever, no matter what has happened lately.

They took it to an extreme, but I have no doubt that a few disasterous military strikes in the US would turn many of our people into 21st century Nazis, and you know who you are.

Alien Robot:I pointed out that calling him a horrible person because he was smiling and not because of the mass deaths he is reponsible for is bad writing on Ebert's part

And that's how it starts...

If you really want to compare apples to apples, look at any of Michael Moore's work, then use the magic of bit torrent to get your hands on the Nazi "documentary" Der Ewige Jude, The Eternal Jew.

It is truly vile, pretty much as far as one can go with anti-Jewish propaganda, and it lacks the polish and sophistication of Reifenstahl's work. The ironic thing is that Moore is no more attentive to the truth. His goals are much less dangerous; he tilts at much less threatening windmills, but both take little snippets of truth and pad them with neurotic fantasies; their styles are different but their insistence on redirecting the viewers mind to undisciplined emotion rather than rational thought is identical. They both treat the viewer like sheep. If large swathes of the pubic want to believe, they do not need to be pushed very hard, or with any unusual degree of directorial skill.

Look at Moore's brief words with an ailing Charlton Heston on gun violence, then compare it to Albert Einstein's appearance in the other movie - different language, same treatment.

I don't think Ebert gets the point. Triumph of the Will isn't supposed to humanize the Germans or Hitler. It's supposed to show Germany as a strong, united force, and Hitler as someone to be worshiped; something superhuman.

But since the thread is already Godwinned, why don't we expose Schindler's List for the drawn-out, overly dramatic piece of crap it really is? When Schindler says "I could have saved more," I just rolled my eyes and felt thankful it was almost over. I watched the film for a Holocaust Studies class. Unlike the other books and films I took in that semester, Schindler's List made me feel no more pity for the victims or their sympathizers. Dull, dull, dull.

keloyd:If you really want to compare apples to apples, look at any of Michael Moore's work, then use the magic of bit torrent to get your hands on the Nazi "documentary" Der Ewige Jude, The Eternal Jew.

It is truly vile, pretty much as far as one can go with anti-Jewish propaganda, and it lacks the polish and sophistication of Reifenstahl's work. The ironic thing is that Moore is no more attentive to the truth. His goals are much less dangerous; he tilts at much less threatening windmills, but both take little snippets of truth and pad them with neurotic fantasies; their styles are different but their insistence on redirecting the viewers mind to undisciplined emotion rather than rational thought is identical. They both treat the viewer like sheep. If large swathes of the pubic want to believe, they do not need to be pushed very hard, or with any unusual degree of directorial skill.

Look at Moore's brief words with an ailing Charlton Heston on gun violence, then compare it to Albert Einstein's appearance in the other movie - different language, same treatment.

Der Ewige Jude is clearly anti-Semitic, so what group of people is Moore hoping to promote persecution of in your opinion? I don't think this is a case of apples to apples. Just because a documentary is slanted doesn't mean it is targeted at demonizing one particular group in the way that Der Ewige does so. I also wouldn't compare that film to the recent Ben Stein intelligent design pic either by the way.

Nabb1:Oh, it has some of the most compelling images ever put to film in it, no doubt. From a cinematography point, I think the film has a lot going for it. As a film, though, it falls flat. And I'm sure Germans had some pretty high standards for films in the 1930's. Some of the film work being done in Germany up until then was as good as you could find anywhere.

I would agree to everything you just said. I only wanted to balance out what you had said earlier more than post any disagreement of your position.

Hey, as an aside, have you noticed the distinct change in Fark's discussions as more "new people" are coming in? It seems like these n00bs are ruder than the earlier batch and I'm wondering how management is going to tackle that problem.

Sorry for the threadjack.

TomServo0,

Let me say, discretely, that I agree totally on Schindler's List. It was dripping with schmaltz. What the public needs (or needed, and the opportunity is passed) is more movies about the Jewish resistance, the heroes fighting with their back against the wall in the ghettos. This has only gotten very occasional attention. Instead, we get stuck with little girls who write diaries and piano players.

The guy from The Pianist was a biatch coward too. I watched that whole movie shouting (in my head) 'GET THE HELL OUT OF YOUR HIDING PLACE AND KILL SOME GERMANS!'

Confabulat
There is no difference between the Nazis and regular humans.

Look how reactionary and right-wing the USA became nearly a decade ago after 9/11. And that was a relatively tiny insult to a large nation.

Germany had just lost The War To End All Wars when Hitler showed up to reassure them that no, really, they were the greatest country ever, no matter what has happened lately.

They took it to an extreme, but I have no doubt that a few disasterous military strikes in the US would turn many of our people into 21st century Nazis, and you know who you are.

Very well said. I think that is why looking back on Nazi Germany scares so many people. People think, "Well, we could never do that." But it has been done, and it will be done again, unfortunately. Frankly it scares the hell out of me. I really would like to think of myself better than falling in with the mass, but then so does everyone else. You never know.

keloyd:TomServo0,

Let me say, discretely, that I agree totally on Schindler's List. It was dripping with schmaltz. What the public needs (or needed, and the opportunity is passed) is more movies about the Jewish resistance, the heroes fighting with their back against the wall in the ghettos. This has only gotten very occasional attention. Instead, we get stuck with little girls who write diaries and piano players.

The guy from The Pianist was a biatch coward too. I watched that whole movie shouting (in my head) 'GET THE HELL OUT OF YOUR HIDING PLACE AND KILL SOME GERMANS!'

Easy to judge with 20/20 hindsight. Anyway, I think they should make Maus into an animated movie. That's an account full of neither sentimentality nor over-blown heroism.

I think it is a pretty good film. I try to break it out and watch it about every three to four months. And no, I am not a Nazi.

TomServo0
I don't think Ebert gets the point. Triumph of the Will isn't supposed to humanize the Germans or Hitler. It's supposed to show Germany as a strong, united force, and Hitler as someone to be worshiped; something superhuman.

But since the thread is already Godwinned, why don't we expose Schindler's List for the drawn-out, overly dramatic piece of crap it really is? When Schindler says "I could have saved more," I just rolled my eyes and felt thankful it was almost over. I watched the film for a Holocaust Studies class. Unlike the other books and films I took in that semester, Schindler's List made me feel no more pity for the victims or their sympathizers. Dull, dull, dull.

I'm pretty sure that real life isn't filled with movie explosion after movie explosion (for reference, see article on Fark yesterday about stupid movie explosions). It wasn't supposed to be exciting. You must be one distanced sort of person if Schindler's List didn't affect you at all. I felt like I'd had my guts ripped out of me the first (and only, I'll admit) time I watched it.
But I'll give you one thing, ending of it was a little cheesy. Touching, but cheesy. ;)

I'm going to have to call shenanigans on Ebert's review now that I rtfa. If this was an old film of the same level of skill on a more palatable subject and intended audience, the review would have been much better. Ebert is not compartmentalizing the (vile) subject from the skilled directing that is far ahead of its time, imho.

Ebert has demonstrated that it is always a better career move to say bad things about Nazis.

For the record, half of my elderly relatives were killin Nazis 65 years ago, the rest were killin Japs, except for one great-aunt by marriage who was Japanese herself, and married into the family later.

Coco-ebert - your point on the goals of the two propaganda pieces is valid, but I reeeallly don't like Michael Moore. He can kiss my whole arse.

I'm with Ebert: Triumph of the Will is probably at least an hour too long, probably more like an hour and a half. It does get really, really tedious. After a while, you're just grumbling at the screen, "We get it, you hate Jews and want to take over the world."

Schindler's List is a good movie that's, ultimately, sabotaged by Spielberg's distrust of the audience. That is, he can't bear to think that you might have any sort of doubt that Schindler's a good person, which is why there's that cheesy-ass "This pin could have saved 2 more lives!" speech, backed with one of the most painfully obvious symbols ever, in which Schindler changes into a concentration camp uniform. We get it, he's with them now.

Of course, "Saving Private Ryan" was far worse, with the bookended segments of Old Private Ryan going back to Normandy with his hot granddaughter, and the closing "I'm a good man, aren't I?" speech. Spielberg couldn't bear for us to think Tom Hanks died to go get an asshole. But we know that there was as much un-heroic, useless stuff that went on in WWII as heroic stuff. We know this, Steve. You don't have to reassure us that everyone in The Greatest Generation is a good person who has hot granddaughters now.

/probably some spoilers in there
//doesn't think that you need to go out of your way to mark spoilers on movies that have been out more than 10 years

that_other_internet:Actually, one of the most terrifying things about Hitler was not the threat of his ideology, but that his ideology only became a threat when he was able to use xenophobic fear to produce a nationalistic fervor that allowed him to enact policies that were not adequately questioned.

And yet we live in a post 9/11 world. This is something Confabulat pointed out but didn't go far enough for me.

that_other_internet:The most terrifying result of his rise was the notion that human beings are so easily manipulated into blind faith during times when skepticism and rational thought were most important.

On the good side, Rudy 9/11 9/11 didn't win the Republican primary by a landslide. Maybe there's still hope for us all yet.

that_other_internet:So, I'm sure the comment had less to do with racism than the blind faith of nationalistic pride invested into individuals who make false promises. The Hitler comparison has teeth when it comes to judging leaders who use demagoguery and empty rhetoric to manipulate the support of their countrymen in order to serve their own selfish purposes.

Which is why anyone with a brain needs to be extra specially vigilant. It would be nice if people in our schools also got this message. You don't have read too many Fark threads to understand that concept.

I'm disappointed that all of you are tearing this movie apart.
Look at this excerpt and tell me this isn't done by the hand of a master filmmaker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6_0tpqg3ZE