Alberta? That's not even in Americaland, so I have no opinion.

Speaking of Greenpeace, though...as someone living DC, I can't decide which is more annoying:

1. Homeless people begging for change.
2. Overly persistant Greenpeace volunteers begging for signatures

I'm leaning towards #2, since the #1 group at least understands why they are asking for money.

I'm very supportive of ecological causes but Greenpeace and PETA both seem to have their agendas and methods all farked up. Sometimes I think they are just a corporate front to make all other activists look like idiots.

aniktwo: I'm very supportive of ecological causes but Greenpeace and PETA both seem to have their agendas and methods all farked up. Sometimes I think they are just a corporate front to make all other activists look like idiots.

And at least the PETA protesters give us boobies. When's the last time Greenpeacers got naked to save the planet? Lightweights!

TheYeti: Speaking of Greenpeace, though...as someone living DC, I can't decide which is more annoying:

1. Homeless people begging for change.
2. Overly persistant Greenpeace volunteers begging for signatures

I'm leaning towards #2, since the #1 group at least understands why they are asking for money.

I'm with you on that one.

NittLion78: I'm with you on that one.

Ok, good. It's not just me.

While I don't consider myself a Greenpeace supporter, I just want to point out that Dick Cheney himself came to Alberta to see the oilsands development.

So when you keep that kind of company...

Having been to Alberta, I can safety say that a thick coating of oil can only improve the place.

I used to work for Greenpeace in DC. Really.

They were the worst. They wasted all their money on stupid stuff.
They meant well - really nice people - but the execution was poor.

raising awareness about environmental issues is good, being too 'in your face', scaring people and exagerrating while misapropriating funds is bad.

/got to drive the zodiacs.

canyoneer

The one thread that aerial shots of the oilsands strip-mining / settling ponds would be on topic and you don't even bother posting them?

Instead opting for a traffic jam on the other side of the continent?

Some days I wonder if you even know what your own message is.

oldfarthenry: Having been to Alberta, I can safety say that a thick coating of oil can only improve the place.

While I would agree that most of Alberta is kind of ugly and full of people wearing stupid hats, the northern parts are actually kind of nice.

Bonus: they actually make vacationing in the oilsands and refineries sound kind of cool

Funny, I'm planning a trip up there next year.

/industrial history buff

TheYeti: Alberta? That's not even in Americaland, so I have no opinion.

Speaking of Greenpeace, though...as someone living DC, I can't decide which is more annoying:

1. Homeless people begging for change.
2. Overly persistant Greenpeace volunteers begging for signatures

I'm leaning towards #2, since the #1 group at least understands why they are asking for money.

#2 wins. These people are becoming worse than PETA. Bad enough they harass people/groups in the U.S., now they are aiming their sights on our good neighbor to the north. I am going to leave my office light on over the weekend just for them having done this.

El_Swino: oldfarthenry: Having been to Alberta, I can safety say that a thick coating of oil can only improve the place.

While I would agree that most of Alberta is kind of ugly and full of people wearing stupid hats, the northern parts are actually kind of nice.

Bonus: they actually make vacationing in the oilsands and refineries sound kind of cool

Funny, I'm planning a trip up there next year.

/industrial history buff

Go in february, like I did. You'll never forget it.

And I'd argue that the Rockies are the nice parts

Adman12: And at least the PETA protesters give us boobies.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Albertans, all oiled up? Man, I'm soooo there.

World demand for oil is only going up. Alberta will keep on producing that oil and keep raking in billions while doing it. The province has and will continue to have the highest standard of living, lowest unemployment, lowest tax rate, and zero government debt.

The rest of canada and greenpeace can suck it.

Alberta, has around 8 yrs of natural gas supplies left in the ground. Assuming we don't increase the use of it, and oil extraction from tar sands uses a lot of natural gas.

Considering how depended we are on natural gas, that makes me very nervous.

I honestly think we need to build 10 or 12 nuke plants up there.

Nastyboy: World demand for oil is only going up. Alberta will keep on producing that oil and keep raking in billions while doing it. The province has and will continue to have the highest standard of living, lowest unemployment, lowest tax rate, and zero government debt.

The rest of canada and greenpeace can suck it.

This is why everyone loves us!

BigHarv

This is why everyone loves us!

I don't care if they love us. Just that they thank us for supporting their ungrateful asses and be on their way.

rob.d: "Alberta, has around 8 yrs of natural gas supplies left in the ground. Assuming we don't increase the use of it, and oil extraction from tar sands uses a lot of natural gas. Considering how depended we are on natural gas, that makes me very nervous. I honestly think we need to build 10 or 12 nuke plants up there."

Bingo! We have a winnar!

canyoneer: rob.d: "Alberta, has around 8 yrs of natural gas supplies left in the ground. Assuming we don't increase the use of it, and oil extraction from tar sands uses a lot of natural gas. Considering how depended we are on natural gas, that makes me very nervous. I honestly think we need to build 10 or 12 nuke plants up there."

Bingo! We have a winnar!

Now to solve the water problem:
Farmers/Agriculture/Ranchers vs Tar sands

Stelmach will duck out office just before that comes up I figure

As an Albertan who is overpaid in oil money, I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

/lights cigar with $100 bill
//Ok, maybe only a $5 bill, but I soaked it in oil first

Nastyboy: World demand for oil is only going up. Alberta will keep on producing that oil and keep raking in billions while doing it. The province has and will continue to have the highest standard of living, lowest unemployment, lowest tax rate, and zero government debt.

The rest of canada and greenpeace can suck it.

Alberta with oil = $$$$$
Alberta without oil = Newfoundland

Nastyboy: World demand for oil is only going up. Alberta will keep on producing that oil and keep raking in billions while doing it. The province has and will continue to have the highest standard of living, lowest unemployment, lowest tax rate, and zero government debt.

Actually, no. Get your facts straight. Alberta is getting ripped off big time.

$4.30 in royalties per barrel in 2004? Gimme a break, that's less than half of what Alaska makes at $11.30/barrel.

The deal is a complete ripoff and a sham that pretty much only favors the multinational corporations who were sold the rights to that oil for a song. Called a "sweet deal for companies" by the Pembina institute. Even so called "leftist" Venezuela is getting around 30% royalties on their oil and even demanding backpay. Alberta, by comparison, makes about 13% on their oil. The individual agreements with each different oil corporation is not public knowledge and only EnCana has released the information about their oil royalties. Albertans are supposed to assume that between multinational oil corporations and their own interests, the government has crafted a deal in favor of Albertans.

Get real. Albertans and all Canadians are getting completely ripped off in their involvement with multinational oil.

Reaperman

Alberta with oil = $$$$$
Alberta without oil = Newfoundland

Any place in Canada without a natural resource or manufacturing base that makes it economicaly successful = Newfoundland

So? What's your point?

h to the 'ojo: canyoneer: rob.d: "Alberta, has around 8 yrs of natural gas supplies left in the ground. Assuming we don't increase the use of it, and oil extraction from tar sands uses a lot of natural gas. Considering how depended we are on natural gas, that makes me very nervous. I honestly think we need to build 10 or 12 nuke plants up there."

Bingo! We have a winnar!

Now to solve the water problem:
Farmers/Agriculture/Ranchers vs Tar sands

Stelmach will duck out office just before that comes up I figure

If the natural gas runs out, then the oil stops.

Remember, it takes a few years to plan and build a single nuke plant. We're talking 10 or 12, and we have 8 years of natural gas left.

It also seems wasteful to use natural gas in such a manner.

that_other_internet

Get real. Albertans and all Canadians are getting completely ripped off in their involvement with multinational oil.

Of course alberta is getting ripped off. That doesn't change the FACT, that alberta has no provincial debt, the lowest tax rate in canada and is the economic engine that's keeping the rest of canada out of recession while the eastern manufacturing base shuts down.

Even if alberta is getting a raw deal in royalties, it's still doing better than anywhere else in your shiatty excuse for a country.

Nastyboy

I think his point was that Alberta was a half-not province for the first 100 or so years of its existance and now that it has money it's doing its best to get out of equalization payments because of some weird mental trauma Trudeau's stupid NEP caused to the provincal psyche. But I may be wrong.

Also, Newfoundland is fast becoming an economic success story rather than a blackhole thanks to... oil. In a decade or two the Newfies could be funding our lazy central Canadian asses.

Demon of the Fall
I think his point was that Alberta was a half-not province for the first 100 or so years of its existance and now that it has money it's doing its best to get out of equalization payments because of some weird mental trauma Trudeau's stupid NEP caused to the provincal psyche. But I may be wrong.

First 100 years of it's existence? Since alberta didn't exist until 1905, does that mean it was a have-not up until 2005?

Nastyboy: Reaperman

Alberta with oil = $$$$$
Alberta without oil = Newfoundland

Any place in Canada without a natural resource or manufacturing base that makes it economicaly successful = Newfoundland

So? What's your point?

Thanks Demon of the Fall! That just about sums it up.

I agree that it is basically the oil sector that has kept Canada's head above the water. What does really irk is the level of smugness that comes from "some" westerners towards the east. When I hear 'screw the rest of Canada', it makes my blood boil. I would expect to such drivel from someone in Quebec, not out west!

"What does really irk"

What does really irk me

Nastyboy

No one likes a 'dates of entry into confederation' Nazi. Hence the "or so".

Nastyboy:
Even if alberta is getting a raw deal in royalties, it's still doing better than anywhere else in your shiatty excuse for a country.

Whoa, whoa...what's with the name-calling? I mean...let's face it, you're not exactly from magic fairyland, bubba ;)

Reaperman: Nastyboy: Reaperman

Alberta with oil = $$$$$
Alberta without oil = Newfoundland

Any place in Canada without a natural resource or manufacturing base that makes it economicaly successful = Newfoundland

So? What's your point?

Thanks Demon of the Fall! That just about sums it up.

I agree that it is basically the oil sector that has kept Canada's head above the water. What does really irk is the level of smugness that comes from "some" westerners towards the east. When I hear 'screw the rest of Canada', it makes my blood boil. I would expect to such drivel from someone in Quebec, not out west!

Yeah, but to be fair we (the centrals) did our share of messing about with the other provinces back when we were the undisputed economic powerhouses. For instance, the Federal government tried to start a national health care program in 1945 modelled on the British system but Ontario and Quebec cock-blocked it because they didn't want to pay for 'dem dirty prol provinces' or some such. Then Tommy Douglas' CCF's system basically shamed the rest of the country into adopting similar provincial system and the Fed passed legislation to more or less bring every province onto an equal footing.

Canada really needs to get the hell over itself and end this childish regionalistic bs. It's really holding our country back.

Reaperman

I agree that it is basically the oil sector that has kept Canada's head above the water. What does really irk is the level of smugness that comes from "some" westerners towards the east. When I hear 'screw the rest of Canada', it makes my blood boil. I would expect to such drivel from someone in Quebec, not out west!

What really irks me is the level of smugness from "all" easterners towards alberta. They financially benifit from alberta's wealth all the while resenting alberta's success and telling them what horrible canadians they are.

Let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark.

Demon of the Fall: I think his point was that Alberta was a half-not province for the first 100 or so years of its existance and now that it has money it's doing its best to get out of equalization payments because of some weird mental trauma Trudeau's stupid NEP caused to the provincal psyche. But I may be wrong.

Also, Newfoundland is fast becoming an economic success story rather than a blackhole thanks to... oil. In a decade or two the Newfies could be funding our lazy central Canadian asses.

My point was that it would not be realistic for Canadians to accept or share NastyBoy's tortured logic that receiving 50% less in royalties on oil than a 3rd world is "raking in billions". He seems to want to convey extreme profitability while the reality suggests massive losses in potential profits. This cow needs to be milked with more love and a hell of a lot more self-interest.

Screw investment incentives. Even at just under 30% in royalties for oil, every Albertan could afford to clone their own mammoth to ride to work.

rob.d: h to the 'ojo: canyoneer: rob.d: "Alberta, has around 8 yrs of natural gas supplies left in the ground. Assuming we don't increase the use of it, and oil extraction from tar sands uses a lot of natural gas. Considering how depended we are on natural gas, that makes me very nervous. I honestly think we need to build 10 or 12 nuke plants up there."

Bingo! We have a winnar!

Now to solve the water problem:
Farmers/Agriculture/Ranchers vs Tar sands

Stelmach will duck out office just before that comes up I figure

If the natural gas runs out, then the oil stops.

Remember, it takes a few years to plan and build a single nuke plant. We're talking 10 or 12, and we have 8 years of natural gas left.

It also seems wasteful to use natural gas in such a manner.

This. Another thing that always had me wondering...why can't all homes be equipped with natural gas so we can use natural gas stoves, dryers, water heaters? The idea of using natual gas to fuel a generation plant (with less than 100% efficiency obviously) and to then use that electricity to power electric stoves, electric dryers and electric water heaters is odd. While I'm OK with gas-fired vs. coal-fired plants, and realize that there are other electrical needs in the home, I've always wondered why we don't "direct feed" these major appliances with the fuel source.

that_other_internet

Whoa, whoa...what's with the name-calling? I mean...let's face it, you're not exactly from magic fairyland, bubba ;)

I'm sorry. Canada's OK. It'll be even better once it's finished. ;)

that_other_internet

Screw investment incentives. Even at just under 30% in royalties for oil, every Albertan could afford to clone their own mammoth to ride to work.

I want a pterodactyl. Why walk when you can fly?

that_other_internet: Demon of the Fall: I think his point was that Alberta was a half-not province for the first 100 or so years of its existance and now that it has money it's doing its best to get out of equalization payments because of some weird mental trauma Trudeau's stupid NEP caused to the provincal psyche. But I may be wrong.

Also, Newfoundland is fast becoming an economic success story rather than a blackhole thanks to... oil. In a decade or two the Newfies could be funding our lazy central Canadian asses.

My point was that it would not be realistic for Canadians to accept or share NastyBoy's tortured logic that receiving 50% less in royalties on oil than a 3rd world is "raking in billions". He seems to want to convey extreme profitability while the reality suggests massive losses in potential profits. This cow needs to be milked with more love and a hell of a lot more self-interest.

Screw investment incentives. Even at just under 30% in royalties for oil, every Albertan could afford to clone their own mammoth to ride to work.

Not sure if that should be addressed to me because I was talking about ReaperMan's remarks, but reading your above post, that is ridiculous. Why the hell aren't those agreements public? If Newfoundland can make the level of phosphate in a well for the town of Dildo public information, Alberta should definately release that information.

Nastyboy: I'm sorry. Canada's OK. It'll be even better once it's finished. ;)

If by "finished", you mean American, then I think we could afford to hold off on that.

Demon of the Fall: Why the hell aren't those agreements public? If Newfoundland can make the level of phosphate in a well for the town of Dildo public information, Alberta should definately release that information.

It's shady as hell. The one agreement that has been made public, was made public by the corporation itself rather than the provincial government. Around that time, some pigs flew around to help finish the Shakespearean masterpiece started by monkeys that flew out of a leprechaun's bum. EnCana was that corporation...god knows what they're thinking.

Anyhow, here's a good article (new window) if you're interested.

that_other_internet: Demon of the Fall: Why the hell aren't those agreements public? If Newfoundland can make the level of phosphate in a well for the town of Dildo public information, Alberta should definately release that information.

It's shady as hell. The one agreement that has been made public, was made public by the corporation itself rather than the provincial government. Around that time, some pigs flew around to help finish the Shakespearean masterpiece started by monkeys that flew out of a leprechaun's bum. EnCana was that corporation...god knows what they're thinking.

Anyhow, here's a good article (new window) if you're interested.

Wow, that's cold. Thanks for the link.

Actually, that Greenpeace site does make a pretty good case for visiting Alberta. I have always wanted to see a tar-sand operation. Several of my friends recently went down to South America to better constrain the geology around some of the tar-sand deposits down there. The pre-production deposits aren't always that neat, usually just lines on a 3D seismic profile or a shaded region in a cross section. A trip to Alberta would be a great chance to see an actual producing operation.

Those greedy farks are raping the hell out of what was once a beatiful province so badly, when the oils all gone they'll wish they were in Newfoundland.

Kaybeck: Those greedy farks are raping the hell out of what was once a beatiful province so badly, when the oils all gone they'll wish they were in Newfoundland.

But alberta doesn't have any fish, so all they'll have is rocks.

and of course, screech, which may be made from rocks.

Spaghetti Eatin' Goombah: This. Another thing that always had me wondering...why can't all homes be equipped with natural gas so we can use natural gas stoves, dryers, water heaters? The idea of using natual gas to fuel a generation plant (with less than 100% efficiency obviously) and to then use that electricity to power electric stoves, electric dryers and electric water heaters is odd. While I'm OK with gas-fired vs. coal-fired plants, and realize that there are other electrical needs in the home, I've always wondered why we don't "direct feed" these major appliances with the fuel source.

It just depends on where you live and the infrastructure that is in place. Grew up and the midwest and we used natural gas for everything. My home in SC has natural gas for heat and appliances as well. Just depends on what resources are available regionally.

rob.d: If the natural gas runs out, then the oil stops.

Why? Why wouldn't they just switch over their turbines, burners, and heaters to run products from the oil sands like the majority of the worlds refineries without an abundant supply of NG?

Goimir

But alberta doesn't have any fish, so all they'll have is rocks.

NFLD doesn't have any fish either, that's why they all have to come to Alberta to make a living.

When solar and wind power finally become economically viable on a large scale (and that day isn't too far away), how much do you want to bet that Greenpeace will suddenly find fault with them, and start campaigning against them?

The members of Greenpeace don't offer any practical solutions to environmental concerns, they just prefer to whine and biatch all day.

Hell, even their original founder is against them.

constructor5179: rob.d: If the natural gas runs out, then the oil stops.

Why? Why wouldn't they just switch over their turbines, burners, and heaters to run products from the oil sands like the majority of the worlds refineries without an abundant supply of NG?

It's the process needed to separate from tar/bitumen from the tar-sand. Requires a lot of heat. Then the bitumen gets upgraded, and then it shares the refinery process which is what you are familiar with.

It's a double whammy because they are getting that NG for free because it is consumed during the process so no royalties are paid on the NG.

Their plan is to depend more on northern Bcoontil they can get nuke plants running. They are trying to develop some of the world's most frontier fields for that right now (fracturing shale) and paying top dollar for the drilling rights