A great victory for the Taliban. It is the NATO forces which are claiming 900 prisoners escaped; other sources have put the number at 1200 to 1400.

The incompetence of the Canadian commander of the prison should get him sacked; I cannot believe that a military man would refuse to go after inmates that had escaped, and waited for support. It took a lot of effort to round those people up, they would be at their weakest point right after the escape, but the guy pulled a civil service "it's not my job". IMHO, it shouldn't be his job another day.

It is said that a lot of these escapees fought against American and Afghani national troops about a week later in Arghandab, where they were driven back across the border into their safe haven in Pakistan. Sure wish we could get someone with some backbone to
take Pakistani foreign policy out of Cheney's office and give our guys a fighting chance to win by taking the fight to them.

They demanded to know why Canadian soldiers watched the prisoners run away and failed to chase them.

They would have to chase them? Weird. When I worked at a prison and if someone attempted to escape, we were told to shoot them, not run after them.

Guard towers? How are we supposed to milk the 10000% markup from our no bid contract with just simple carpentry? Nope, guard towers just won't cut it! Sure, $200 hammers are great and all, but it pales in comparison to the $5000 fluorescent light bulb, not to mention $300 per cubic foot of special landscaping sand (it's like regular sand, but in a bag with a $300 price tag).

oops

/amateurs

so that's where Osama was hiding? and we kept wondering...

Headline:but just didn't get around to building guard towers

FTFA:In the year before the prison break, the Canadians paid for new septic systems, solar-powered lighting, new doors and windows, an infirmary, landscaping, guard towers and washroom facilities, among other improvements

Gunfire came from only one of five guard towers.

Four guards in the gate towers were killed instantly.


I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE ANYMORE

/FWIW, My prison was max/death row and had no guard towers.

FTA: "The commander continued: 'We're not policing this country, right? It's not our role to police this country. Our role is to stand behind our Afghan partners and assist them.'"

And a fine job you're doing.

Actually, he does have a good point. The article goes on to say that the Afghan troops stationed in the area had no desire to go after the escapees because they didn't feel up to the task. And the Canadians could easily have marched straight to their deaths if they weren't prepared for combat operations (which the pretty obviously weren't).

I'm glad that we have 180,000 men and women in Iraq.

Aren't you guys glad that we have 180,000 men and women in Iraq?

I'm telling you right now, Prisons (international and domestic) are not prepared to withstand an outside attack.

If I'm designing a prison for use in Afghanistan and I cannot afford to hire enough perimeter guards to withstand days of outside attacks... it is going to be wired for self destruction.. and equiped with a self-collapsing, dead-end escape tunnel for my staff. If shiat hits the fan, staff runs down tunnel and self destruct...everyone wipes and we dig them out later...

Rethorn:I'm glad that we have 180,000 men and women in Iraq.

Aren't you guys glad that we have 180,000 men and women in Iraq?

but, they're watching them flee over there, so we don't have to...

oh screw it, this is disappointing.

Reading that almost puts a smile on your face in a "aw shucks, them Taliban boys is at it again" sort of way.

Well I for one am glad that we have allocated massive amounts of tax dollars to correct this problem. Remember, we spend it there so we don't have to spend it here.

Remember the surge was working. So now because of this we will have to surge even more. ? Since we have a department of defense, why doesn't every country have a department of peace. They get the first shot at everything. If they fail, then the warmongers can step in.

varmitydog:The incompetence of the Canadian commander of the prison should get him sacked

The prison's run by Afghans, not Canadians.

Relatively Obscure:I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE ANYMORE

Ya, I'm at the point now where if I read something in a Fark headline, my first instinct is to trust that the exact opposite is true.

FTFA: "You can ask yourself the rhetorical question, what if we find 100 fugitives in the fields?" Gen. Thompson said. "What is ISAF's duty in that circumstance? Is it to go arrest people?

A Rhetorical Question?

SHOOT THEM GODDAMMIT!!!!!!

/so damn pissed about this I can hardly see

Brigadier-General Denis Thompson, the top Canadian commander in Kandahar, confirmed that NATO surveillance tracked the fugitives as they fled. But he said it's not Canada's job as part of the International Security Assistance Force to hunt down escaped prisoners.



"That's not my job"

900 got free? Are we even in that farking country any more? Was our entire millitary passed out drunk?

orclover:900 got free? Are we even in that farking country any more? Was our entire millitary passed out drunk?

It's NATO run. Which means lots of countries get control over specific regions. This one was under Canadian control.

orclover:900 got free? Are we even in that farking country any more? Was our entire millitary passed out drunk?

FTFA: "I thought that there would be big fighting, aerial bombardments, and many Taliban would be killed some arrested," said a Taliban fighter, now enjoying freedom with his family in Kandahar city. "But when we reached our safe houses we were surprised, because there was no fighting, nothing." He added: "I didn't think we would succeed like we did."



This is why President Bush has failed. Why NATO is there not doing the job that the U.S. is supposed to be doing is beyond me.

I think that Afghanistan is hopeless. We had a very small window where we could have routed all of the Taliban and fixed that nation, but that window was missed because of the redirection of resources to invade and occupy Iraq.

Maybe we should just be honest from now on about our response and responsiblity in this day and age. We are only good at blowing shiat up, so that is all we will do if we are forced to respond. We suck at rebuilding what we blow up, so from now on we'll be skipping that part.

Befuddled:I think that Afghanistan is hopeless. We had a very small window where we could have routed all of the Taliban and fixed that nation, but that window was missed because of the redirection of resources to invade and occupy Iraq.

Maybe we should just be honest from now on about our response and responsiblity in this day and age. We are only good at blowing shiat up, so that is all we will do if we are forced to respond. We suck at rebuilding what we blow up, so from now on we'll be skipping that part.

You are probably right. We could always pull a USSR on them...

Relatively Obscure:They demanded to know why Canadian soldiers watched the prisoners run away and failed to chase them.

They would have to chase them? Weird. When I worked at a prison and if someone attempted to escape, we were told to shoot them, not run after them.

There are so many fingers being pointed in so many directions, I'm wondering that too. WERE the guards told what to do in case prisoners tried to escape? WERE there signs on the walls in Pashtun that said "NO WARNING SHOTS FIRED"? Because obviously, the prisoners did not fear any shots from the walls when they ran for the breached gates.

In an American, and presumably Canadian, prison, one shot from the walls could have stopped an escape in its tracks, truck bomb or not, because prison tower guards are authorized to SHOOT TO KILL; they know it and the prisoners know it, and the guards are not sanctioned for shooting prisoners in the back (unlike cops). So what exactly were these guards' orders in Afghanistan when that truck smashed into the gate? Being they were soldiers as well as guarding prisoners, I'm a bit alarmed for Canada that they stood by and did nothing.

Maybe we should just be honest from now on about our response and responsiblity in this day and age. We are only good at blowing shiat up, so that is all we will do if we are forced to respond. We suck at rebuilding what we blow up, so from now on we'll be skipping that part.

I sometimes wonder what would of happened if we simply circled their largest cities, prevented people from leaving and told Iraq that they were going to either:

A) Let UN weapon inspectors have complete access.

or

B) Face shock-and-awe monthly, until A is agreed upon.

Would the number of terrorists sky-rocket? Or could we break them down to the point they were willing to deliver Saddam without us stepping foot in Iraq?

What can you expect from a country that markets round ham as "bacon?"

Neurochemist:Maybe we should just be honest from now on about our response and responsiblity in this day and age. We are only good at blowing shiat up, so that is all we will do if we are forced to respond. We suck at rebuilding what we blow up, so from now on we'll be skipping that part.

I sometimes wonder what would of happened if we simply circled their largest cities, prevented people from leaving and told Iraq that they were going to either:

A) Let UN weapon inspectors have complete access.

or

B) Face shock-and-awe monthly, until A is agreed upon.

Would the number of terrorists sky-rocket? Or could we break them down to the point they were willing to deliver Saddam without us stepping foot in Iraq?

Yeah, well, UN inspectors pretty much had unfettered access at the end so I don't see your point.

oldebayer:What can you expect from a country that markets round ham as "bacon?"

They have a bacon named after them. I think that is a positive.

Gyrfalcon:WERE there signs on the walls in Pashtun that said "NO WARNING SHOTS FIRED"? Because obviously, the prisoners did not fear any shots from the walls when they ran for the breached gates.

"There's only two ways out of this prison. One is in a pine box, and the other is through that big wide open gate over there. Let's consider that gate "Off-Limits" as a favor to me. The patrolling guards have the day off, with it being Yom Kippur and all. Someone wake me when the soup's ready."

/better not be obscure

Sabyen91:Yeah, well, UN inspectors pretty much had unfettered access at the end so I don't see your point.

I guess you are right.. It wasn't "lack of access" that caused the problems with the UN.. Apparently the weapons inspector's problem = Iraq's failure to fully account for the weapons.. So I guess the question is, could seige and bomb produce a more accurate accounting? Or were our standards set far too high? Or...even if Iraq was jerking us around... should we have really been considering going to war when the UN inspectors damn sure had zero proof of WMD?

On December 7, 2002, Iraq filed its 12,000-page weapons declaration with the UN in order to meet requirements for this resolution. The five permanent members of the Security Council received unedited versions of the report, while an edited version was made available for other UN Member States. On December 19, Hans Blix reported before the United Nations and stated in regards to Iraq's December 7 report (unedited version): "During the period 1991-1998, Iraq submitted many declarations called full, final and complete. Regrettably, much in these declarations proved inaccurate or incomplete or was unsupported or contradicted by evidence. In such cases, no confidence can arise that proscribed programmes or items have been eliminated." By March, Blix declared that the December 7 report had not brought any new documentary evidence to light.

Iraq continued to fail to account for substantial chemical and biological stockpiles which UNMOVIC inspectors had confirmed as existing as late as 1998. Iraq claimed that it had disposed of its anthrax stockpiles at a specific site, but UNMOVIC found this impossible to confirm since Iraq had not allowed the destruction to be witnessed by inspectors as required by the pertinent Resolutions. Chemical testing done at the site was unable to show that any anthrax had been destroyed there.

Sounds like the prison all the bleeding hearts over here have been wanting. Tell me, were there daily puppy visitations, bake sales, bingo nights, and shuffleboard tournaments as well?

No, I'm wrong, I think there still were evil guns and bad people (soldiers) in there, so it wasn't what the bleedin' hearts want.

Maybe if we just ask 'em to stay nicely everyone will behave?

/the sarcasm is thick with this one
//but not as thick as the heads of those who really want that
///slashies

Everybody knows you put bunkers filled with three marines and a firebat around chokepoints. Geez.

That's why Canada got the Iranian hostages out.

Despite the current failures, we'll rally.

You?

Seriously? Posed with the question of what to do about 900 escaped prisoners. Who had been imprisoned as enemies of the state?

2-3 Apache attack helicopters. 3-4 rockets for each of them. Problem solved.

kasmel:2-3 Apache attack helicopters battalions. 3-4 rockets for each of them. Problem solved.

FTFM

Gyrfalcon:There are so many fingers being pointed in so many directions, I'm wondering that too. WERE the guards told what to do in case prisoners tried to escape? WERE there signs on the walls in Pashtun that said "NO WARNING SHOTS FIRED"? Because obviously, the prisoners did not fear any shots from the walls when they ran for the breached gates.

In an American, and presumably Canadian, prison, one shot from the walls could have stopped an escape in its tracks, truck bomb or not, because prison tower guards are authorized to SHOOT TO KILL; they know it and the prisoners know it, and the guards are not sanctioned for shooting prisoners in the back (unlike cops). So what exactly were these guards' orders in Afghanistan when that truck smashed into the gate? Being they were soldiers as well as guarding prisoners, I'm a bit alarmed for Canada that they stood by and did nothing.

It's all very weird to me, but I'm guessing that because the Afghanis were largely manning the prison and the Canadians were just overseeing things, that maybe the Canadians were caught with their pants down, so to speak. The commander could have just used any excuse he could think of to save the asses of his own folks, knowing that. That's about the only thing I can speculate. I know I'd have been willing to take a credibility/job/whatever hit for my guys if push came to shove and I just knew they weren't in a position to do anything but get hurt.

Relatively Obscure:It's all very weird to me, but I'm guessing that because the Afghanis were largely manning the prison and the Canadians were just overseeing things, that maybe the Canadians were caught with their pants down, so to speak. The commander could have just used any excuse he could think of to save the asses of his own folks, knowing that. That's about the only thing I can speculate. I know I'd have been willing to take a credibility/job/whatever hit for my guys if push came to shove and I just knew they weren't in a position to do anything but get hurt.

Right. Because in a warzone, the common motto is "well, my guys are a bunch of pussies."

I'm not in any position to judge, but (judging anyway) this guy sounds like he's leading a boy scout troop.

Neurochemist:I sometimes wonder what would of happened if we simply circled their largest cities, prevented people from leaving and told Iraq that they were going to either:

A) Let UN weapon inspectors have complete access.

or

B) Face shock-and-awe monthly, until A is agreed upon.

Would the number of terrorists sky-rocket? Or could we break them down to the point they were willing to deliver Saddam without us stepping foot in Iraq?

Why even go to B?

Shut off water, all food supplies as well as electricity and wait. Eventually, every single person with nothing to hide would come out where we could have easily processed them and then at some point we fumigate the city taking care of the rest.

It's not like siege warfare is something newly thought of.

Jesus, we are like the worst nightmare that ever occurred and we're working against our own interests.

Hell, we could have had Saddam and his family leave without a shot fired three days before the war - but no, we had to go blow things up, kill a few tens of thousands of people who had nothing to do with this mess all to show the world how big our destructive dick is.

Well, at least we succeeded at that mission.

Neurochemist:Sabyen91:Yeah, well, UN inspectors pretty much had unfettered access at the end so I don't see your point.

I guess you are right.. It wasn't "lack of access" that caused the problems with the UN.. Apparently the weapons inspector's problem = Iraq's failure to fully account for the weapons.. So I guess the question is, could seige and bomb produce a more accurate accounting? Or were our standards set far too high? Or...even if Iraq was jerking us around... should we have really been considering going to war when the UN inspectors damn sure had zero proof of WMD?

On December 7, 2002, Iraq filed its 12,000-page weapons declaration with the UN in order to meet requirements for this resolution. The five permanent members of the Security Council received unedited versions of the report, while an edited version was made available for other UN Member States. On December 19, Hans Blix reported before the United Nations and stated in regards to Iraq's December 7 report (unedited version): "During the period 1991-1998, Iraq submitted many declarations called full, final and complete. Regrettably, much in these declarations proved inaccurate or incomplete or was unsupported or contradicted by evidence. In such cases, no confidence can arise that proscribed programmes or items have been eliminated." By March, Blix declared that the December 7 report had not brought any new documentary evidence to light.

Iraq continued to fail to account for substantial chemical and biological stockpiles which UNMOVIC inspectors had confirmed as existing as late as 1998. Iraq claimed that it had disposed of its anthrax stockpiles at a specific site, but UNMOVIC found this impossible to confirm since Iraq had not allowed the destruction to be witnessed by inspectors as required by the pertinent Resolutions. Chemical testing done at the site was unable to show that any anthrax had been destroyed there.

And by 2001 the weapon inspectors were thoroughly convinced that nothing of any real value remained.
Hans Blix was saying that very clearly - but that didn't dissuade us, George Bush had already decided.
And we will continue to pay for that shortsightedness for the rest of our lives.

We handed the reigns of the most powerful force on the planet to a guy who bases his decisions on "gut feel" without ever being concerned with "facts" - and we are getting exactly what we would expect from our decision.

While terrorists attacks are something we should be very concerned about, the damage to our economy coupled with the terrorists understanding how vulnerable we are to changes in the price of oil is going to cost us more than any other three factors you can name.

sarcastrophe:Right. Because in a warzone, the common motto is "well, my guys are a bunch of pussies."

I'm not in any position to judge, but (judging anyway) this guy sounds like he's leading a boy scout troop.

No, I understand, but if your guys--for whatever reason--just aren't ready, they aren't ready. I dunno. I'm just trying to look at it from different perspectives to see if I can make some sense out of it.

gunna have to home and listen to it now.

Relatively Obscure, helix400: The information about the guard towers is in the captioning of the enlarged picture in TFA.

5. Guard towers on each corner of the prison walls have been recently constructed with Canadian funding but are unfinished. Guards return fire against the Taliban only from the southwest tower.

A Shortage Of Troops in Afghanistan
Iraq War Limits U.S. Options, Says Chairman of Joint Chiefs

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 3, 2008; Page A01

The nation's top military officer said yesterday that more U.S. troops are needed in Afghanistan to tamp down an increasingly violent insurgency, but that the Pentagon does not have sufficient forces to send because they are committed to the war in Iraq...



Link (new window)

this admin farked up so bad it's hard to believe.
what really bothers me is that so many people cheered while they did it.

I can't even understand someone who would defend this admin and their strategy since 9/11.

Befuddled:I think that Afghanistan is hopeless. We had a very small window where we could have routed all of the Taliban and fixed that nation, but that window was missed because of the redirection of resources to invade and occupy Iraq.

Maybe we should just be honest from now on about our response and responsiblity in this day and age. We are only good at blowing shiat up, so that is all we will do if we are forced to respond. We suck at rebuilding what we blow up, so from now on we'll be skipping that part.

Afghanistan is a mess and has been since the time of Alexander the Great. There was never a time when it was going to be "fixed". There are no "Afghan" people -- just a collection of tribes within some arbitrary boundries. Just as there are no "Iraqi" people. So that one has always been a lost cause as well.

But I fully agree with you on your second point: Using the military to "nation build" is like using a hammer to cut wood.

Inside the prison, we have to keep the Talibans alive. Outside  the  prison,  a  different  set  of  rules  apply.

varmitydog:Relatively Obscure, helix400: The information about the guard towers is in the captioning of the enlarged picture in TFA.

5. Guard towers on each corner of the prison walls have been recently constructed with Canadian funding but are unfinished. Guards return fire against the Taliban only from the southwest tower.

Welp, boy is my face red. Thanks for the clarification!