If only they had oil...

Wait, you can do that? Someone send Hillary to Zimbabwe

That is one farked up country. I really hope support is so strong that Mugabe's vote rigging and intimidation cannot keep up.

I heard he makes a pretty decent wine

Look at it this way: you'll never have a better chance to have a $50 billion bill. Too bad it'll be worth a nickel in, let's see here...what time is it?

Is it the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, or something else that makes that entire continent batshiat crazy?

MayoBoy: Is it the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, or something else that makes that entire continent batshiat crazy?

Naggers?

Mr. Mugabe later in the day made a statement to his opponent, "Hey! If you're gay and think I'm sexy, don't campaign today!! hehehehe"

Yay freedom. Why does Mugabe even go through the charade of having "elections"?


The answer of course is because he really is that stupid.

MugzyBrown: MayoBoy: Is it the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, or something else that makes that entire continent batshiat crazy?

Naggers?

They're all married?

MugzyBrown: MayoBoy: Is it the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, or something else that makes that entire continent batshiat crazy?

Naggers?

*winces*

Why do we even try to help these back ass counties... We should just let them kill each other off, it's what they all want anyways.

Ah, and it seemed just like yesterday that Mugabe was promising to abide by the result, thinking that his rigging and intimidation would work and he wouldn't have an issue with it. Funny how things work out.

/now where are all the farkers that usually come in here just to say that Bush is worse?

MayoBoy: Is it the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, or something else that makes that entire continent batshiat crazy?

I'm not even a Star Trek fan, and Africa is pretty much the best case for the Prime Directive. I'm sure they'd be better off as tribal hunter-gatherers, and not have a bunch of European colonists completely fark up all of sub-Saharan Africa and arm half the population with AK-47s and FN-FALs.

What's sad is they used to be doing really well. Then they chased out all the white people who knew how to be farmers, on the assumption that basically untrained peasants would be able to do it better with tiny plots and limited experience.

this shouldn't have to be the norm for countries like this:
"If only they had oil" What happened to the ideology of spreading democracy to places where it is most needed?


/ok sorry someone switched my coffee to decaf what were we talking about? oh yeah buying a hamburger with a wheelbarrow full of money, carry on.

Clearly a large rock concert can fix all of this.

MayoBoy: Is it the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, or something else that makes that entire continent batshiat crazy?

In this specific case, Mugabe decided he wanted to stay in power at all costs and used his war veterans to dominate the country. To reward his henchmen he seized white farms and turned them over to idiots who don't know how to farm. It's all kinds of messed up.

I know somebody who visited Zimbabwe in the past year before the election violence got bad. It is a beautiful country and the regular folks are just that, regular folks who want to live a decent life. The Old Man (Mugabe) is the one farking it up for them.

In other parts of Africa the natural resources are so valuable that it's in the interest of developed nations and stronger African nations (or parts of nations) to keep destabilizing the weaker ones, so that resources can be extracted without cost and consideration paid to the locals.

Super_pope:
What's sad is they used to be doing really well. Then they chased out all the white people who knew how to be farmers, on the assumption that basically untrained peasants would be able to do it better with tiny plots and limited experience.

A smart leader would have had it both ways - allow the white farmers to keep growing, and tapped their expertise to train the "war veterans" etc. to actually become decent farmers on other land. But of course Mugabe is a race-baiting madman, not a smart leader. I will not be unhappy if/when he gets the Mussolini treatment from a desperate, starving populace.

Tsvirongai - Let's campaign against the status quo!

Police - Sorry, but we can not guarantee your safety against members of our political party, so it'll be creating an unsafe situation if you campaign or protest. We can however protect you from them by keeping you at the police station for multiple days at a time.

Yay freedom. Why does Mugabe even go through the charade of having "elections"?

Because nobody would give this idiot political asylum, he's so hated. So he can't give up control, not even with billions in Swiss bank accounts.

No Such Agency
Super_pope:
What's sad is they used to be doing really well. Then they chased out all the white people who knew how to be farmers, on the assumption that basically untrained peasants would be able to do it better with tiny plots and limited experience.

A smart leader would have had it both ways - allow the white farmers to keep growing, and tapped their expertise to train the "war veterans" etc. to actually become decent farmers on other land. But of course Mugabe is a race-baiting madman, not a smart leader. I will not be unhappy if/when he gets the Mussolini treatment from a desperate, starving populace.

Alternately, if he really really wanted to strip the whites of their land, he could have let the black farmhands that had been taking care of the white owned farms have them since they actually KNEW how to farm instead of just giving them to his war cronies

eist08-06-06 09:33:40 AM
do we even try to help these back ass counties... We should just let them kill each other off, it's what they all want anyways.


I hate agreeing with trolls

Egalitarian:
In other parts of Africa the natural resources are so valuable that it's in the interest of developed nations and stronger African nations (or parts of nations) to keep destabilizing the weaker ones, so that resources can be extracted without cost and consideration paid to the locals.

Spot on.

Although you must ask yourself why Mbeki isn't doing anything to alleviate the situation.

No Such Agency: Super_pope:
What's sad is they used to be doing really well. Then they chased out all the white people who knew how to be farmers, on the assumption that basically untrained peasants would be able to do it better with tiny plots and limited experience.

A smart leader would have had it both ways - allow the white farmers to keep growing, and tapped their expertise to train the "war veterans" etc. to actually become decent farmers on other land. But of course Mugabe is a race-baiting madman, not a smart leader. I will not be unhappy if/when he gets the Mussolini treatment from a desperate, starving populace.

The reason why Mugabe 'redistibuted' the land in the first place was that his party was losing popularity and there was an election coming up. It wasn't an arbitrary decision. In fact it was a broadly popular one.

Cecil Rhodes is turning over in his grave.

Sorry Ashtrey, I wasn't trying to troll at all. Just seems that no amount of help ever does anything to actually help. But I don't really want them to kill each other off.

biobot: Egalitarian:
In other parts of Africa the natural resources are so valuable that it's in the interest of developed nations and stronger African nations (or parts of nations) to keep destabilizing the weaker ones, so that resources can be extracted without cost and consideration paid to the locals.

Spot on.

Although you must ask yourself why Mbeki isn't doing anything to alleviate the situation.

I'm always intrigued by this belief. What would you propose Mbeki does? I mean he does keep talking to Mugabe about the possibility that he might consider, who know, one day, possibly sometime soon, maybe buggering off. As wishy-washy as it is I can't figure what else he could do that might help. What are your thoughts?

Was he fined $1,000,000 Zimbabwe dollars?

/about a penny

biobot: No Such Agency: Super_pope:
What's sad is they used to be doing really well. Then they chased out all the white people who knew how to be farmers, on the assumption that basically untrained peasants would be able to do it better with tiny plots and limited experience.

A smart leader would have had it both ways - allow the white farmers to keep growing, and tapped their expertise to train the "war veterans" etc. to actually become decent farmers on other land. But of course Mugabe is a race-baiting madman, not a smart leader. I will not be unhappy if/when he gets the Mussolini treatment from a desperate, starving populace.

The reason why Mugabe 'redistibuted' the land in the first place was that his party was losing popularity and there was an election coming up. It wasn't an arbitrary decision. In fact it was a broadly popular one.

Wonder if it's still a popular move.

/heh

Here we see first hand the results of using political band-aids. It's an election year, and I've done a bad job. Let me do a stop gap measure to boost popularity and have things be far worse when after the election, because we needed something other than a band-aid. This is of course a cycle and applies to companies that cook books.

Sadly a lot of the aid for Africa that wasn't given in the past 15 or so years created much of the problem we see here. We poured money and food into the area which was stolen by corrupt governments and if it made it to the people, increased populations... making starvation even more likely in the future.

I see one potential strategy (with many, many issues). Many of these 'leaders' live in opulent wealth while the citizenry lives in complete poverty. Solution? If you are by all accounts a malevolent dictator, a non-partisan group decides the palace gets bombed. You accumulate more wealth? It gets destroyed.

Of course you can't really remove power, just wealth, so some who simply like power would still remain. The unfortunate truth is that much of Africa is caught in a power struggle between relative giants, while the common people suffer horribly for it. It isn't unlike gangs without any police around; the only way to get out of it is to join, which only fuels the conflict farther. There is a lack of basic rights, especially property rights, which hinders what has brought many other areas out of poverty - the free market.

Until the world decides it will provide police for Africa, I hold a grim view on this cycle stopping. The new policies on aid can help somewhat, but we'll see if it's enough.

IT'S WHITEY'S FAULT!

sapper_pig: IT'S WHITEY'S FAULT!

I was enjoying the serious dialogue on the situation, a rarity for Fark. And then comes this trolling assbag.

FLMountainMan

It's not as "troll-y" as you'd think -- That's honestly the rational Mugabe portrays to Zimbabwe's citizenry.

- R

Super_pope: What's sad is they used to be doing really well. Then they chased out all the white people who knew how to be farmers, on the assumption that basically untrained peasants partisan cronies would be able to do it better with tiny plots and limited experience.

FTFY

degreeless: wine

+1

MayoBoy: Is it the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, or something else that makes that entire continent batshiat crazy?

Tribalism.

I was in Joberg a few years ago and met a couple of well-to-do Zim girls. It was a few beers before I got the balls up to ask them how on earth they managed to afford to come across to South Africa for a weekend shopping trip. Turned out their Dad help a position in Mugabe's government and all their money was in banks in South Africa.

About 5 minutes later they gave me this note as a souvenir, they couldnt stop laughing at the fact that their bills had expiry dates on them.

altinos: If only they had oil...

Thanatos_10: Here we see first hand the results of using political band-aids. It's an election year, and I've done a bad job. Let me do a stop gap measure to boost popularity and have things be far worse when after the election, because we needed something other than a band-aid. This is of course a cycle and applies to companies that cook books.

To what do you refer? If you mean the land redistribution then it isn't as simple as people seem to think. The War Veterans weren't under Mugabes control enough for him to implement the much more structured redistribution he had planned. As much as Mugabe is, rightly, destined for his own special layer in the hot hereafter he was kind of swept along in the momentum. I can't believe you think the incarceration of Tsvangirai was designed to boost his popularity. Mugabe and his lackies are far more concerned with quashing resistance, which is what this is.

Sadly a lot of the aid for Africa that wasn't given in the past 15 or so years created much of the problem we see here. We poured money and food into the area which was stolen by corrupt governments and if it made it to the people, increased populations... making starvation even more likely in the future.

15 years isn't a very long period of time in the development of a society. Theory would indicate that birth rates would decrease as food became more readily available, as infant mortality rates would decline. This will take generations to be seen and, as you say, in the meantime starvation would increase. Either way purchasing and shipping food is not sustainable over generations.

The real problems come from short term solutions. For instance this 'no child left behind' thing has resulted in plenty of schools and even quite a few teachers. However there aren't enough books, or paper, or pencils, so it's largely been a wasted effort. Aid agencies arrive in outlying villages lay water pipes, build a pump and then believe x village is now blessed with clean water. That works fine until the pipe bursts, or the pump breaks and the villagers realise they don't have the skills to repair it.

I'm also not convinced that free market reforms are they way forward for lots of areas, at least in the short form. For instance, a farmer in Lesotho receives aid to grown corn. Sounds good. However at the same time bread and grain products are being imported from western countries at a price which our plucky Lesotho farmer simply can't match. So the incentive to grow it is gone.

I see one potential strategy (with many, many issues). Many of these 'leaders' live in opulent wealth while the citizenry lives in complete poverty. Solution? If you are by all accounts a malevolent dictator, a non-partisan group decides the palace gets bombed. You accumulate more wealth? It gets destroyed.

Of course you can't really remove power, just wealth, so some who simply like power would still remain. The unfortunate truth is that much of Africa is caught in a power struggle between relative giants, while the common people suffer horribly for it. It isn't unlike gangs without any police around; the only way to get out of it is to join, which only fuels the conflict farther. There is a lack of basic rights, especially property rights, which hinders what has brought many other areas out of poverty - the free market.

Until the world decides it will provide police for Africa, I hold a grim view on this cycle stopping. The new policies on aid can help somewhat, but we'll see if it's enough.

I'm sorry but just plain no. For starters there isn't one solution that will work across the continent. I've spent years travelling the southern part of Africa and it isn't a great deal like you describe. Most of the 'common people' are so far removed from the power struggles that they really aren't that badly affected. When you are a subsistence farmer in an idyllic but remote area all that matters is your meelie and your cattle.

With the free market reforms occurring in South Africa we've seen an oligopoly form and I'm not sure that is significantly better. Sure a lot of that is down to corruption, which is a huge problem. I've always been of the opinion that trickle down economics will be much more effective, provided *cough* the money is kept in the right race. The Zulu / Xhosa concept (for instance) of family is hugely encompassing, coupled with the concept of Ubuntu (it's not just a flavour of Linux) it leads to a fairly wide distribution of wealth.

Basically I believe if there are solutions to the problems in many African countries they will have to be African solutions, not Western ones.


/[Insert World Police joke here]
//Wooaahh, sorry for the text wall.

Super_pope: biobot: No Such Agency: Super_pope:
What's sad is they used to be doing really well. Then they chased out all the white people who knew how to be farmers, on the assumption that basically untrained peasants would be able to do it better with tiny plots and limited experience.

A smart leader would have had it both ways - allow the white farmers to keep growing, and tapped their expertise to train the "war veterans" etc. to actually become decent farmers on other land. But of course Mugabe is a race-baiting madman, not a smart leader. I will not be unhappy if/when he gets the Mussolini treatment from a desperate, starving populace.

The reason why Mugabe 'redistibuted' the land in the first place was that his party was losing popularity and there was an election coming up. It wasn't an arbitrary decision. In fact it was a broadly popular one.

Wonder if it's still a popular move.

/heh

If I remember, it was very popular move here in the US with the "social justice" crowd. Zimbabwe used to be one of Africa's biggest exporters of food, feeding all the nations around them, as Ethiopia once was in the 60's. Both countries are now war-torn shiat-holes.

Africa can feed itself if given the chance.

YupThazMe:
....
/heh

If I remember, it was very popular move here in the US with the "social justice" crowd. Zimbabwe used to be one of Africa's biggest exporters of food, feeding all the nations around them, as Ethiopia once was in the 60's. Both countries are now war-torn shiat-holes.

Africa can feed itself if given the chance.


It could, as it is rich in natural resources and tillable land, however, it's a prime example of what decades of greed, ignorance, division, exploitation and Islam can do.

Africa's problem is that it's full of Africans... we need to cease ALL foreign aid to the continent, let them starve and fight their ethnic wars.

spyderqueen: Alternately, if he really really wanted to strip the whites of their land, he could have let the black farmhands that had been taking care of the white owned farms have them since they actually KNEW how to farm instead of just giving them to his war cronies

THIS.

They've been doing land redistribution in South Africa, too, but the fallout hasn't been nearly as tragic as what's happened in Zimbabwe.

degreeless: YupThazMe:
....
/heh

If I remember, it was very popular move here in the US with the "social justice" crowd. Zimbabwe used to be one of Africa's biggest exporters of food, feeding all the nations around them, as Ethiopia once was in the 60's. Both countries are now war-torn shiat-holes.

Africa can feed itself if given the chance.


It could, as it is rich in natural resources and tillable land, however, it's a prime example of what decades of greed, ignorance, division, exploitation and Islam can do.

In case you were being serious:

Wrong end of the continent dear, the Muslim population of Zimbabwe is less then 1%.

Quick guide: Southern bit = Christian, Northern bit = Islam

biobot: Although you must ask yourself why Mbeki isn't doing anything to alleviate the situation.

The problem is that Mugabe is in some sense a "hero" to many of the African leaders, since he was one of the people who heavily fought against colonial rule. Ergo, these heroes can do no wrong.

The more I think about it the more I think Mugabe doesn't even think he's rigging the elections. He feels Tsvangirai is an enemy of Zimbabwe and he's simply doing his "duty" to get rid of all his country's "enemies".

/realizing i can basically put quotes on every word
//like leaders, heroes, elections, enemy, country, etc.

The Voice of Sarcastic Reason: spyderqueen: Alternately, if he really really wanted to strip the whites of their land, he could have let the black farmhands that had been taking care of the white owned farms have them since they actually KNEW how to farm instead of just giving them to his war cronies

THIS.

They've been doing land redistribution in South Africa, too, but the fallout hasn't been nearly as tragic as what's happened in Zimbabwe.

Rubbish. The only land reform in SA has been on a 'willing buyer, willing seller' basis. The government has been purchasing land, at market value, from white farmers and then redistributing it. 80% of the arable land is white owned, 4% of it has been redistributed through this method. There have been calls for the government to speed up the process. Mbeki, Zuma, the ANC and AgriSa have all said the land grab route would be a disaster. It hasn't happened and it won't happen.

It was looking a little dicey for a moment but that was 3/4 years ago.

DancingJester: Rubbish. The only land reform in SA has been on a 'willing buyer, willing seller' basis. The government has been purchasing land, at market value, from white farmers and then redistributing it. 80% of the arable land is white owned, 4% of it has been redistributed through this method. There have been calls for the government to speed up the process. Mbeki, Zuma, the ANC and AgriSa have all said the land grab route would be a disaster. It hasn't happened and it won't happen.

It was looking a little dicey for a moment but that was 3/4 years ago.

Right, but they're still moving towards the same outcome, in a slow, controlled way that doesn't cause the country to fall apart. That's all I was trying to say.

DancingJester: Quick guide: Southern bit = Christian, Northern bit = Islam

Ultimately the same thing, in Africa. Different names, same special African brand of killing people who don't agree with the particular book you believe in.

Seriously, though, there is absolutely no valid reason why Africa should not be the biggest economic force in the world right now, except for petty tribalism (which, in some parts actually IS whiteys fault, see Tutsis and Hutus[sp?]), and corruption on a scale not seen anywhere else in the world.

And the saddest thing is that there are very few viable options on how to fix things. It's the kind of situation where no matter what happens, short of a major shift in the thinking of the people, someone will get screwed.

they're also denying food aid to members of the opposition party unless those members give up their voter ID cards.

Lusiphur: Seriously, though, there is absolutely no valid reason why Africa should not be the biggest economic force in the world right now, except for petty tribalism (which, in some parts actually IS whiteys fault, see Tutsis and Hutus[sp?]), and corruption on a scale not seen anywhere else in the world.

And the saddest thing is that there are very few viable options on how to fix things. It's the kind of situation where no matter what happens, short of a major shift in the thinking of the people, someone will get screwed.

If tribalism is the problem, does that mean nationalism is the cure? If the average person's "in-group" was simply more all-encompassing, would Africa's problems slowly dissipate?

My guess is that in a world without AIDS, that might be the case. But even if people put aside their tribal differences, it's going to take a lot of outside help to overcome the massive societal burden of so many sick people.