Oh this should be fun.

I've never done one of those "fixed that for ya" posts, but here goes:

submitterWhen Barack Obama changes his positions, he's "opening the door to altering" his stance. When McCain changes his position opens his mouth, he's PANCAKES

In before WHARRGARBL!

So vote for McCain if you like him. Better yet, just look at the letters next to the names and vote that way... like you do anyway.

Yeah, Alzheimers is a biatch.

Can someone explain the "Pancakes" to me real quick. By the time I first saw it, it was being over-used in every, way, shape, and form.

Part of the difference might be that Obama says things like "I'm rethinking my position" while McCain simply changes his mind by making demonstrably false statements like "I never said that!".

It's so awesome how using "PANCAKES!" in reference to McCain has spawned not one but TWO memes.

Bonkthat_Again:Can someone explain the "Pancakes" to me real quick. By the time I first saw it, it was being over-used in every, way, shape, and form.

I think it's a reference to this old Onion article...

Is this the earliest published article to use the "McCain pancakes" phrase?

SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 2007 -- Ohio GOP Straw Poll: Rudy Wins, McCain Pancakes

There's a difference between having a nuanced position and doing a complete 180. Unfortunately for Obama, nuanced positions don't get a good airing in a world of soundbites.

I can't wait until the grownups win out over you idiotic younglings. Every generation deserves to be emotionally destroyed by the one before it.

Obama is in a constant state of change. He's like the quantum string of politics. Nobody observe him... he might change.

Diogenes:There's a difference between having a nuanced position and doing a complete 180. Unfortunately for Obama, nuanced positions don't get a good airing in a world of soundbites.

Right. When Obama is forced to actually reconcile the sheer impracticality his "Out of Iraq NOW!" strategy is--it's "nuanced."

I guess the idea that he sold you a bill of goods on Iraq that he never had any actual intent on making good on--that never occurs to the Obama supporters, does it?

BravadoGT:Right. When Obama is forced to actually reconcile the sheer impracticality his "Out of Iraq NOW!" strategy is--it's "nuanced."

I guess the idea that he sold you a bill of goods on Iraq that he never had any actual intent on making good on--that never occurs to the Obama supporters, does it?

I think you're putting overstated words on Iraq in Obama's mouth, for one. Secondly, I guess it's a good thing I'm not a one single issue voter. And I'll gladly take Obama's reconciled position over McCain's endless war position.

BravadoGT:I guess the idea that he sold you a bill of goods on Iraq that he never had any actual intent on making good on--that never occurs to the Obama supporters, does it?

It seemed that most of the Democratic candidates promised immediate withdrawls with different time tables. I'm not so sure the majority of the primary voters thought it really was a good idea anyway and actually paid little attention to it.

I think everyone is a little numb to the goings on in Iraq now because it's been such a clusterf*ck for so long that we just have to *trust* the people in charge not to fark it up anymore than it already is.

Diogenes:I think you're putting overstated words on Iraq in Obama's mouth, for one.

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

When Barack Obama changes his positions, he's "opening the door to altering" his stance.


Approves.

Diogenes:I think you're putting overstated words on Iraq in Obama's mouth, for one. Secondly, I guess it's a good thing I'm not a one single issue voter. And I'll gladly take Obama's reconciled position over McCain's endless war position.

Talk about putting overstated words in someones mouth! McCain said he would stay in Iraq for a hundred years if the troops were as safe as they are in Germany.

There is no endless war position.

Diogenes:BravadoGT:Right. When Obama is forced to actually reconcile the sheer impracticality his "Out of Iraq NOW!" strategy is--it's "nuanced."

I guess the idea that he sold you a bill of goods on Iraq that he never had any actual intent on making good on--that never occurs to the Obama supporters, does it?

I think you're putting overstated words on Iraq in Obama's mouth, for one. Secondly, I guess it's a good thing I'm not a one single issue voter. And I'll gladly take Obama's reconciled position over McCain's endless war position.

"Endless war position?" You're just really wanting to show your hand with that one, aren't you? No chance of you being mistaken for an fair-minded critic now...

The Stealth Hippopotamus:There is no endless war position.

Oh really? Just when does McCain say he will take the troops out? "When the situation on the ground warrants it" And what if the situation in Iraq never warrants it?

Nestea Plunge:BravadoGT:

I guess the idea that he sold you a bill of goods on Iraq

That's an odd way to put it seeing how the whole Iraq debacle is based on bullshiat, lies and misinterpretation of cherry picked "facts".

So what then--Obama's strategy should also follow that model? Two wrongs make a right?

And if he had steadfastedly stuck to the 16 month plan, without alteration, the exact same people would be in here grilling him for being an uncomprimising ideologist who want's to unmake everything we've done in Iraq... in fact, if he goes and decides to stay with the 1.5 year withdraw they will go back to that very message.

BravadoGT:"Endless war position?" You're just really wanting to show your hand with that one, aren't you? No chance of you being mistaken for an fair-minded critic now...

Yes, I was overstating as a counter to your overstatement. I know exactly what McCain meant about the 100 years thing. But it's a terribly flawed analogy to our past deployments and stationing. And if you can't hear the sabers rattling when McCain speaks then you're deaf.

Dancin_In_Anson:Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

Sounds like an orderly withdrawal to me.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:Talk about putting overstated words in someones mouth! McCain said he would stay in Iraq for a hundred years if the troops were as safe as they are in Germany.

How long is he willing to stay before reaching a Germany-like situation?

Nestea Plunge:No 2 lefts make a right, but I can't see Obama being able to do anything short term about Iraq.

you mean 3?

Nestea Plunge:BravadoGT:Nestea Plunge:BravadoGT:

I guess the idea that he sold you a bill of goods on Iraq

That's an odd way to put it seeing how the whole Iraq debacle is based on bullshiat, lies and misinterpretation of cherry picked "facts".

So what then--Obama's strategy should also follow that model? Two wrongs make a right?

No 2 lefts make a right, but I can't see Obama being able to do anything short term about Iraq.

Then why has he campaigned on a pledge to do otherwise? Even the sympathetic editors at the Washington Post wonder about that...

superbeerchan:When Barack Obama changes his positions, he's "opening the door to altering" his stance.


Approves.


FTW

Lionel Mandrake:How long is he willing to stay before reaching a Germany-like situation?

As long as it takes. And no it will not take forever. Things are getting better and better everyday. We're winning. That may make you a little sad, but your feelings about it do not can the facts.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:Lionel Mandrake:How long is he willing to stay before reaching a Germany-like situation?

As long as it takes. And no it will not take forever. Things are getting better and better everyday. We're winning. That may make you a little sad, but your feelings about it do not can the facts.

As long as it takes? Even if it takes 100 years? Yeah, I can see how his position has been totally distorted.

And stop with the infantile "we're winning and that makes you sad" BS. I don't care to get into an argument over whether we are or are not winning, but your "you want America to lose" BS is truly fkn pathetic.

Lionel Mandrake:As long as it takes? Even if it takes 100 years? Yeah, I can see how his position has been totally distorted.

It's not going to take a hundred years. You really think it's going to take 3-4 generations before the people of Iraq notice that it's al qaeda bombing the markets and it's the Americans trying to stop them?!?

And stop with the infantile "we're winning and that makes you sad" BS. I don't care to get into an argument over whether we are or are not winning, but your "you want America to lose" BS is truly fkn pathetic.

Do I think that you want America to lose altogether? No, no I don't. Do I believe that you are enough of a kool-aid drinker to want the war to go badly until someone else can take credit for turning it around? Yep. I'm not saying you want American troops dead. I couldn't make myself believe that of any farker. But I think that news of the Iraq Government infighting fills you with glee as you fire up your computer to log on to fark and shout "I told you so".

BravadoGT:Nestea Plunge:BravadoGT:Nestea Plunge:BravadoGT:

I guess the idea that he sold you a bill of goods on Iraq

That's an odd way to put it seeing how the whole Iraq debacle is based on bullshiat, lies and misinterpretation of cherry picked "facts".

So what then--Obama's strategy should also follow that model? Two wrongs make a right?

No 2 lefts make a right, but I can't see Obama being able to do anything short term about Iraq.

Then why has he campaigned on a pledge to do otherwise? Even the sympathetic editors at the Washington Post wonder about that...

You realize that the part of his website that you quoted, the orderly 16-month-long withdrawal from Iraq has been there since the campaign started and in no way constitutes an immediate precipitous withdrawal AND is the same position he has always held?

The Stealth Hippopotamus:As long as it takes.


Doesn't "as long as it takes until we GET to a point were they stop bombing us....and then 100 years after that like in Germany or Japan" kinda obliviate all the shouts of "b-b-b-but the CONTEXT...!" coming from McCain's defenders?

You really think it's going to take 3-4 generations before the people of Iraq notice that it's al qaeda bombing the markets and it's the Americans trying to stop them?!?


There's been a civil war in Lebanon for as long as I can remember.

There's been violent conflict in Colombia for 50 years now.

Afghanistan has been in turmoil since the Soviets.

Assuming "everyone grows tired of violence eventually" as the solution to Iraq is a pretty piss-poor assumption, imo.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:But I think that news of the Iraq Government infighting fills you with glee as you fire up your computer to log on to fark and shout "I told you so".

WMDs
Saddam's ties to Al Qaeda
Saddam's ties to 9/11
Six days...six weeks....definitely not six months.
Flowers and candies.
Greeted as liberators.
Oil will pay for the reconstruction.
Last throes.
Corner being turned.
Nobody could have predicted Sunni/Shiite sectarian violence.

Trust me, pal. My "I told you so" button is long since worn down to a useless nub.

Bill_Wick's_Friend:There's been a civil war in Lebanon for as long as I can remember.

There's been violent conflict in Colombia for 50 years now.

Afghanistan has been in turmoil since the Soviets.

Assuming "everyone grows tired of violence eventually" as the solution to Iraq is a pretty piss-poor assumption, imo.

Yeah and there are people chopping each other up in Africa. So? Not one of these example has anything to do with the United States military. We either win it or forget it very quickly. This will all be resolved for better or worst in the next 5 years. I would like to see someone in office that will do everything in his power to make sure it is better then worst. Promising to begin withdraws on day one of you term is not the way to plan for victory.

Obama has switched his positions more often than McCain. It's a reality.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:Yeah and there are people chopping each other up in Africa. So? Not one of these example has anything to do with the United States military.

SO?

Your point was that "sooner or later the people will realize that sectarian violence is a bad thing and they'll kick out all the murderers in their midsts".

Sounds only slightly more pollyanaish than "flowers and candies" and "greeted as liberators". In light of the fact that there are plenty of conflicts going on around the world in which the people clearly do NOT get sick of murdering each other I think it's clear that you're reaching for a faint hope.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:But I think that news of the Iraq Government infighting fills you with glee as you fire up your computer to log on to fark and shout "I told you so".

Do I think you are wrong about that? Yes.
Do I think that going into Iraq was wrong? FARK YES.
Do I think that leaving Iraq ASAFP is a good idea? Not necessarily.
Do I think that that Obama is better suited to decide than McCain? FARK YES.

I used to like McCain. A LOT. In fact, someone like you might even think that I was a McCain "kool aid" drinker at one point. But he has pussed-out, flip-flopped, and reversed on everything I once liked about him. Eventually, Obama might do the same, but as it stands, it's more that McCain has convinced me NOT to support him than Obama has convinced me vote for him.

Bush is the worst President ever in my opinion, and McCain has made a habit of adopting his policies and positions in a desperate attempt to win...and he has universally moved from positions I admire (and often agree with) to positions I can neither agree with nor admire.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:Not one of these example has anything to do with the United States military.

Except Lebanon.

(that coward cut-n-runner Reagan, eh? Can you imagine how glorious it would be if a few thousand more Marines had been killed in Lebanon? They might be there today still, trying to get between Syrian and Iranian-backed militias! Glorious! Heroic! 100 years! Maybe a thousand! Right?)

McCainDemocrat:Obama has switched his positions more often than McCain. It's a reality.

Just because you say it over and over and over does not make it any more real. It just makes you sad.

Changing one's mind is a sign of weakness. Its a proven fact.

McCainDemocrat:Obama has switched his positions more often than McCain. It's a reality.

Line 'em up, troll...show us all the times Obama flip-flopped, and all the times McCain flip-flopped...and let other Farkers respond to your claim.

Do it...I dare you...

I guess this is another one of those statements Obama says that can't be understood by mouth-breathers

McCainDemocrat:Obama has switched his positions more often than McCain. It's alternate reality.

ftfy

Lionel Mandrake:McCainDemocrat:Obama has switched his positions more often than McCain. It's a reality.

Line 'em up, troll...show us all the times Obama flip-flopped, and all the times McCain flip-flopped...and let other Farkers respond to your claim.

Do it...I dare you...

Dude, totally...back your shiat up...I DOUBLE dare you.

McCain's foreign policy has an explosive temper.

Its funny how those against Obama for his war position are most upset that it turns out to lean more towards them.

anyone who didn't see it coming hasn't been paying attention.