i've got no joke or snark, this really got me choked up a little.

Repost from earlier thread:

Meh.

I'm voting for Obama. I'm opposed to the war. I actually like Keith Olbermann.

I'm not really seeing the big deal about McCain's words. And I think Keith is overreacting. Which is beginning to become a habit.

I think the idea of us establishing a permanent presence in Iraq has always been the idea, and it's one of the reasons that actually begins to justify the whole stupid enterprise. This is why I really despise all the bullsh*t and deception the President has jammed down our throats.

My girlfriend and I watched this, as it was broadcast. She was crying by the end of it. Not 'shed a couple of tears' crying, but 'mascara-running-down-the-face' crying, as Keith told the story of the people who purposely inflicted horrendous injuries on themselves to avoid another tour of duty.

I forget what eight was for: I'm not really seeing the big deal about McCain's words.

the big deal isn't the "not too important" in a vacuum. the big deal is that he is taking up the mantle of a callous view of our troops, of our fellow citizens, who are dying for no good reason. the big deal is that he is playing political games, saying anything he thinks will score him points, and he's playing them with people's lives. the big deal is that while our politicians are still not willing or able to be honest about a matter as grave as life and deat, a matter as grave as war, we are lost as a nation.

if you don't understand what the big deal is, then you need to go to your local recruiting office and sign up. we aren't sure when you'll be able to come home and see your family again, or if you ever will, but that's not too important, is it?

THIS GOT A GREEN LIGHT?

/Olberdouche is such a sad little pansey liberal

wow. just...wow

He is the best anchor on television. I wish there were more. It was once him and Tucker Carlson, but partisan Democrats couldn't accept a libertarian who went after both sides.

burndtdan: I forget what eight was for: I'm not really seeing the big deal about McCain's words.

the big deal isn't the "not too important" in a vacuum. the big deal is that he is taking up the mantle of a callous view of our troops, of our fellow citizens, who are dying for no good reason. the big deal is that he is playing political games, saying anything he thinks will score him points, and he's playing them with people's lives. the big deal is that while our politicians are still not willing or able to be honest about a matter as grave as life and deat, a matter as grave as war, we are lost as a nation.

if you don't understand what the big deal is, then you need to go to your local recruiting office and sign up. we aren't sure when you'll be able to come home and see your family again, or if you ever will, but that's not too important, is it?

Well said, sir.

burndtdan:

if you don't understand what the big deal is, then you need to go to your local recruiting office and sign up. we aren't sure when you'll be able to come home and see your family again, or if you ever will, but that's not too important, is it?

Well, as long as we're discussing it rationally and not simply as an appeal to emotion. Also, I'm glad to know that the fact that I didn't serve in the military has removed the validity of my opinion on the matter.

But since McCain served, maybe I'll just refresh his words for you. He said it is the casualties that are the problem. If the situation is stable then there's no difference between having them in Iraq and having them in Germany or Korea. I think this has always been the point of the whole stupid war. Oh, sorry. Got my opinion in there. I was a Cub Scout, does that get me one sentence?

chuck4455: THIS GOT A GREEN LIGHT?

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/Olberdouche is such a sad little pansey liberal

Sad little ad hominem.. Can't be bothered to address the substance.

I forget what eight was for: I'm not really seeing the big deal about McCain's words. And I think Keith is overreacting.

Absolutely not. The press should be throwing road caltrops under the Straight Talk Express for this comment. John McCain has made a habit of letting stupid lines slip, which tell us his exact thoughts, and has been skating by with hardly any scrutiny.

The war, and how to extricate your soldiers from it, are important to you, yes? If so, you should be paying very close attention to where the opposition is taking the argument. If McCain says that withdrawing the troops is "not too important", and you accept that, then you've just taken the entire issue of withdrawing the troops off the table. It seems that, Olbermann is the only person in the mainstream press who understands this.

I forget what eight was for: Well, as long as we're discussing it rationally and not simply as an appeal to emotion. Also, I'm glad to know that the fact that I didn't serve in the military has removed the validity of my opinion on the matter.

appeal to emotion?

this isn't an appeal to emotion. this is peoples' lives you're talking about.

and no, it doesn't invalidate your opinion, but it certainly calls into question why you "don't get it". it's not that hard to get, but if you don't, i would just suggest that you put your life on the line, because you'll certainly get it then.

He's a skinny Michael Moore. I hate how these douchebags overuse words like "Sir" and "Mr. _____", and phrases like "For shame", etc.

So overly emotional and dramatic. I can't stand people on either side of the aisle any more. These people probably couldn't hold their own in a face-to-face discussion without peeing their pants, much less serve in the military.

I've watched a few Olberman clips in the past 3 weeks, and I swear I thought he was going to cry at the end.

I forget what eight was for: Also, I'm glad to know that the fact that I didn't serve in the military has removed the validity of my opinion on the matter.

It doesn't remove the validity of your opinion. He's saying that, for the proper perspective needed to understand why McCain's comment is anger-worthy, you need to be that guy who strapped a tool kit to his back and jumped off a roof to avoid being sent back overseas.

chuck4455: THIS GOT A GREEN LIGHT?
/Olberdouche is such a sad little pansey liberal

What a brilliant and devastating point-by-point rebuttal of Olbermann's comments. Guess you really showed him--and us--something there. Brillant, trenchant analysis. Well done, Sparky.

GWShenlong05: If McCain says that withdrawing the troops is "not too important", and you accept that, then you've just taken the entire issue of withdrawing the troops off the table.

I don't agree with McCain. I just don't see how what he's saying here is any different than what he's been saying for a while. Even based on some of the clips that Olbermann showed, particularly the "100 years" comment. If the situation becomes stable then there is no difference between having military personnel on a base here or there or in Korea. I tend to agree with this, but still assert that it's an enormous 800-lb. "if".

HA! No hate like demented, pansey, liberal hate.

/Must have hit a nerve, huh?

He (McCain) should take a job as a traget holder at an undisclosed location for Cheney.
And Olbermann sould get the veep-nod.
And you trolls (You know who you are) should seek out alts of virtue and enlist if you ar so gung-ho.

Stoj: He's a skinny Michael Moore. I hate how these douchebags overuse words like "Sir" and "Mr. _____", and phrases like "For shame", etc.

So overly emotional and dramatic. I can't stand people on either side of the aisle any more. These people probably couldn't hold their own in a face-to-face discussion without peeing their pants, much less serve in the military.

I've watched a few Olberman clips in the past 3 weeks, and I swear I thought he was going to cry at the end.

His style is contrived, much like O'Reilly. They're both meant to incite anger in their viewers. However, Olbermann presents some very valid points, if you can look past his style and the annoying camera changes that happen every few minutes.

GWShenlong05: you need to be that guy who strapped a tool kit to his back and jumped off a roof to avoid being sent back overseas.

Dude, I think that was a chick.

the right wing greenlight blowback is gonna be helacious tommorrow.

chuck4455: /Must have hit a nerve, huh?

I guess his comment must have for you to come in here and post.

burndtdan: this is peoples' lives you're talking about.

No, it specifically isn't.

McCain said "it's the casualties that are important". If we remove the harm from Iraq, then it's not important if the troops come home".

Is this likely? I don't think so. He does. But by no means does it mean he doesn't care about the troops or their well-being.

I understand McCain's point about staying a 100 years in the capacity that we may still have a base there some day, just like we do in all the other foreign countries. But that was a great piece. I don't watch Olbermann much, only when it's on TF, but that was good.

Herr Olbermann just loves the cock!

Stoj: I swear I thought he was going to cry at the end.

Yes, FSM forbid that a commentator show a genuine emotion besides aggression.

He's passionate, articulate and informed. I was never a fan of his before but this election has done something to him. His shock over the Clinton's cozying up to Scaife seems to have liberated him somehow.

He speaks for me and thousands of others. You don't like it? Don't watch. Its really very simple.

ElQue: Olbermann presents some very valid points

I'm sure that he does - I just can't stand his delivery. If he would just play it straight I would be more willing to listen to what he has to say.

I don't truly believe that McCain is as callous as Olberman makes him out to be. And although I think the war has been one big pile of sh*t from the beginning, if things settled down, I would not be opposed to having a military presence there.

Suicidal Writer: He is the best anchor on television. I wish there were more. It was once him and Tucker Carlson, but partisan Democrats couldn't accept a libertarian who went after both sides.

This, you scum sucking Republicans. McCain is a douche and a sellout. He's a pathetic shell of a man that once had anger, spit and morals. He could have been a great President if he'd showed any spine at all after the 2000 smear fest.

Always good stuff.

I forget what eight was for: I'm not really seeing the big deal about McCain's words. And I think Keith is overreacting. Which is beginning to become a habit.

Does the fact that he has changed his tone on the Iraq war a half dozen times in the past 7 years not bother you?

What about how he has changed his opinion on whether this is a war for some victory to find WMDs or if we are actually just trying to succeed in liberating the country or any of the other 2 or 3 things that have been mentioned about "victory", does any of that bother you?

Does it bother you that, as a maverick politician, he has been lockstep with the administration from the word go in an effort to position himself for this presidential campaign?

I mean, I'm not really seeing the big deal about his words either.

Other than the fact that it's just another misguided statement that shows just how out of touch he is with a large majority of the American public.

But, who cares if they are there for less than a decade like he said or if they are there for 60 years...like he said.

who cares?

Stoj: ElQue: Olbermann presents some very valid points

I'm sure that he does - I just can't stand his delivery. If he would just play it straight I would be more willing to listen to what he has to say.

I don't truly believe that McCain is as callous as Olberman makes him out to be. And although I think the war has been one big pile of sh*t from the beginning, if things settled down, I would not be opposed to having a military presence there.

Fair enough. I rarely watch Olbermann (for some reason, Comcast does not give us MSNBC here), but his style is definitely a put off. I do agree with him most of the time, but that's because I'm a demented pansey (sic) liberal.

Stoj: I don't truly believe that McCain is as callous as Olberman makes him out to be. And although I think the war has been one big pile of sh*t from the beginning, if things settled down, I would not be opposed to having a military presence there.

That's what I was going for.

quickdraw: Yes, FSM forbid that a commentator show a genuine emotion besides aggression.

Aggressive commentary is just as annoying. Go ahead and show emotion, but I can't relate to him. I am not as outraged over 90% of the things that make him crazy. The people that are going to get things done in this country are not going to do it by screaming at one another or into a camera.

You don't like it? Don't watch. Its really very simple.

I try to watch as much of him as I can take - at least to see what points he is going to discuss. I think that he does shine light on things that other news orgs miss. But after a while, I can't stand him and turn the channel.

bulldg4life: Does the fact that he has changed his tone on the Iraq war a half dozen times in the past 7 years not bother you?

Yes, it does. Which is among the myriad reasons I'm not voting for him.

I simply believe that this particular statement is not an indication that he is callous about the fate of the troops, which is how it's being played/perceived.

I hate it when the Republicans do it and I hate it when the Democrats do it. It diminishes the debate.

ElQue: I do agree with him most of the time, but that's because I'm a demented pansey (sic) liberal.

I'm a demented pansey that likes some things and dislikes other things...

Stoj: I don't truly believe that McCain is as callous as Olberman makes him out to be. And although I think the war has been one big pile of sh*t from the beginning, if things settled down, I would not be opposed to having a military presence there.

I don't think it is an attack on how McCain feels personally about the troops. Whether he cares about them or not.

But, the idea that he changes his tune every 3 weeks when it suits him and he talks of the war as some abstract thing that can be molded in to a political talking point at the drop of a hat...that's a pretty big idea.

Heh, Keith said 'comrade'.

That means he's a communist.

We know what McCain means when he says things like "not too important" and "100 years," but the utter callousness it takes to phrase things in such a way...I don't know, I think it betrays him to a certain extent. That's what Keith is talking about, and it's another great job by KO.

Stoj: ElQue: I do agree with him most of the time, but that's because I'm a demented pansey (sic) liberal.

I'm a demented pansey that likes some things and dislikes other things...

Your rationality amuses and confuses me. Is this not a Political thread? You're supposed to call me a commie appeaser!

/I keed
//obviously

bulldg4life: But, the idea that he changes his tune every 3 weeks when it suits him

My take on McCain is that he's never held an opinion that someone didn't provide for him. He seems to me like a decent man, but I don't buy into his "maverick" reputation. At the same time, I don't know if he changes his opinion when it suits him, or he just forgets what his opinion is and says something stupid and contradictory instead.

I forget what eight was for: bulldg4life: Does the fact that he has changed his tone on the Iraq war a half dozen times in the past 7 years not bother you?

Yes, it does. Which is among the myriad reasons I'm not voting for him.

I simply believe that this particular statement is not an indication that he is callous about the fate of the troops, which is how it's being played/perceived.

I hate it when the Republicans do it and I hate it when the Democrats do it. It diminishes the debate.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree here (surprise, surprise). What McCain said YESTERDAY bothers me, however. Olbermann actually nailed that part since if the surge is working you'd think there'd be some idea of troops coming back and if you don't have an idea then perhaps the surge isn't working.

Plus it's only June 12th. Getting to be a broken record on that, but, yeah, whatever.

robsul82: We know what McCain means when he says things like "not too important" and "100 years," but the utter callousness it takes to phrase things in such a way...I don't know, I think it betrays him to a certain extent. That's what Keith is talking about, and it's another great job by KO.

I think McCain's real problem is even when you look only at what he meant, its still a horrible position which will be destroyed in a debate.

Stoj: bulldg4life: But, the idea that he changes his tune every 3 weeks when it suits him

My take on McCain is that he's never held an opinion that someone didn't provide for him. He seems to me like a decent man, but I don't buy into his "maverick" reputation. At the same time, I don't know if he changes his opinion when it suits him, or he just forgets what his opinion is and says something stupid and contradictory instead.

I think McCain just isn't a very smart guy. Not trying to insult him, but I don't think he has a broad intelligence or understands things very well.

DamnYankees: I think McCain's real problem is even when you look only at what he meant, its still a horrible position which will be destroyed in a debate.

I think McCain gets eaten alive in the debates regardless of the format.

Well that made my day, seeing that bag of dicks on the verge of tears.

It isn't that important, the casualties are. The people on his list were casualties.

Olbermann=fail.

ElQue: Your rationality amuses and confuses me. Is this not a Political thread? You're supposed to call me a commie appeaser!

I burnt myself out in the 2000 and 2004 elections. I probably watched 24-hour news coverage for days and days at a time, and could become absolutely belligerent about politics. But I just don't have it in me anymore.

My dad and I were at two different ends of the spectrum, and would debate politics like two old men. He passed away a few weeks ago, so I'll vote for Obama for him.

Since I live in Illinois, my vote really won't make a difference either way.

DamnYankees: robsul82: We know what McCain means when he says things like "not too important" and "100 years," but the utter callousness it takes to phrase things in such a way...I don't know, I think it betrays him to a certain extent. That's what Keith is talking about, and it's another great job by KO.

I think McCain's real problem is even when you look only at what he meant, its still a horrible position which will be destroyed in a debate.

Very true. I can only wait to see how Obama's going to whittle "The Middle East is NOT Germany, is NOT Japan, is NOT... etc." with his Harvard Law Review lawyerspeak. He does that, McCain's feedbag face will redden, sentence fragments will sputter from his pale lips, and we'll hear the one word that will instantly sink his candidacy.

/and no, it's not "pancakes"

Stoj: My take on McCain is that he's never held an opinion that someone didn't provide for him. He seems to me like a decent man, but I don't buy into his "maverick" reputation. At the same time, I don't know if he changes his opinion when it suits him, or he just forgets what his opinion is and says something stupid and contradictory instead.

The McCain from 8-10 years ago was quite an interesting figure. He voted against the president when Reagan wanted to send troops to lebanon (?). He worked on several democratic sponsored reforms in the early-90s.

He actually was a maverick politician that went on his own moral compass.

But, over the past 10 years or so, the compass has started spinning like he was trying to traverse the Bermuda triangle.

From his views of the tax cuts to his comments regarding the religious right to his opinions of the Iraq war, his opinions have started spinning in circles and running in to each other in some jumbled mess of which there is no possible escape.

He tried to get elected on a platform of change and uniqueness in 2000. And it didn't work. He didn't play "the game".

Now, he plays the game. He plays it far too much. He stands lockstep with the GOP party line, but he still tries to pull off the unique and maverick John McCain.

His opinions are being formed around the idea that he wants to be president for four years. Not that he wants to be a good president or succeed or anything else. Just that he wants to be elected.

Concerning this particular comment, at it's base...it is not a terrible comment. In its entirety, if American troops are not being injured, then maybe it isn't important when they come home or even to have a timetable. However, when asked about the troop surge, to say that it hasn't given an indication. That would imply that the surge didn't, in fact, work. It has failed and we still don't know when our troops are coming home.

When looking at all of the things that he has said. When looking at all of the opinions that he has changed and stated wrong and then been corrected and stated wrong again. When looking at all of that, it just comes down to him seemingly not being in touch with the American public.

robsul82: Very true. I can only wait to see how Obama's going to whittle "The Middle East is NOT Germany, is NOT Japan, is NOT... etc." with his Harvard Law Review lawyerspeak. He does that, McCain's feedbag face will redden, sentence fragments will sputter from his pale lips, and we'll hear the one word that will instantly sink his candidacy.

The best way of putting it was what someone wrote here on Fark - sorry, I can't remember who it was. To paraphrase:

Saying you want to have troops in Iraq in the same you want them in Germany is the same as saying you're ok with having your kid stand in the middle of the freeway as long as there's no traffic.

McCain thinks as long as no one is getting killed we'll be ok paying for 58 permanent military bases and keeping forces there in perpetuity. Well he needs to explain how he's going to pay for it. It's the reason we're in the shape we're in now. We're a bad risk now because of our debt. The dollar isn't worth anything.All the money has went into oil futures because Bush is hell bent on attacking Iran.

he needs to explain how he's going to get recruitment up without a draft.and how he's going to take care of them when they get home. Especially if he thinks the GI bill is too generous.