The vegans win! Without corn to help feed the livestock at a reasonable price, the price of meat goes up as well. Not only can your dog not have steak, you are fiscally prohibited from steak as well.

Good job PETA! Ethanol is proof that the government goes off half-cocked on non-sensical plans because of lobbyists. How did Obama vote on the Farm Bill? What about McCain? What did Hillary have to say about it?

Any idiot that voted for turning the food supply into auto fuel needs to be voted out.

seriously food != fuel

How hard is the equation to understand

The corn used to make ethanol is not the corn we eat (unless you count the one percent or so we use for corn syrup and cereal grain). "Ethanol corn" is "feed corn." That is, it's used for animal feed. Furthermore, the part of the corn used for ethanol production is not even the part of the corn used for animal feed. Beyond that, most of Europe and Africa won't touch our corn anyway as they fear the genetically modified stuff we grow en masse.

sarcastrophe:Any idiot that voted for turning the food supply into auto fuel needs to be voted out.

I seem to remember dozens of specials, Willie Nelson testimonials, and zillions of "E-85" is green commercials just a few years back. Pretty much everyone was for it, until the reality kicked in.

This country (hell the world even) is super short sighted. I can't wait until more people drive electric cars and the grid won't be prepared for it because we haven't added enough capacity.

Gecko Gingrich:The corn used to make ethanol is not the corn we eat (unless you count the one percent or so we use for corn syrup and cereal grain). "Ethanol corn" is "feed corn." That is, it's used for animal feed. Furthermore, the part of the corn used for ethanol production is not even the part of the corn used for animal feed. Beyond that, most of Europe and Africa won't touch our corn anyway as they fear the genetically modified stuff we grow en masse.

If corn is grown for ethanol rather than food is irrelevant. It removes land used to grow food. Sugar is a much better source of ethanol, but sugar cane doesn't grow well in the US climate. We'd have to import sugar to make that fuel, and that does nothing to get us off foreign independence for energy. The whole ethanol thing (from a US standpoint) is a scam.

sarcastrophe:We'd have to import sugar to make that fuel, and that does nothing to get us off foreign independence for energy.

Can't we just mandate that Puerto Rico do it? Granted it's a speck of dust compared to Brazil.

/gotta be better than switchgrass

azmoviez:Can't we just mandate that Puerto Rico do it? Granted it's a speck of dust compared to Brazil.

/gotta be better than switchgrass

They don't vote.

sarcastrophe:They don't vote.

Precisely. Can't we just force them like with that Navy bombing range? Or use some chain gang labor out at Guantanamo?

Of course that would probably have the (horrible) unintended consequence of making rum more expensive... nevermind, scratch that.

This is the exact same idiocy that leads jackasses to claim that increased drilling will have no effect on oil prices.

Gecko Gingrich:The corn used to make ethanol is not the corn we eat (unless you count the one percent or so we use for corn syrup and cereal grain). "Ethanol corn" is "feed corn.

yeah, but it diverts that feed corn away from livestock, which increases their cost. and it takes up land we could use to grow people corn

sarcastrophe:If corn is grown for ethanol rather than food is irrelevant.

I was addressing the headline.

Sugar is a much better source of ethanol, but sugar cane doesn't grow well in the US climate. We'd have to import sugar to make that fuel, and that does nothing to get us off foreign independence for energy.

What do you think they use from the corn (or anything) to make ethanol? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with "booger." BTW, switchgrass (a particularly hardy and easy to grow native North American species) is much better than sugarcane.

The whole ethanol thing (from a US standpoint) is a scam.

With that, I agree.

albo:yeah, but it diverts that feed corn away from livestock, which increases their cost. and it takes up land we could use to grow people corn

I, and the article are talking about now. You're talking about the future.

I'll repeat this, as you seemed to have stopped reading before you got to it:

Furthermore, the part of the corn used for ethanol production is not even the part of the corn used for animal feed.

Gecko Gingrich:The corn used to make ethanol is not the corn we eat (unless you count the one percent or so we use for corn syrup and cereal grain). "Ethanol corn" is "feed corn." That is, it's used for animal feed.

Um, that is the point. It drives up the cost for all meat and dairy products. Yes they do use corn that would have been used for animal feed, not "some other part of the corn".

I'd be more inclined to blame the higher cost of shipping for the rise in food prices.

Clearly we need to give these guys more subsidies, since tying in the price of food to the price of oil is BRILLIANT

Now, if you excuse me, I've got to eat some Corn Flake. It used to be Corn Flakes, but the supply has been reduced due to prices.

Crosshair:Um, that is the point. It drives up the cost for all meat and dairy products. Yes they do use corn that would have been used for animal feed, not "some other part of the corn".

Ethanol uses the starch (of the feed corn). The protein and oil (of the feed corn) get used for feed.

I don't trust any group or web site with "truth" in its title.

Gecko Gingrich:
What do you think they use from the corn (or anything) to make ethanol? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with "booger." BTW, switchgrass (a particularly hardy and easy to grow native North American species) is much better than sugarcane.

Gecko Gingrich:
Ethanol uses the starch (of the feed corn). The protein and oil (of the feed corn) get used for feed.

Starch rhymes with booger?

azmoviez:This country (hell the world even) is super short sighted. I can't wait until more people drive electric cars and the grid won't be prepared for it because we haven't added enough capacity.

Considering it takes 4-10 years to get a power plant up and running, we need to use a little foresight and planning if we want to add capacity.

ZAZ:I don't trust any group or web site with "truth" in its title.

These people seem to be pretty right on: Truth in 2008 (new window)

Sooner or later our population growth was going to put a run on resources. Better now than when the scarcity would lead irreversibly to a mass population correction.

of the 40% increase in food prices we have seen worldwide, only 3% of it is attributable to ethanol production. The rest is due to poor wheat crops the world round (particularly Australia), increased meat consumption in India and China, export restrictions imposed by rice producing nations, and the biggest factor: expensive oil.

sarcastrophe:ZAZ:I don't trust any group or web site with "truth" in its title.

These people seem to be pretty right on: Truth in 2008 (new window)

Unless of course you deny there's a $9.4 trillion debt and we have $56 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

Ok...I'm going to talk out of my ass here but try to stay with me....

1. "Land that would be used for food/feed corn" I don't know how many of you people live outside of the city but I don't think you all realize just how much land isn't being used for farming that could be used.

2. This is really just getting started. I'd think that after a year or farmers will use more vacant ground to grow more corn since the higher price will make it worth while. Then things will stabalize. That whole "market correction" thing.

3. Did I mention I'm talking out of my ass and someone may easily prove me wrong?

I guess ill I'm saying is we can easily just grow more corn. Which is kind of the idea.

How much effect will/does the flooding in Iowa have on the corn industry, considering that Iowa is the highest producer of corn?

Gecko Gingrich 2008-07-02 07:01:33 PM The corn used to make ethanol is not the corn we eat (unless you count the one percent or so we use for corn syrup and cereal grain). "Ethanol corn" is "feed corn." That is, it's used for animal feed. Furthermore, the part of the corn used for ethanol production is not even the part of the corn used for animal feed. Beyond that, most of Europe and Africa won't touch our corn anyway as they fear the genetically modified stuff we grow en masse.
---------------------

You know... for someone with Gingrich in their name, you sure aren't an idiot. +1 to you!

Start long rant:
1) The Ethanol industry isn't responsible for its subsidies, the gov't is. The CORN industry was in backruptcy and needed the subsidies just a few years back. With the shiatty dollar and droughts/floods being widespread, corn prices have shot through the roof. Corn industry is now making a shiat LOAD.

2) The Ethanol industry is micro-freaking-scopic. At least corn-wise. It has yet to crack 1% and that's including ALL forms of ethanol.

3) Just to clear it up... NOT ALL ETHANOL IS BAD.

4) We pay subsidies to oil companies too and they make shiat-loads, why do conservative-morons and subby only bark on the ethanol? Both subsidies right now are awful. The oil company subsidies were started in the late 80s when the price of oil was so low the oil companies were losing money. Which prompted subsidies from Bush's father. Both subsidies were started at least in somewhat good heart but both need to stop.

KramericaWallet:Starch rhymes with booger?

Starch that is converted to sugar does.

sarcastrophe:The vegans win! Without corn to help feed the livestock at a reasonable price, the price of meat goes up as well. Not only can your dog not have steak, you are fiscally prohibited from steak as well.

Good job PETA! Ethanol is proof that the government goes off half-cocked on non-sensical plans because of lobbyists. How did Obama vote on the Farm Bill? What about McCain? What did Hillary have to say about it?

Any idiot that voted for turning the food supply into auto fuel needs to be voted out.

This is a good thing. As the price of corn drives up the price of factory farmed meat to the point where it is no longer profitable, good old-fashioned pasture raised cows and chickens will come back into style. I say stop the corn subsidy and instead give the money to the poor to make up the increased cost of food.

Most people know by now that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than we get out of it so that will eventually fizzle out.

jake3988:You know... for someone with Gingrich in their name, you sure aren't an idiot. +1 to you!

Thanks, but I can claim no more than I am regurgitating that which I have read and understood to be true. :)

jake3988:3) Just to clear it up... NOT ALL ETHANOL IS BAD.

Some is actually tasty and enjoyable.

/hic

Some PR flack somewhere is pointing to all these hits on this website and proudly declaring their campaign to deceive the public to be a success.

hemsk "How much effect will/does the flooding in Iowa have on the corn industry, considering that Iowa is the highest producer of corn?"

I remember hearing on the news that the floods wiped out 10% of the corn crop. I don't recall if that was 10% national or 10% of Iowa, but I'm inclined to think the former. I also recall that Iowa corn is for feedstock, and a lot of slaughterhouses had to ... liquidate their livestock.

It'll have a pretty big effect.

Froman:This is a good thing. As the price of corn drives up the price of factory farmed meat to the point where it is no longer profitable, good old-fashioned pasture raised cows and chickens will come back into style. I say stop the corn subsidy and instead give the money to the poor to make up the increased cost of food.

Most people know by now that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than we get out of it so that will eventually fizzle out.

You can't be that naïve. That type of beef is pretty much forbidden by regulations. You can't have a grain farm and a slaugtherhouse on the same land. You have to send your cattle out to a licensed processing plant. If you take the beef you sent out back, you can't sell it on the farmer's market, because it's been off the farm.

Bicycle, Bicycle....

I want to ride my bicycle,
I want to ride my bike.

I want to ride my bicycle,
I like to ride it where I like...

/just sayin
//If you won't start, share the road at least

There's a lot more going on than the effects of biofuel on the price of corn. The price of fuel for farm equipment has risen, the same as for everyone. The price of fertilizer has nearly doubled from just last year.

The prices of all common/basic commodities are rising, not due to use in biofuel, nor really due to the above, but because those prices have remained well below the historical increases of inflation. (eg. the price for a bushel of wheat in the 1940s wasn't too different from the price in the 1990s [citation needed, though]).

Until relatively recently, it didn't really matter: more inputs meant more outputs; bigger equipment meant more outputs; rinse and repeat. But the soils and our methods have limits. We're now reaching those, the returns are diminishing, and the market is correcting itself in a major, unfortunate way.

log_jammin:1. "Land that would be used for food/feed corn" I don't know how many of you people live outside of the city but I don't think you all realize just how much land isn't being used for farming that could be used.

Again, the law of diminishing returns comes into effect. The most productive land is already paved over by urban sprawl. The next-to-most productive land is already developed. What land is left requires even more inputs (which, as I've said above, have skyrocketed) to produce diminished harvests. What isn't under cultivation now is that way because it's barely agriculturally feasible, and entirely economically infeasible - unless prices rise even more.

/too much time on a tractor thinking about this shiat

sarcastrophe:Froman:This is a good thing. As the price of corn drives up the price of factory farmed meat to the point where it is no longer profitable, good old-fashioned pasture raised cows and chickens will come back into style. I say stop the corn subsidy and instead give the money to the poor to make up the increased cost of food.

Most people know by now that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than we get out of it so that will eventually fizzle out.

You can't be that naïve. That type of beef is pretty much forbidden by regulations. You can't have a grain farm and a slaugtherhouse on the same land. You have to send your cattle out to a licensed processing plant. If you take the beef you sent out back, you can't sell it on the farmer's market, because it's been off the farm.

When consumer demand dictates that ridiculous big business-protecting laws are no longer practical, then things will change. Also I think there's one inaccuracy in your argument - you can't bring it back to the farm to sell, but it can be sold at a "farmers market". There is plenty of grass-fed local beef available at the Union Square market in NYC.

It seemed like you were trying to argue that the only legal way to sell beef is if it comes from a CAFO and fed industrial corn, but this is obviously not true.

The US jumped on the corn ethanol bandwagon like the monorail episode from the Simpsons. With just about same result.

/actually we need to switch to light rail system.
//a monorail sounds kind of cool.
///MONORAIL!

I blame the corn lobby for every massive increase in all commodities, including corn. Because if there's one thing these ridiculous commodity increases have shown us...it's all about supply and demand. Yep. There's nothing bubble-like or speculatory about this at all. Nosiree

/still likes the term "corn lobby".

It is high time all corn subsidies were ended. Selling corn is profitable without them. Ain't gonna happen as long as election season starts in Iowa though.

Rising oil prices as well as the weakening dollar do have far more to do with rising food prices than any other factor. Neither the ethanol production nor the corn subsidies have much at all to do with food production costs.

That doesn't mean that either the subsidies or the ethanol production from corn are good ideas.

The subsidies are absurd because it's throwing tax money at an industry that stands to make more money now than at any point in it's recent history.

The production of ethanol from corn is less than optimal purely based on the fact that there are far more efficient sources of ethanol that could be turned into a burgeoning fuel market in a relatively short period of time (3-5 years) if someone had the money/interest in pursuing it.

The true tragedy of the situation is that the issues with corn based ethanol have tainted the national debate about the feasibility of ethanol as an energy resource.

azmoviez:sarcastrophe:They don't vote.

Precisely. Can't we just force them like with that Navy bombing range? Or use some chain gang labor out at Guantanamo?

Of course that would probably have the (horrible) unintended consequence of making rum more expensive... nevermind, scratch that.


Most liquor in this country is made form corn. The Rum you buy in the liquor store is probably over 90% corn and maybe a little bit of sugar cane for flavor. Same with whiskey, same with vodka.

It's kind of sad, when you think about it.

keiverarrow:seriously food != fuel

How hard is the equation to understand

That's exactly what food is.

Most people know by now that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than we get out of it so that will eventually fizzle out-Froman

Another idiot jumps into the fray unarmed with the truth. Even with the low efficiencies of using corn for ethanol, for every one unit of energy used to grow, process, ferment and distill corn to ethanol, you get about 1.3 units of energy back out, a NET GAIN. For every 1 unit of energy used to find, drill, process and refine crude oil into gasoline, you get .85 units of energy back out, a NET LOSS. (this according to the DOE) An awful lot of the energy "consumed" in the process of making ethanol is provided free of our charge by the sun, not so with petroleum.

If you want to look at bio-diesel the efficiencies actually get much better, with returns of 3.2 - 4.8 units of energy out for every one unit consumed (depending upon the base crop.)

For all of those complaining about the "subsidies" let me ask you this, how much of the Iraq war do you think had to do with oil? How much is that costing you? Do you ever think to add all the cost accrued by our government just in protecting the foreign oil fields, the foreign refineries, ports and shipping lanes to keep the oil/gas flowing?

Lastly, as was mentioned above, the corn used in the ethanol process isn't and was never intended for use for human consumption in the first place. Most of it in fact, is in varietal forms that are basically inedible by man. This type of corn has traditionally made up anywhere from 60-70% of the entire US corn crop. The corn used to make ethanol actually gets used twice, the starches are drawn out to make the ethanol and the hard part of the grain (known as distiller's grains) are then dried and used as animal feed. So, you actually get to use the same crop twice and get ethanol and animal feed out of it.

Lastly, let me say that corn isn't nearly the best candidate for ethanol conversion (hell, ethanol isn't even nearly as good as butanol as a gasoline replacement.) However, its a damned sight better than continuing to rely exclusively on oil. The ethanol (alternative fuel) industry is in its infancy, each year will see better and better performance and eventually it will fill a rather significant portion of our energy demands. However, if enough people go around full of shiat and full of disinformation, you will be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you don't know enough about ethanol conversion technologies to know that you get a net GAIN in energy, perhaps you would be better served not to comment at all or at least try and educate yourself before doing so.

keiverarrow:



a gallon of gasoline is roughly equal to 130 candy bars, joule for joule. while food doesn't equal fuel there is a constraint equation......

Ethanol is a good idea.

CORN ethanol is sadly, a poor one.

However, we don't campaign for 4 months in states that grow sugar cane or switch-grass, we campaign in states that grown corn.

My answer: Small subsidies for Corn Ethanol, large ones for more energy efficient biomass. Break up the corn lobbies, by getting farmers to grow a more efficient source.

sarcastrophe:Gecko Gingrich:The corn used to make ethanol is not the corn we eat (unless you count the one percent or so we use for corn syrup and cereal grain). "Ethanol corn" is "feed corn." That is, it's used for animal feed. Furthermore, the part of the corn used for ethanol production is not even the part of the corn used for animal feed. Beyond that, most of Europe and Africa won't touch our corn anyway as they fear the genetically modified stuff we grow en masse.

If corn is grown for ethanol rather than food is irrelevant. It removes land used to grow food. Sugar is a much better source of ethanol, but sugar cane doesn't grow well in the US climate. We'd have to import sugar to make that fuel, and that does nothing to get us off foreign independence for energy. The whole ethanol thing (from a US standpoint) is a scam.

You do realize that for years we were paying farmers to let fields lie fallow (i.e. NOT PLANTING ANYTHING)? Suck it up junior.

For years and years (probably including today) the demand for corn, in particular feed corn, has always been less than the available supply.

This is from 2005:

With normal weather this crop season, last year's huge U.S. corn crop will impact grain markets into summer and fall. The large old-crop supplies and disappointing export sales will temper potential old and new-crop corn price strength this spring. Even so, a strong seasonal tendency for higher prices in April and May has the potential to push cash corn prices 8 to 14 cents above mid-January levels. Price strength beyond that probably will require serious weather concerns. Also tempering springtime strength will be concern that farmers may shift acreage from soybeans to corn because of possible Asian soybean rust problems.

In the fall, the sharp increase in carryover stocks has the potential to create shortages of grain storage space again. Also, as marketing loans expire, farmers may increase sales of 2004-crop corn in late August and September, creating pressure on marketing and transportation facilities. Subsoil moisture looks generally good around the Midwest, except for some areas of excessive moisture in the eastern Corn Belt. Weather analysts indicate a mild El Nino is present. That usually is associated with favorable Midwest growing conditions.

Please don't buy the current myth that ethanol production is causing food prices to rise. I know farmers that are finally taking fields out of fallow because they can actually grow something on it and not lose money. I swear, Rush Limbaugh's reach with bullsh*t fact-less spews on this subject are amazing. People act like ethanol is literally taking food out of their mouths which is a special level of ignorance.

I don't think ethanol is the answer, especially not alone, myself. I tend to go more for nuclear, solar, wind, hydro power personally. Then again I'm not too picky.

lawboy87:Lastly, let me say that corn isn't nearly the best candidate for ethanol conversion (hell, ethanol isn't even nearly as good as butanol as a gasoline replacement.)

Butanol is much more like gasoline/diesel, tolerant of water, similar properties such that very little if any modifications need be made to use in a standard engine, but does not have nearly the octane level of ethanol. Which, if engines are optimized for it, provides ethanol with a significant PEV advantage.

Then there's methanol which has even higher octane but is highly corrosive. Not really feasible for consumer usage.

1. How much of the corn production put into ethanol was previously out of production because of market conditions or subsidies not to grow?

2. How much food production has been lost to suburban sprawl, since urban areas grew near some of the most productive farmland?

FTFA

"Did you know:
Ethanol is made from "dent" or yellow "feed" corn. People accuse ethanol of increasing the price of beer, pasta and tortillas, which is curious because none of those products are made from "dent" corn."

Why would anyone grow food grade corn, when growing dent corn is more profitable?