Of course not. Minor government employees can edit student's personal off-campus expressions of their thoughts. Whats not to understand about that?

US Second Circuit Court of Appeals is packed with douchebags.

arkansas: Whats not to understand about that?

It doesn't make sense, but the logic is that minors are not legally capable of exercising their rights, and therefore adults must do that for them, or curtail them in this case.

I read this in the Hartford Courant earlier last week. The school isn't doing anything to curtail her speech; they're not allowing her to be the class leader. Its no different than calling your boss a douchebag on a blog, he finds out about it, then getting fired for it. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

Not quite agreeing with the school, since regardless of this, the students still voted her to be the class leader after she was taken off the ballot by the school. The students want her to be their leader (for various reasons), but why would the school want to work with someone who has that point of view, or even have someone in a representative position that seems to be aggressive towards the school?

The story also leaves this out: The reason why they were called douchebags is because they canceled an event (possibly for budget reasons, iirc) that she planned. Perhaps this will be a life lesson for her when she gets to the real world. Just because something doesn't go your way, don't go around slamming everyone else because you feel disappointed. There will be consequences that you'll have to deal with.

Of course, now that I've RTFA, it's an even better scenario: the student is still free to exercise his 1st Amendment rights, but so are the faculty of the school.

I've always held that the 1st Amendment doesn't protect one's sensibilities. We all have the right to say what we want, but we shouldn't be surprised if folks get all pissy about it.

Here's a link to the full story about the little douchette. (new window)

I disagree with this... What happens when a bunch of kids are overheard in a pizza joint talking about a teacher, etc. and how douchey they are. Will they get penalized for that?

AuntofDogface: I disagree with this... What happens when a bunch of kids are overheard in a pizza joint talking about a teacher, etc. and how douchey they are. Will they get penalized for that?

She wasn't just a student, she was class secretary. Silicon Alley has a habit of leaving out details in their 'news' blogs.

Oh, and to top it off, she also encouraged all of the students calling up the one of the faculty members, presumably at home, just to "piss her off more".

The way around this is to phrase it more eloquently.

AuntofDogface: I disagree with this... What happens when a bunch of kids are overheard in a pizza joint talking about a teacher, etc. and how douchey they are. Will they get penalized for that?

A reasonably private conversation is one thing, even if it is held in a public place. But what if the kid had done the real world equivalent of a blog post and posted her opinion on handbills all over the city? Or managed to get a letter to the editor published in the local city paper? Then it wouldn't be so private anymore, would it?

Because People in power are Stupid: The way around this is to phrase it more eloquently.

Bingo. She was in a position that required her to be more mature than the average high schooler (not hard by any means), and she failed. Like I said, maybe she'll learn her lesson. Too bad her parents are only encouraging "Precious Little Snowflake" behavior, and wasting the court's time with this bullshiat.

amo: arkansas: Whats not to understand about that?

It doesn't make sense, but the logic is that minors are not legally capable of exercising their rights, and therefore adults must do that for them, or curtail them in this case.

Sure, but I tend to give any benefit of doubt to the citizen over the government. A government official should have a fairly high burden when curtailing the exercise of rights....and these days it seems pretty much zero tolerance on a whim.

amo: Or managed to get a letter to the editor published in the local city paper?

That would be funny, a student kicked out of school for getting a letter to the editor published. I would laugh, but it will probably happen.

FTFA: "Specifically, they she couldn't be class secretary"


they she couldn't be
who me?
don't you see?

you'll rue the day
you'll pay!
or what....my name is ray
listen to what I say
maybe I should eat some hay
down by the bay, huh?



/author of the article is a hack douchebag

arkansas: Sure, but I tend to give any benefit of doubt to the citizen over the government. A government official should have a fairly high burden when curtailing the exercise of rights....and these days it seems pretty much zero tolerance on a whim.

I agree with you. The person(s) responsible for monitoring and allowing/disallowing the judicial exercise of a minor's rights is the parent, not the government, and most certainly not the faculty of the minor's school. However, in this case, the school was well within its own 1st Amendment rights to withdraw the kid's eligibility for student government, as I'm sure there is some ethical or moral clause in the rules somewhere.

It's not a violation of your First Amendment rights if school administrators retaliate against you for calling them douchebags, the US Second Circuit Court of Appeals says.

absolutely correct.

Then again, there's also nothing that says that the douchebag should get to keep his job either. welcome to politics 101 kids! here's where you get to make your douchebag adminstrators life a living hell! letter writing campaigns, 'leaked' memos, elections and roberts rules of order!

Get 'em!

even high school students have the right to call whomever they please "douchebag". Their hygienic products. it's a compliment! :p

People sometimes hallucinate that the First Amendment not only gives you the right to say whatever boneheaded or offensive stuff you want--but means that your saying it won't have any personal or professional consequences (such as other people suddenly regarding you as a moron). It doesn't.

It's moran....you douchenozzle

RoxtarRyan: but why would the school want to work with someone who has that point of view, or even have someone in a representative position that seems to be aggressive towards the school?

Maybe just maybe the person she called a douchebag really is a douchebag, and the school should do something about them?

She was in a position that required her to be more mature than the average high schooler (not hard by any means), and she failed

The school is also in that position, or rather much more so, and it has totally failed.

Barnacles!: FTFA: "Specifically, they she couldn't be class secretary"


they she couldn't be
who me?
don't you see?

you'll rue the day
you'll pay!
or what....my name is ray
listen to what I say
maybe I should eat some hay
down by the bay, huh?



/author of the article is a hack douchebag

NATM?

It basically boils down to this.

An adult in a power position got his feelings hurt because a child called him a name. Instead of letting it go and acting like a confident and secure adult, they got offended and took retribution by taking away a perk from the child.

There were dozens of possible ways that the adult could have handled it. The fact that this story is on Fark shows that they chose poorly.

/same goes for childs parents
//sometimes its better to have the hard talk then to break out checkbook

amo: However, in this case, the school was well within its own 1st Amendment rights to withdraw the kid's eligibility for student government,

No they weren't. The schools whole position is "you're a meany! wahhhhhhhhhhhh".

Talking smack sometimes gets ya smacked.

RoxtarRyan: Its no different than calling your boss a douchebag on a blog, he finds out about it, then getting fired for it.

Ohh, and it's very very different. A public school employee is an agent of the state. A boss at a private sector employer? Not at all. Therefore what protections are in place are different. Though any boss who would fire an employee for calling the a douchebag, has pretty well earned the title anyways.

A REAL man or woman would have asked the child for a moment of her time, explain that they saw online that the child thought they were a 'douchebag', and what exactly did she mean?

Then they could have asked her if she thought it was a nice thing to do, and would she like someone to say that about HER.

And finally, they could have explained that nobody is perfect, but that they were doing their best at their job that they could,
and that it was hurtful to be called a 'douchebag' in a public forum.

SHE probably would have 'gotten it' and changed her mind.


/if not, put up a fake website with the student photoshopped as a Dominatrix hooker, including her telephone number

She deserved to be disqualified from the student election, not because she collectively referred to school administrators as "douchebags", but because

She encouraged others to write or call Schwartz "to piss her off more."

Isn't it illegal to incite harassment?

My problem with this is that she didn't call him a douchebag on school grounds, she did it on her home computer. This is no different than the school teacher over hearing the student saying it outside of school grounds and punishing her for it. What this case says is that the jurisdiction of the school expands past the campus and to the student's internet activities while she's at home. Had she typed up the blog on a school computer, that would be different.

This is similar to a couple of months ago at work. The boss was riding everyone in my department, complete asinine shiat. When I got home, I was still pissed so I went on a walk, went to a near by 7-11 where I let off some steam by talking to the guy in line behind me about the bullshiat at work, then the boss (turns out, we live in the same area) walked in and over heard my conversation. The next day at work, he asked me if my conversation at 7-11 was anything that he needed to know about. I told him, "I was off the clock and off company property, so what I was talking about is none of your concern, as is everything I do off company time and property." I was fired later that week, part of their argument for firing me was that he over heard me call him "My stoned out douche bag boss.", even though I never actually named him, my company, or even pointed him out to anyone in the 7-11.


But I do have to ask the question, why was the teacher reading the student's blog?

DOUCHE FIGHT!!!

It's called "in loco parentis" (wikipedia)

and it means "in place of a douchebag."

The reality is that the civil liberties of children have had both feet in the dumpster for quite some time. Adult civil liberties are, no doubt, soon to follow.

Great Janitor: But I do have to ask the question, why was the teacher reading the student's blog?

She made her views public, and the teachers are part of the public. If she had a lick of common sense, she'd set her blog to be read by friends only, or limit who has access to it in some other way.

What's the consequence of using the word douchebag way to farking much? I think fark should be changed to douchebag.com. Massingill.

There is plenty of douchebaggery at work here.

The founding fathers could never have envisioned the level of todays complete douchery. The Doucification of America, as I call it.
I can't get through a day without seeing, running into, or even talking to a complete douche. In fact, I have been... on occasion, accused of being a total douchebag myself...though I disagree.

So, where do we go from here? Strip douchebags everywhere of their positions in life? Don't allow douches to breed? Have special "douche-housing" projects? No my friends...that is not the American way. We must embrace our douchy brothers and sisters. Have an "I Love Douche Bags" day. "Hug-a-bag" t-shirts and pins. Stand up for that lil douche in all of us.

Douchebags...I salute you.

Asking her school mates to write and call the principal in... protest! *gasp*

How dare she try and get the student body to share their opinions?

The douchebags ought to know you can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar.

RoxtarRyan: Great Janitor: But I do have to ask the question, why was the teacher reading the student's blog?

She made her views public, and the teachers are part of the public. If she had a lick of common sense, she'd set her blog to be read by friends only, or limit who has access to it in some other way.

Was the blog part of her myspace page? If so, then I have to still wonder, really, why was the teacher looking at it? Is part of being a teacher in the 21st century to visit the myspace pages by your students and read their blogs? Was the teacher a regular visitor or was he just checking up on the student to make sure she didn't take their little fight further?

davynelson: A REAL man or woman would have asked the child for a moment of her time, explain that they saw online that the child thought they were a 'douchebag', and what exactly did she mean?

Then they could have asked her if she thought it was a nice thing to do, and would she like someone to say that about HER.

And finally, they could have explained that nobody is perfect, but that they were doing their best at their job that they could,
and that it was hurtful to be called a 'douchebag' in a public forum.

SHE probably would have 'gotten it' and changed her mind.


/if not, put up a fake website with the student photoshopped as a Dominatrix hooker, including her telephone number

Then they could color pictures and make macaroni necklaces...

What kind of girl's name is Avery? She should be calling her parents douchebags.

One should have the right to say stupid things. The Dixie Chicks said that bad stuff about Bush that time. They had the right to say it. But fans had the right to boycott them too.

A student (friend of an ex) did something similar on his page, attacking the music teacher. The school suspended him even though he did not do it on school computers or while at school. He sued, won, got reinstated, suspension removed from his transcripts, and even cash in his pocket - basically the school paid enough to guarantee a 4 year education free at most of the expensive schools.

So it seems the courts are split on this issue, does a student have free speech while not at school on their own time and using their own resources. I think the answer should be an overwhelming yes, although slander/libel are not included in "free speech". If its a private school there are other aspects since the first amendment *only* limits the governments ability to censor speech, not private entities. Public schools are in essence government entities since they are funded with government dollars, run by the government school board, etc.

You guys are displaying a miraculous lack of comprehension of the basic principle of Free Speech. The Free Marketplace of Ideas means I get to call you a douchebag, you get to call me a douchebag - and we both get to express the opinion that the other person should be fired for saying so.

But if you actually fire that person... You've missed the point of Free Speech.

Get it?

Or should I say, "Git it?"

Randomly: An adult in a power position got his feelings hurt because a child called him a name. Instead of letting it go and acting like a confident and secure adult, they got offended and took retribution by taking away a perk from the child.

Sounds like the adult gave the child a life lesson that "in real life" calling people douchebags has consequences. Especially when that person is in a position of power over you, and you're shouting it from the rooftops.

/don't know how I feel about this case
//my parents wouldn't have sued had this been me
///probably would've kicked my ass for calling an adult a douchebag

Great Janitor: RoxtarRyan: Great Janitor: But I do have to ask the question, why was the teacher reading the student's blog?

She made her views public, and the teachers are part of the public. If she had a lick of common sense, she'd set her blog to be read by friends only, or limit who has access to it in some other way.

Was the blog part of her myspace page? If so, then I have to still wonder, really, why was the teacher looking at it? Is part of being a teacher in the 21st century to visit the myspace pages by your students and read their blogs? Was the teacher a regular visitor or was he just checking up on the student to make sure she didn't take their little fight further?

It wouldn't make a difference whether the school was reading it because they felt like being intrusive, or reading it out of mere curiosity. The fact remains that by making her views public in a blog that is attached to her name and face, she might as well have printed out flyers and handed them out at the edge of school property to anyone who was going there.

Her actions against the people she worked with (as most student leadership positions work closely with the faculty) were aggressive, and the fact remains that she did encourage all the students to harass the faculty members. That alone would have been enough to have her removed from her position.

amo: Of course, now that I've RTFA, it's an even better scenario: the student is still free to exercise his 1st Amendment rights, but so are the faculty of the school.

I've always held that the 1st Amendment doesn't protect one's sensibilities. We all have the right to say what we want, but we shouldn't be surprised if folks get all pissy about it.

Damn right.

RoxtarRyan: She wasn't just a student, she was class secretary. Silicon Alley has a habit of leaving out details in their 'news' blogs.
So? Saying something someone doesn't like is not grounds to punish someone in this manner.

RoxtarRyan: Oh, and to top it off, she also encouraged all of the students calling up the one of the faculty members, presumably at home, just to "piss her off more".
NOW we're getting somewhere... this reason alone is why she should lose her position.

♫ Little pink hoses for you and me... ♫

Good to see our tax dollars hard at work.

trixter_nl: So it seems the courts are split on this issue, does a student have free speech while not at school on their own time and using their own resources.

Yup. That's why in the link posted by RoxtarRyan above, it says:

The case did not allow the court to consider "whether a different, more serious consequence than disqualification from student office would raise constitutional concerns," the ruling stated.

So the decision might well have gone differently had she been suspended, rather than simply barred from being class secretary. A position, the court noted, that required a record of good citizenship under school policy (and common sense). Is publicly calling school officials "douchebags" and encouraging people to call an official "to piss her off" consistent with good citizenship? You decide.

RoxtarRyan: Great Janitor: RoxtarRyan: Great Janitor: But I do have to ask the question, why was the teacher reading the student's blog?

She made her views public, and the teachers are part of the public. If she had a lick of common sense, she'd set her blog to be read by friends only, or limit who has access to it in some other way.

Was the blog part of her myspace page? If so, then I have to still wonder, really, why was the teacher looking at it? Is part of being a teacher in the 21st century to visit the myspace pages by your students and read their blogs? Was the teacher a regular visitor or was he just checking up on the student to make sure she didn't take their little fight further?

It wouldn't make a difference whether the school was reading it because they felt like being intrusive, or reading it out of mere curiosity. The fact remains that by making her views public in a blog that is attached to her name and face, she might as well have printed out flyers and handed them out at the edge of school property to anyone who was going there.

Her actions against the people she worked with (as most student leadership positions work closely with the faculty) were aggressive, and the fact remains that she did encourage all the students to harass the faculty members. That alone would have been enough to have her removed from her position.

Do you have any evidence that she encouraged her classmates to do anything? All the article mentions is that she wrote a blog and called him a name, thus, the impression becomes that the school feels that it's authority extends to what students do in their free time off of campus.

RoxtarRyan:Oh, and to top it off, she also encouraged all of the students calling up the one of the faculty members, presumably at home, just to "piss her off more".

Must be a Digger.