I hope they don't have an open bar at the conference.

If only one country out of 27 is smart enough to vote on it, they deserve to make the call.

Indeed

(new window)

"Only Ireland stands between a proper rethink of the treaty and the empire-building ambitions of the anti-democratic, expenses-fiddling, systematically corrupt Eurocrats aboard the Brussels gravy train."

That sentence made me hungry. And a little horny.

strangeguitar: I hope they don't have an open bar at the conference.

Yeah..."tonight" could last days.

I'll drink to that!

Lets everyone just hope Ireland does the right thing. This damnable EU either needs to be rebuilt as a proper democratic institution or torn down to just remain a guarantor of free trade and movement across Europe. Let's face it, it's about as democratic as my arse, which isn't.

They're screwed.

as it always should have been: Operation Gaelic Empire is proceeding perfectly according to plan. Tomorrow we will see the "e" restored to Whiskey bottles every where and Then...well we'll like knock off a bit early for some hard earned pints, but THEN we'll conquer the world...

They're so fooked.

Maybe it's too early in the morning for me but that article came close to giving me a headache.

Slaxl

Lets everyone just hope Ireland does the right thing. This damnable EU either needs to be rebuilt as a proper democratic institution or torn down to just remain a guarantor of free trade and movement across Europe. Let's face it, it's about as democratic as my arse, which isn't.

As opposed to these referendums, which are so democratic that the majority of the people that turned up to vote don't even know the name of what they are voting for/against, let alone even the most basic knowledge of the actual legal content of the document.

xria:
As opposed to these referendums, which are so democratic that the majority of the people that turned up to vote don't even know the name of what they are voting for/against, let alone even the most basic knowledge of the actual legal content of the document.

Having spent the better part of Tuesday and Wednesday reading the damn Lisbon treaty, I have very little sympathy for those people who claim they don't know what they are voting on. You could pick up free copies of the treaty at hundreds of locations across the country.

Don't know what the thing says? Then read it.

/Voted yes

Ginger Apocalypse: When the Whiskey Ran Out

For those following the thing:

Result from Waterford is just in; 54-46 against the treaty. Early tallies from other places show a slight edge to the no-vote, but no other offical counts as of yet.

GO NO ...

Save the rest of Europe from the countries too scared to let its people vote.

What do you call your act?

The Eurocrats!

BBC says NO wins.

I'm really amazed Ireland votes NO on this. They are the succes story of the EU, where grants and aid transformed them from the poorest to an economic leader.

I agree that the EU needs some reforms, but it's a hard thing to institute more democracy, because the nations are very unlikely that they'll give up rights like veto. If the EU acted independantly, but any of it's 27 members could veto every ruling, nothing would get done ever.

The biggest problem is that the EU has been used as a scapegoat by politicians for 3 decades now, and it has stuck in the mind of the people. All they ever hear of the EU is how it's creating extra rules, costing money.

SanderJK: I'm really amazed Ireland votes NO on this. They are the succes story of the EU, where grants and aid transformed them from the poorest to an economic leader.

On the other hand, they're deeply catholic and are afraid that the EU would force them to legalize abortion or other un-christian things. (Divorce was only introduced in '97)

"It effectively makes the liberalisation and privatisation of public services a constitutional goal, opens up transport and energy to enforced private competition, requires member states to boost their 'military capabilities', and sharply increases the powers of the European court of justice."

They voted 'no'...surprise, surprise. Far be it from European nations to embrace free markets and actually provide for their own defence.

Ireland isn't exactly known for its large military prowess and willingness to enter foreign wars.

As for free markets, perhaps they're a bit concerned about how rail privatization has gone in the UK ...

Heck, they even turned down Churchill's offer to re-unite the 32 counties in exchange for the Royal Navy getting to use Irish ports.

Thank goodness we have a no! The consolidation of power is always a bad thing.

/Voted against treaty
//Didn't like it because it wasn't quite right in the headings.

SanderJK:
I'm really amazed Ireland votes NO on this. They are the succes story of the EU, where grants and aid transformed them from the poorest to an economic leader.

A simple "take the money and run" situation. Yeah, we're richer because of Europe, but we'll still be rich if we vote NO. Most people who voted No weren't necessarily against it, but just didn't understand it, and didn't like being told what to do. It's not been confirmed, but it looks like No will win the day.

/Voted yes because the main parties were for it, and I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about.

*looks at watch*
Yup, it's been around 70 years since the last drive for a `unified Europe'. Hmmmm?
*glares at Germany*

"It effectively makes the liberalisation and privatisation of public services a constitutional goal, opens up transport and energy to enforced private competition, requires member states to boost their 'military capabilities', and sharply increases the powers of the European court of justice."

Shaggy_C:They voted 'no'...surprise, surprise. Far be it from European nations to embrace free markets and actually provide for their own defence.

The bold issue would make me nervous if I was voting on something like that, I wouldn't want a court system that could trump our nations court system...

Slaxl: Lets everyone just hope Ireland does the right thing. This damnable EU either needs to be rebuilt as a proper democratic institution or torn down to just remain a guarantor of free trade and movement across Europe. Let's face it, it's about as democratic as my arse, which isn't.

Really? Mine is. My cheeks have a 2 to 1 majority over my asshole, though, so they always win. It doesn't matter, because he is an asshole anyways.

Tanqueray: If only one country out of 27 is smart enough to vote on it, they deserve to make the call.

Yeah, I remember reading about the intense popular votes state by state to pass the U.S. Constitution...

And we often have those big popular votes to pass international treaties here in the U.S....

Headso: The bold issue would make me nervous if I was voting on something like that, I wouldn't want a court system that could trump our nations court system...

You do realize that, like the United States, most countries abide by treaties first and their own law second - meaning that, like it or not, the UN owns your ass.

An tSaoi: /Voted yes because the main parties were for it, and I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about.

That's only when it comes to picking horses.

Shaggy_C: You do realize that, like the United States, most countries abide by treaties first and their own law second - meaning that, like it or not, the UN owns your ass.

We don't have an issue being kicked up to a UN court system after the supreme court rules on the matter. If I was an Irish native I wouldn't want my highest court allowed to be trumped by a court outside the country. I'm not too familiar with the treaty so I don't know if that is what "sharply increases the powers of the European court of justice." means but if it does, I would vote no in a cocaine heartbeat..

OOOOOOOOOO....

WEEEE DRINK AND DRINK AND DRINK AND DRINK AND DRINK AND DRINK AND DRINK;
AND FIGHT AND FIGHT AND FIGHT AND FIGHT AND FIGHT AND FIGHT AND FIGHT!

Magorn: as it always should have been: Operation Gaelic Empire is proceeding perfectly according to plan. Tomorrow we will see the "e" restored to Whiskey bottles every where and Then...well we'll like knock off a bit early for some hard earned pints, but THEN we'll conquer the world...

I'll raise a pint to the comments of my cousin from the side of the family that can't spell.

oldfarthenry: "Yup, it's been around 70 years since the last drive for a `unified Europe'. Hmmmm?"

Not exactly.

About half the results are in. So far, about 54-46 against the treaty. Unlikely to change to much as the remaining results come in, so looks like a rejection.

Of course, this just means we get to vote on it again until we get it right.

Magorn: as it always should have been: Operation Gaelic Empire is proceeding perfectly according to plan. Tomorrow we will see the "e" restored to Whiskey bottles every where and Then...well we'll like knock off a bit early for some hard earned pints, but THEN we'll conquer the world...

Fun fact. The Irish actually ADDED the E to whisky in order to seperate it from low quality scotch whisky coming out of the region.

/read about it on wiki just the other day.

haugh

xria:
As opposed to these referendums, which are so democratic that the majority of the people that turned up to vote don't even know the name of what they are voting for/against, let alone even the most basic knowledge of the actual legal content of the document.

Having spent the better part of Tuesday and Wednesday reading the damn Lisbon treaty, I have very little sympathy for those people who claim they don't know what they are voting on. You could pick up free copies of the treaty at hundreds of locations across the country.

Don't know what the thing says? Then read it.

/Voted yes

While it is great that you voted based on actual knowledge of the issue, whatever you ended up voting, what percentage of the people who voted would you estimate that have done similarly? Assuming, as with most similar votes, that less than 0.1% of the population has anything other than a cursory knowledge of what they are voting for/against then the actual content of the treaty is essentially irrelevant to the result of the vote. The only potential complicating factor is if there have been media commentators that have been persuaded by the actual content to take a stance one way or the other, and then used their position to persuade others, but if it is like it is here pretty much all such media figures have long held views on Europe that don't change based on something so petty as what the issue in question actually is.

At least there are no snakes in Ireland.

Sequel in the works?

WorldCitizen: Tanqueray: If only one country out of 27 is smart enough to vote on it, they deserve to make the call.

Yeah, I remember reading about the intense popular votes state by state to pass the U.S. Constitution...

And we often have those big popular votes to pass international treaties here in the U.S....

Yeah, ok, maybe we let our national officials handle treaties, but the first bit actually often happens. Just because we haven't admitted a new state in a while doesn't mean that the requirements for admission have magically changed to exempt them from voting to accept the authority of the existing constitution. Also, all constitutional amendments, which are arguably the only truly universally national laws, get ratified state-by-state.

Dear God, sooo pissed off with the NO vote winning. You'd have to be here to believe the state of campaigning on both sides (the no campaign particularly negative).
I think about 2 professors on the Island were the only ones who truly understood the thing and so a million people ran to the polls on gut feeling.
460,000 holding up the progress of 500 million, some say it's a victory for democracy but not how I look at it.

Naturally most Farkers are going to see this as a victory for wee Irish nationhood against a big Europe but it's not like that at all. Ireland took all the EU funds it could and saw no problem signing up to money from anyone before.



SanderJK Quote 2008-06-13 08:26:45 AM
I'm really amazed Ireland votes NO on this. They are the succes story of the EU, where grants and aid transformed them from the poorest to an economic leader.

I agree that the EU needs some reforms, but it's a hard thing to institute more democracy, because the nations are very unlikely that they'll give up rights like veto. If the EU acted independantly, but any of it's 27 members could veto every ruling, nothing would get done ever.

The biggest problem is that the EU has been used as a scapegoat by politicians for 3 decades now, and it has stuck in the mind of the people. All they ever hear of the EU is how it's creating extra rules, costing money.

Totally agree with you and I'm ashamed on how the vote turned out. The vast majority of Irish people know how much of Irelands success was due to EU help but the campaign from the YES side was lazy and the NO side had major funding from businessmen afraid of European taxes.
The Irish people didn't bother to read up on the treaty and I think the loud and totally misleading NO campaign scared people.
The main issued of the NO side being:

Neutrality
Which is a joke since Ireland lets US troops, mercenaries and extraordinary rendition (read POWs to be tortured) through Shannon airport because the governments afraid of really keeping our traditional neutral stance.
Loss of a councillor
Another ridiculous argument since it affects all countries.
The EU raising taxes
A non issue, the only people worried about taxes are the two billionaires behind the Libertas (No) campaign.

The Libertas campaign was set up by two billionaires. One of them sells parts to the US military and also sells out of date (and very polluting) Boeing planes. He hates the EU because of our new carbon emmissions laws and has now successfully put a spanner into the EU machinery.
The posters they put out had pictures of our constitution with "People died for your freedoms!", "You won't have a voice in Europe!" and other ridiculous claims. It's a pity the Yes campaign couldn't get their act together.

Kazuya: 460,000 holding up the progress of 500 million, some say it's a victory for democracy but not how I look at it.

So the way you think about it the other 500 million people (except France and the Netherlands) not voting is ok?

/You know who else etc
//French and Dutch said no too, but were told to fark off
///your flawed logic, let me show it to you.

WorldCitizen:
And we often have those big popular votes to pass international treaties here in the U.S....

If there were anyone who could force us to follow treaties, we might be more careful about how they get ratified. As it is, there's no real reason to worry about it.

Why eurosceptics should vote for the Lisbon Treaty:
- it contains a voluntary withdrawal cause (countries from the Union)
- it makes the European institutions more democratic (more power to the parliament)
- it provides for different speeds of integration (for groups of countries more or less sceptic)
- it makes the Union's day to day work more transparent and efficient
- it is the best compromise anyone could come up with and there won't be a better deal anyway
- Declan Ganly of Libertas (NO campaign) is sponsored by the Foreign Policy Research Institute whose purpose is to "advance U.S. national interests"

/subby

oldfarthenry: *looks at watch*
Yup, it's been around 70 years since the last drive for a `unified Europe'. Hmmmm?
*glares at Germany*

[Russia hides face behind newspaper]

"The fate of 500 million Europeans and 27 countries lies in the hands of Ireland tonight"

If ever a headline deserved the SCARY tag instead....