I'm kinda hoping for Al Gore

Barack, never make a deal with the devil.

Let's be pragmatic folks - it probably really is the only way to unify the party. And beating McCain is FAR more important at this point than playing out petty primary fights.

She's run a piss-poor campaign, but so have a lot of other people who later became VP. And never has the party been this vehemently divided.

Just give her the second tier and be done with it.

"this biatch made me stick with her for a year and a half, the only meaningful relationship i've ever had. now i can't ever talk to her again.

i came in here wanting funny links, or ideas for good drinks.

all i got was shiatheads like you assuming i'm some kind of emo assbag crying and cutting myself while listening to linkin park."

MacEnvy: Just give her the second tier and be done with it.

And kill any chance he has of picking up the moderates?

jbc: "this biatch made me stick with her for a year and a half, the only meaningful relationship i've ever had. now i can't ever talk to her again.

i came in here wanting funny links, or ideas for good drinks.

all i got was shiatheads like you assuming i'm some kind of emo assbag crying and cutting myself while listening to linkin park."

OK, I just came from that thread, and that made me LOL.

EvilEgg: And kill any chance he has of picking up the moderates?

I think you vastly underestimate centrists' displeasure with the Bush/McCain foreign policy doctrine. And while Senator Clinton has high disapproval ratings, having her as second on the ticket should mitigate that to some extent.

MacEnvy: Let's be pragmatic folks - it probably really is the only way to unify the party. And beating McCain is FAR more important at this point than playing out petty primary fights.

She's run a piss-poor campaign, but so have a lot of other people who later became VP. And never has the party been this vehemently divided.

Just give her the second tier and be done with it.

Except that

1. Obama's Indie and Obamacan voters will never vote for him with her on the ticket and her Appalachians won't vote for Obama just because there's a white woman as his Veep.

2. Bill is a loose cannon

3. Who the hell wants to get dragged down by the Clinton's baggage?

4. Hillary's scorched earth campaign has left behind too many youtube clips that the Repubs would use against an Obama/Clinton ticket.

5. The Clinton's derived all their true political power from Black community leaders and rich Dems living in LA and NY. They have burnt those bridges out of spite.

6. Hillary's campaign is an economic disaster.

7. Mark Penn

8. Mark Penn

9. Mark Penn

It would be a sure fire way for the Dems to lose which is why the neocon trolls are still pushing this silly meme long after it has ceased to be relevant.

quickdraw:
1. Obama's Indie and Obamacan voters will never vote for him with her on the ticket and her Appalachians won't vote for Obama just because there's a white woman as his Veep.

That's just as bogus as saying half of her voters won't vote for Obama either way. Really, it's ridiculous. If you won't vote for Barack just because Hillary is VP, then you really had no concept of what his campaign was about in the first place, and I'd be doubtful that you were EVER actually going to vote for him.

Really, that's a ridiculous thing to say.

What possible benefit can she bring?

Name me ONE STATE that Obama can get with Hillary Clinton?

WV? KY? No. He's not getting those states. There is NO electoral math that is useful in this, and Hillary doesn't *want* to be VP, it's a powerless job unless your Dick Cheney, and Obama won't LET her be Dick Cheney!

MacEnvy: quickdraw:
1. Obama's Indie and Obamacan voters will never vote for him with her on the ticket and her Appalachians won't vote for Obama just because there's a white woman as his Veep.

That's just as bogus as saying half of her voters won't vote for Obama either way. Really, it's ridiculous. If you won't vote for Barack just because Hillary is VP, then you really had no concept of what his campaign was about in the first place, and I'd be doubtful that you were EVER actually going to vote for him.

Really, that's a ridiculous thing to say.

No its not and this is why. I am voting for Obama because he understands that modern politics require modern methods. He has run his campaign completely differently than the Clinton's ran hers. She is so entrenched with Mark Penn and his ilk that she has destroyed her own ability to campaign effectively.

While their platforms aren't vastly different on the surface their methods of achieving their goals are. Their divergent styles would create so much conflict that nothing would get done.

what_now: Name me ONE STATE that Obama can get with Hillary Clinton?

I know you only asked for one, but...

Pennsylvania
Ohio
Florida
Possibly Arkansas

I'm excluding Michigan and Wisconsin because I think Obama would get them regardless of his VP choice. The top three are very much in-play come November, and Arkansas would be a cherry on top.

BKITU:
Pennsylvania
Ohio

Won't be voting for McCain.

Florida? No idea, but I don't think Obama will NEED it. Also, Arkansas has like...2 electoral votes.

You need to throw out the old electoral maps: I think Obama will be able to win more states than a Democrat has in a while, but they may not be the traditional states.

McCain has a huuuuuge problem: He won't attract independents, and he CAN'T get the base.

Technically speaking, if he was killed within 30 days it'd be December - still 1 month from the swearing-in.

/i'm such a jerk

BKITU: Arkansas would be a cherry on top.

Now that's an interesting question. Arkansas has been Hillary's best state (I believe, might be wrong), and lots of people here would vote for any Clinton out of hometown pride. It usually goes red for Presidents, but a Clinton plus a strong GOTV in the delta might do it.

Didn't this get brought up once before, subby?

Oh yeah (new window)...

Who mentioned it? Why ME of course...

what_now: BKITU:
Pennsylvania
Ohio

Won't be voting for McCain.

Pennsylvania... maybe. Ohio? I think you underestimate the Cincinnati factor.


what_now: You need to throw out the old electoral maps: I think Obama will be able to win more states than a Democrat has in a while, but they may not be the traditional states.

Agreed, but if the electoral votes of those states only add up to 200, he's farked.

People keep thinking that Clinton adds nothing to the ticket. Politically speaking, that's correct. The issue, however, is in marketing the ticket. Clinton has name recognition, and legions of voters loyal to the brand. A significant portion of the population have less-than-rational reasons for casting their ballots; that doesn't mean that pooh-poohing their votes isn't political suicide.

I'm pretty sure that even though she won't get top billing, her fans would hold their nose and vote for "their girl" and then hope that something bad happens to Obama.

what_now: What possible benefit can she bring?

Didn't you know?

If you restate any problem in its broadest terms it becomes simple. Whether or not it is accurate is another matter. But try this one:

Question: which of the two presidential candidates can: i) unite the party, and ii) win the general election?

Without laying out all the evidence isnt the answer obvious? Hillary Rodham Clinton. Frankly, Barack can do neither.


You can guess where this came from...

Ryan2065: You can guess where this came from...

Can't be HillaryIs44. They'd have called him "Bambi" or "Waffles" or some other third-grade bullshiat.

BKITU: Can't be HillaryIs44. They'd have called him "Bambi" or "Waffles" or some other third-grade bullshiat.

There could have been editing done to try to convince the masses here. It does read like Hillaryis44 though.

There remains one easy way for Barack Obama to throw away the Presidency, and that is to make Hillary his VP. She is the most divisive person on the Democratic side of politics, and she has said way too much stupid shiat that will be thrown against her.

BKITU: Can't be HillaryIs44. They'd have called him "Bambi" or "Waffles" or some other third-grade bullshiat.

Some do and some don't. The reasoning skills they display are a dead giveaway though...

GAT_00: There could have been editing done to try to convince the masses here. It does read like Hillaryis44 though.

No reason to edit the crazy that is Hillaryis44

Ryan2065: Some do and some don't. The reasoning skills they display are a dead giveaway though...

Oh. It's Suicidal Writer isn't it?

quickdraw: No its not and this is why. I am voting for Obama because he understands that modern politics require modern methods. He has run his campaign completely differently than the Clinton's ran hers. She is so entrenched with Mark Penn and his ilk that she has destroyed her own ability to campaign effectively.

While their platforms aren't vastly different on the surface their methods of achieving their goals are. Their divergent styles would create so much conflict that nothing would get done.

But you still seem to be assuming that the VP actually does something. The only Constitutionally-mandated activities the Veep is responsible for are breaking ties in the Senate. Obama doesn't have to let her have any say in anything if he doesn't want to.

If I were Obama, I'd give her control of health care planning (which, of course, would require presidential approval once finalized anyway) and let her do her thing. It would keep her out of the way, give her something (potentially) productive to do, keep her voter base happy, and allow for reunification of the party under a common banner.

That's the way these things work, and I'm not sure it can play out any other way and still give him a good margin for victory in November.

I swear he gets his stuff from there.

Walker: Barack, never make a deal with the devil.

Goddammit Walker! I'm posting this shiat anyways.

The minute Obama announces Hillary as his veep, The Clintons will start to undermine him. Before the November election, they'll do so behind the scenes so he doesn't win--that way, they can shore up the 2012 nomination. If Obama does win, they will be doing everything they can to elevate the VP position to that of co-Pres (or, in this case, a triumvirate). She is going to want to be front-and-center, and would never allow herself to be perceived as being subordinate to Obama and his agenda.

To add insult to injury for Obama, every night, Michelle Obama will lay in bed next to him and rip him a new on over giving her a toehold in his administration and then letting her walk all over him...

Is Obama REALLY ready to sign up for 4-8 years of that?

My question is: what do I do with my concession champagne if she is VP? Drink it anyways? Smash it over my head?

hillbillypharmacist: My question is: what do I do with my concession champagne if she is VP? Drink it anyways? Smash it over my head?

Never, EVER let booze go to waste!

/"pouring one out" is the only exception

MacEnvy: If I were Obama, I'd give her control of health care planning (which, of course, would require presidential approval once finalized anyway) and let her do her thing.

Why not just make her the secretary of health and human services. No need to make her VP to give her influence over that aspect of policy.

I wonder if he wouldn't take Edwards. Name recognition and no polarization.

MacEnvy: But you still seem to be assuming that the VP actually does something. The only Constitutionally-mandated activities the Veep is responsible for are breaking ties in the Senate. Obama doesn't have to let her have any say in anything if he doesn't want to.

If I were Obama, I'd give her control of health care planning (which, of course, would require presidential approval once finalized anyway) and let her do her thing. It would keep her out of the way, give her something (potentially) productive to do, keep her voter base happy, and allow for reunification of the party under a common banner.

That's the way these things work, and I'm not sure it can play out any other way and still give him a good margin for victory in November.

He can't have her as Veep or as any member of his cabinet because she is a media magnet - and not in a good way. Any batshiat thing she or Bill says is news. They have become the Anna Nicole Smiths of the political world. Self absorbed, arrogant and unable to relinquish the limelight even when it is in their own best interest to do so.

There is not a single Obama supporter who thinks the Clinton's would be an asset. If he wants a good veep to deal with healthcare reform he could pick Sebelius. She has actually done some good work in that area. She is a white female pro-choice Catholic from the heartland. She has all of Hillary's strengths and none of her liabilities. She would be a far better choice.

hillbillypharmacist: My question is: what do I do with my concession champagne if she is VP? Drink it anyways? Smash it over my head?

BKITU is right, no wasting booze. Drink it, then smash the empty bottle over your head. I'll be smashing things over my head if Hillary is the pick. The Clintons should have nothing to do with this election.

NittLion78: I wonder if he wouldn't take Edwards. Name recognition and no polarization.

Too young, and also a senator. Two senators is a tough ticket.

The more I think of Wesley Clark as Veep, the more I like it. He's got the military thing like Webb, but Webb's experience is lower and he's a very junior senator as well. Add the NATO command gig and you've got the foreign relations thing (which he could also get from Biden). Clark seems to me to be the nexus of all the factors the other possibilities for veep could provide.

Hi, I'm Vince Foster and I just wanted to let you know that I am endorsing the Obama/Clinton ticket.

/wouldn't be the first time a dead Democrat voted.

BillCo: Hi, I'm Vince Foster and I just wanted to let you know that I am endorsing the Obama/Clinton ticket.

This.

Though, everyone knows Hillary was the only one with the balls to pull the trigger.

I don't Hillary anywhere near the Naval Observatory.

BravadoGT: The minute Obama announces Hillary as his veep, The Clintons will start to undermine him. Before the November election, they'll do so behind the scenes so he doesn't win--that way, they can shore up the 2012 nomination. If Obama does win, they will be doing everything they can to elevate the VP position to that of co-Pres (or, in this case, a triumvirate). She is going to want to be front-and-center, and would never allow herself to be perceived as being subordinate to Obama and his agenda.

Bing. Hold on the "she'd cap him" conspiracy theory. The "she'd kneecap him so she could run in 2012" theory is even more realistic.

I'd have (reluctantly) voted for a democratically-nominated HRC. But, she's about 500 positions down on the "people I'd like to see as VP" list. Sebelius is my first choice, but lots of other good people around.

First thing Hillary would do as VP is have a fling with an intern. Then she'd be 'late'.

Poonstradamus says:

If Obama get the nomination he'll retire her campaign debt.

Also- Florida will sue the DNC alleging equal protection violations (allowing some states to move primaries without penalty) and Procedural Due Process violations predicated on a Section 5 "pre-clearance" reality.

As usual. You heard it here first.

Is this the same Bill Clinton you TFers fought to defend tooth and nail against the evil Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy? Impossibles, I say!

/the sheep moved from one shepherd to another.

According to this guy (new window), the Nightmare Ticket is dead.

MacEnvy: That's just as bogus as saying half of her voters won't vote for Obama either way. Really, it's ridiculous. If you won't vote for Barack just because Hillary is VP, then you really had no concept of what his campaign was about in the first place, and I'd be doubtful that you were EVER actually going to vote for him.

Think again. Hillary is the very personification of the status quo in Washington and is therefore absolutely antithetical to the very basis of Obama's Change message. If you think Hillary on his ticket won't lose him a significant number of votes, you haven't been paying attention.

What is wrong with her just being a Senator from New York? That isn't enough? Thats a pretty powerful and prestigious position.

Lawnchair: BravadoGT: The minute Obama announces Hillary as his veep, The Clintons will start to undermine him. Before the November election, they'll do so behind the scenes so he doesn't win--that way, they can shore up the 2012 nomination. If Obama does win, they will be doing everything they can to elevate the VP position to that of co-Pres (or, in this case, a triumvirate). She is going to want to be front-and-center, and would never allow herself to be perceived as being subordinate to Obama and his agenda.

Bing. Hold on the "she'd cap him" conspiracy theory. The "she'd kneecap him so she could run in 2012" theory is even more realistic.

I'd have (reluctantly) voted for a democratically-nominated HRC. But, she's about 500 positions down on the "people I'd like to see as VP" list. Sebelius is my first choice, but lots of other good people around.

The minute Obama announces her Veep, the minute his charade of being anything but a lying, hypocritical politician ends. That minute, every independent in the country leaves him. That, and the Clintons will probably kill him. The Left had no problem when he was killing hundreds of innocent citizens last decade, but all of a sudden will because they will be told to by the media.

I wanted to vote for Obama, but I had this Muslim friend (from Kuwait) in college named Othman. He was actually MuslimLite, where he didn't pray to Mecca everyday, but he did avoid pork. He once had a piece of pizza and it had pork on it and he didn't know it. He ended up getting a HUGE headache, that was Allah's punishment. Anyway, he once took me to this Mediterranean restaurant named Alcazar for a lunch buffet. He helped load up my plate with all this Muslim/Mediterranean food, including these black ball things. I ate a bit of one and those things were SO nasty, how could you eat something like that? So if Muslims eat that, they must be nasty and I don't know if Obama is really Muslim or not, he says he's not...but if he is and eats those black ball things he must be nasty and I cannot vote for him.

1. Hillary will NEVER accept the job. She will never play second fiddle to a black man.

2. This does not benefit Obama. Why should he take on her debt, her negatives and her ruthless, amoral drive to undermine everything he does? He'd be inviting a scorpion to sit next to him. There is nothing in this scenario that benefits him.

MacEnvy: quickdraw: No its not and this is why. I am voting for Obama because he understands that modern politics require modern methods. He has run his campaign completely differently than the Clinton's ran hers. She is so entrenched with Mark Penn and his ilk that she has destroyed her own ability to campaign effectively.

While their platforms aren't vastly different on the surface their methods of achieving their goals are. Their divergent styles would create so much conflict that nothing would get done.

But you still seem to be assuming that the VP actually does something. The only Constitutionally-mandated activities the Veep is responsible for are breaking ties in the Senate. Obama doesn't have to let her have any say in anything if he doesn't want to.

Their job is to also monitor the Space-Time Continuum. Read the Constitution!

Snipers.

Nemo's Brother: Is this the same Bill Clinton you TFers fought to defend tooth and nail against the evil Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy? Impossibles, I say!

No it's not. The Bill Clinton who parsed the meaning of "is" would never have made such a spectacular fool of himself. I'm not sure what happened to the guy - whether it was the heart surgery or just living with Hillary - but something has gone awry in his head.

All that aside I was ok with the Clinton's in office before Bush and friends removed every protection we had in place to prevent corruption in the oval office. We knew what Slick Willy was but with the justice dept in tact we figured he was as much of a calculate risk as any other politician at the time.

Things have changed a whole lot since the 90s. Instant fact checking is changing the world of politics. Its awesome.