Can I finish?

Very cool charts. I wish I could make charts like that at my company. The problem is that I don't think we the data accessible in a way that makes charting like that feasible.

Ross Perot is black?

Do yourself a favor. Go out one night, when the moon is full/ Get away from the city, in complete darkness, sit quietly.

If you listen very carefully and the temperature is just right, a slight but omnipresent sucking sound is heard. If you catch just the right moment, you can hear all the laid off manufacturing workers weep.

/he was right

CHARTS

I voted for him twice.

I'd vote for him again.

1992 Ross Perot showed 2008 Ron Paul how it is done.

I wish he hadn't self-destructed in 1992.

The man was right about a lot in 1992, I would certainly listen to what he has to say.

Perot/Clinton '08

That would be funny as hell.

this is not mccain's year. perot. ross.

Somehow Eminem's "Without Me" seems appropriate right now.

GregoryD: Do yourself a favor. Go out one night, when the moon is full/ Get away from the city, in complete darkness, sit quietly.

If you listen very carefully and the temperature is just right, a slight but omnipresent sucking sound is heard. If you catch just the right moment, you can hear all the laid off manufacturing workers weep.

/he was right

Perot might have been right that we were going to lose our manufacturing jobs but it was for all the wrong reasons.

We lost our manufacturing base for a number of reasons, including we had inflated our cost of living to a point where in order to pay a factory worker a decent wage they were no longer competitive with the developing nations.

Did you think that the price of food, cars, clothes and homes could continue to appreciate every year with no ramification?

How much do you think a shirt would cost if it were made in the United States by a company that paid a middle class wage?

I have no problem with a lot of what Perot said, deficit spending especially but to scream that we lost manufacturing jobs due to NAFTA is blaming the wrong damn thing.

Seabon: The man was right about a lot in 1992

Somehow, even when his points against the problems of neo-liberal policies _{(different from liberal}) trade policies came out to be true, and have even turned into talking points for the Dems (See Nafta), the "ooga booga" seems to linger for some reason.

Ross Perot has alot of good ideas, but he just couldn't shake the "crazy" vibe.

/ADM Stockdale was awesome, too bad he couldn't speak on stage
//Al Gore was wearing an ear bud receiver during his debate with Perot
///Ron Paul: also has good ideas, also crazy
////Why can't we get a non-crazy person with good ideas?!

Random Reality Check: we lost manufacturing jobs due to NAFTA

Economic redistribution to the wealthy via neo-liberal treaties like Nafta is a serious problem for us in the middle class.

So are imbalanced standards in worker safety and care. I'm not willing to enjoy the health care and pensions of a Chinese worker.

indenture: shake the "crazy" vibe.

curious thought, that.

I'm by no means a "OMG Perot" supporter, but we really need to shed and strip the power we, ourselves, give to smear attacks. Attack the substance instead. Smear attacks shouldn't be as effective as they are.

Made this earlier.




Never forget that the concept of you, the people, as having sovereignty is a rare phenomena and a blip on human history. The rest of the time, the 95% of us were shoveling shiat. Lots of people fought and died to give you that power.

indenture:
////Why can't we get a non-crazy person with good ideas?!

Because those that appear the sanest are in the center of the crowd.

z_gringo: Very cool charts. I wish I could make charts like that at my company. The problem is that I don't think we the data accessible in a way that makes charting like that feasible.

I don't think we the data either.

I don't mind Ross Perot, and would actually like to see him in some advisory position in a Obama white house. The guy is quite smart about financial issues, and I think he has a lot of good things worth listening too.

But he is just a little too... excitable to be President. As amusing it would be to have a foreign dignitary show up and be greeted by a small leprechaun like man with a high pitched Texan drawl throwing charts at him, I don't think it would be the best face to put forward after the complete and total personality gaff that is Bush.

Much the same reason that I like Nader, view his past history with great respect and admiration, and think he would make a great voice in an administration, but don't want him to be President. You need to exude a certain "something" to be President, and wearing a wrinkled suit that looks like you bought it from Sears and slept in it on your campaign buss for three days while doing your best to look and sound like this at all times:



I'm sorry, but you just don't exude that "Commander-in-Chief" persona. But, then, we've entertained eight years of Curious George ("Oh, he invaded ANOTHER country without understanding the geo-political ramifications or the Holy War he would further provoke. What a little scamp!") so even Sheriff Droopy would be an improvement.

Rant off.

Ross Perot is so rich he can give every American $4 and still have some money left over to buy a Ferrari

Over time, our standard of living, our national security, our standing in the world and the value of our currency could all be threatened.

Has he been asleep for 6 years?

indenture: Why can't we get a non-crazy person with good ideas?!

Because the media won't let them get away with being non-crazy. Think about it for a minute. They will let McCain get away with saying some crazy shiat like 100 years in Iraq or Obama go off on asthmatic kids not getting breathalysers and inhalators, but Ron Paul saying that the North America Union would result in lost constitutional rights or Perot warning us that the national debt is getting too damn big, that's CRAZY.

/And Admiral Stockdale was a great man
//Too bad he'll be remembered by most for his opening line of the VP debate

indenture: ////Why can't we get a non-crazy person with good ideas?!

Because a non-crazy person with good ideas would never get anywhere in a national election. Our system is designed to fail.

Obama should put Ross Perot in his administration as chief economics advisor and Nader as A.G. lol

/jk
or was I?

I've had sex with a dog, twice! The Republicans are putting gonorrhea in my sandwiches; it's true!

/Obscure?

drharmful: Ross Perot is so rich he can give every American $400,000 and still have some money left over to buy a Ferrari

FTFY

I just listened to the man give a speech @ the Gaylord Texan at the International Muse conference.

I would vote him for president in a heartbeat.

/maybe we need a little bit of his crazy in the white house

"We are right at the edge of the cliff," the voice with the unmistakable Texas twang informed me when I called him the other day to find out about this latest venture. "We can't go on spending money we don't have."

Wrong. We can spend money we don't "have", we've been doing it for almost 100 years...
Money as Debt (new window)

The issue is, when what is backing a majority of the "made up" money falls apart, then the whole house of cards falls apart.

ROSS PEROT

geckoone: drharmful: Ross Perot is so rich he can give every American $400,000 and still have some money left over to buy a Ferrari

FTFY

Either you definition of American is more exclusive than mine, or Perot has 120 trillion dollars.

1992 seems like yesterday

I can see there are charts I'll be referring to in future threads. I like this one:

I found this very interesting and informative. I do have to quibble with two things:

1. Inclusion of medicare and social security in with the general budget. Those are taken out of your paycheck separately for a reason -- those are supposed to be treated as trust funds, not as part of the general government spending.

2. Veterans benefits classified as "non-defense" spending.

Finally, it seems clear that the primary place we should be focusing is on controlling health care costs. A single payer universal healthcare system run from a trust fund similar to social security seems like the best option to me.

Zasteva: A single payer universal healthcare system run from a trust fund similar to social security seems like the best option to me.

please don't ever acquire power or influence. thanks.

Shadowknight: e complete and total personality gaff that is Bush.

you're doing it wrong.

/it's gaffe
//and it's wrong anyway
///and you're nowhere near as smart as he is

Intelligence and speaking the truth = Crazy to the media. I'm actually hoping this will shake up whoever wins the '08 election to try to do something about our predicament (oh noes, I don't get a tax break! Tears.) Ok, Ross's charts won't make anyone do anything, but the sad reality is that Obama is pledging mandates for socialized health plus tax breaks, and McCain is guided by the same crooked reasoning as Reagan and Bush(es) that the government can have the same spending habits as a heiress whose daddy has her sipping from a trust fund. We need to make this an issue, and damned soon.

/Crazy

Min5trel: Intelligence and speaking the truth = Crazy to the media.

Not only that, but someone who doesn't have a lifetime background in sleazeball politics doesn't speak fluent soundbyte. They don't know how to spin crap in their sleep. They can't come up with unoffensive answers to any question at the drop of a hat.

Americans don't want people running for office, they want career politicians.

/and Jefferson wept.
//actually a good time for a 3rd party candidate this go 'round
///There's massive dissent on both sides of the aisle.

So you can either vote for chicken man, or potato chip man, or me.

Yep. This is exactly what I've been saying in Fark forums about the US budget. (Well, Perot didn't start it. The Government Accountability Office has been saying exactly this for years now).

"he is clearly pointing to what he says are the culprits, the big entitlements -- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. As the narrator puts it with the first of the charts: "The United States faces large and growing budget deficits mostly due to an aging population and rising health-care costs. Unless we solve the problems caused by entitlement spending, there will be little money left to do anything else in the future."

Someone make a flapping ear Ross Perot gif STAT.

My Ross Perot anecdote:

I met Ross Perot when I was at the Air Force Academy a couple years ago for the Navy/AF game (he went to USNA). He was wandering around the campus with his escort, who happened to be a rather attractive female Air Force Captain. As we walked by I did a double-take and said to my classmates, "was that Ross Perot we just passed?" and sure enough it was. Being midshipmen, he was happy to stop and take pictures and talk to us for a few seconds. The best part was he basically spent the whole time shamelessly flirting with the Captain. It was awesome. He was hilarious, and really a pretty nice guy.

helix400: Yep. This is exactly what I've been saying in Fark forums about the US budget. (Well, Perot didn't start it. The Government Accountability Office has been saying exactly this for years now).

"he is clearly pointing to what he says are the culprits, the big entitlements -- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. As the narrator puts it with the first of the charts: "The United States faces large and growing budget deficits mostly due to an aging population and rising health-care costs. Unless we solve the problems caused by entitlement spending, there will be little money left to do anything else in the future."

All these numbers are based on the assumption that boomers are going to retire en masse.

It ain't gonna happen. We're in great health, we have no savings because we paid waaaay to much for this condo in Miami, and we can't live on SS. We'll keep working.

Even if I won the Mega Lotto, I would go to work until medically unable. Maybe at a cooler job.

Party Boy: Random Reality Check: we lost manufacturing jobs due to NAFTA

Economic redistribution to the wealthy via neo-liberal treaties like Nafta is a serious problem for us in the middle class.

So are imbalanced standards in worker safety and care. I'm not willing to enjoy the health care and pensions of a Chinese worker.

That isn't what I was trying to say and I certainly agree with you about our quality of life. We don't want to gut our OSHA protections or work for next to nothing - but the answer is that the world has shifted that way.

So, what we should have been doing was retooling out factories and our society (from an educational and training standpoint) to meet TODAY'S challenges - and we haven't as of yet.

Let's face it, we have a lot of challenges we need to face, alternative energy, food production (in a meaningful way) technologies that will clean up our environment and all of those things, to only mention a few, are products we can sell to the rest of the world.

Let's face it, you and I are not going to pay for a vehicle made in the USA based on steel manufactured in an obsolete plant and then assembled by Americans making a middle class wage.

But there are solutions to the problem, ones that may not be entirely palatable to the majority of the American public but solutions nonetheless.

We have dug ourselves a hole that we knew was going to suck to climb out of all the while lying to ourselves that the stock market was doing great - great as defined by these companies not investing in critical infrastructure, upgrades and improvements - because the bottom line at the end of the quarter was far more important.

And now the bill has come due.

Goimir: Min5trel: Intelligence and speaking the truth = Crazy to the media.

Not only that, but someone who doesn't have a lifetime background in sleazeball politics doesn't speak fluent soundbyte. They don't know how to spin crap in their sleep. They can't come up with unoffensive answers to any question at the drop of a hat.

Americans don't want people running for office, they want career politicians.

/and Jefferson wept.
//actually a good time for a 3rd party candidate this go 'round
///There's massive dissent on both sides of the aisle.

Bob Barr/Ron Paul '08. A vote for them is a vote for short names everywhere! (Only mention them because, well, they would balance the budget... )

indenture [TotalFark] Quote 2008-06-15 09:01:56 AM
Ross Perot has alot of good ideas, but he just couldn't shake the "crazy" vibe.

/ADM Stockdale was awesome, too bad he couldn't speak on stage
//Al Gore was wearing an ear bud receiver during his debate with Perot
///Ron Paul: also has good ideas, also crazy
////Why can't we get a non-crazy person with good ideas?!

Maybe because you have to be crazy to speak reality to voters.

Voter: (or so it seems)
Taxes exist because politicians are evil!
Government could buy everyone a pony if they weren't so cruel!

I disagree with Perot on some things but if you look at the recent history of the world you will find many examples of countries that became crippled by debt as well as examples where countries only started to recover after painfully imposing fiscal responsibility.

The longer you run up the credit card the worse you will crash.

Remember when Japan was going to overtake the US? Where are they now? check their GDP/dept ratio.

Almet: I've had sex with a dog, twice! The Republicans are putting gonorrhea in my sandwiches; it's true!

/Obscure?

John Stewart FTW! One of my friends running jokes for years now. Occasionally he'll call out of the blue and yell that into my voicemail. Gets me every time.

(1) cancel SS
(2) cancel Medicare
(3) cancel Medicaid
(4) reduce Defense budget by 10%
(5) Stop spending money on other nations
(6) let the 2001 and 2003 tax breaks expire
(7) fine-tooth comb all governmental expenditures
(8) inflation and COLA adjustments must be gotten ahold of
(9) increase the strength and value of the dollar
(10) never spend more money than you receive in taxes, ever.

There it is, my fellows, my 10 point plan for solving this whole mess. No charts needed, no Perot flapping his ears. Just plain logic....especially the last point.

The biggest issues are the first 4 points. You'd be hard pressed to get them going, but this is needed or the US is farked. Sorry to be blunt, but the time of handing out free subsidies to the aged must come to a complete end. To steal from Star Trek: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

Charts. Each one of them showing Republicans can't run a government they've been advertising they can break when elected.