And please, don't throw Pearl Harbor at me: it wasn't a state until Ike made it so, it was a territory. To claim that it was an attack on American soil is akin to the British claiming that an attack on the Falklands is on British soil.

What a farking a$$hole. Oh, it wasn't a state yet, but killing US sailors, soldiers and civilians in a surprise attack doesn't count? It wasn't about what soil it was on, farkface.

Soros is a serious turd nuggett. These are the powers behind Barack, the Messiah. Keep talking, Georgie.

GaryPDX: Soros is a serious turd nuggett. These are the powers behind Barack, the Messiah. Keep talking, Georgie.

You're an idiot. Seriously. Negotiating is never a bad thing. Reagan, conservative god did it. Hell, Nixon even did it. It's called diplomacy, douchebag.

cameroncrazy1984: GaryPDX: Soros is a serious turd nuggett. These are the powers behind Barack, the Messiah. Keep talking, Georgie.

You're an idiot. Seriously. Negotiating is never a bad thing. Reagan, conservative god did it. Hell, Nixon even did it. It's called diplomacy, douchebag.

Nothing wrong with diplomacy when it serves OUR interests.

GaryPDX: Soros

Soros ?

GaryPDX: These are the powers behind Barack

Soros and his ilk make up a fairly small piece of the Democratic party pie.

Everyone should [heart] Chamberlain - he bought time for the British re-armament program. He didn't sacrifice Czechoslovakia out of cowardice, he did it because he knew that Germany was already more prepared for the fight than the British & French.

nekom: GaryPDX: These are the powers behind Barack

Soros and his ilk make up a fairly small piece of the Democratic party pie.

Yes, but it's a well-funded ilk, and money speaks louder than anything in politics, unfortunately.

GaryPDX: Nothing wrong with diplomacy when it serves OUR interests.

And what have you seen from Obama and the democrats that seems to prove he wants to conduct diplomacy in something other than our interests? If you honestly think Obama is out to serve other people's interests, you're a moron.

kmmontandon: He didn't sacrifice Czechoslovakia out of cowardice, he did it because he knew that Germany was already more prepared for the fight than the British & French.

No No No!!! Don't you know, the Chickenhawk historians here all know that Hitler would not have attacked anyone if Chamberlain had not agreed to the Munich accords. All Hitler wanted to do was get the trains running on time. It was the perceived weakness of the English that FORCED Hitler to act.

FTA:

We all know the story by now: Monkey boy decided to visit Israel and break with a long standing unspoken rule against utilizing visits to foreign countries to score cheap political points at home.

Monkey boy? Oh fark, not this thread again.

cameroncrazy1984: GaryPDX: Nothing wrong with diplomacy when it serves OUR interests.

And what have you seen from Obama and the democrats that seems to prove he wants to conduct diplomacy in something other than our interests? If you honestly think Obama is out to serve other people's interests, you're a moron.

lol.. It just wouldn't be normal if you didn't jab at me whenever you get the chance, Cameron. Hey, your guy is on TV right now blowing his elite point of view and how he can change the world with Hope and nobody knows better than he does!!!

GaryPDX: Hey, your guy is on TV right now blowing his elite point of view and how he can change the world with Hope and nobody knows better than he does!!!

Well i suppose you could make shiat up if you don't have the actual substance to back it up.

Nabb1: What a farking a$$hole. Oh, it wasn't a state yet, but killing US sailors, soldiers and civilians in a surprise attack doesn't count? It wasn't about what soil it was on, farkface.

I thought that was pretty stupid, too.

My parents and grandparents watched as those bombers attacked the Oahu. It was pretty scary for them, and everyone else who watched it happen were US citizens.

kmmontandon: Everyone should [heart] Chamberlain - he bought time for the British re-armament program. He didn't sacrifice Czechoslovakia out of cowardice, he did it because he knew that Germany was already more prepared for the fight than the British & French.

Oh, there you go again, talking about the substance of the article and stuff.

cameroncrazy1984: GaryPDX: Hey, your guy is on TV right now blowing his elite point of view and how he can change the world with Hope and nobody knows better than he does!!!

Well i suppose you could make shiat up if you don't have the actual substance to back it up.

hahaha..nanny nanny patty cakes...lol. I just wish someone could articulate what this "change" is on the other side cause I don't like what it looks like.

GaryPDX: Nothing wrong with diplomacy when it serves OUR interests.


So are you stating that Democrats have no interest in serving American interests?

The answer to this question will allow me to categorize you as either a reasonable fellow whom I disagree with politically, or as a loony troll who isn't worth any serious attention.

You skate that line at your own peril.

Obama missed a golden opportunity to say "We're glad President Bush made that statement, because we do not and have never supported appeasement."

Instead, it looks almost as if he doth protest too much.

And for the conservatards:
Appeasement is not merely talking to your enemies. It's giving up something tangible (i.e. the Sudetenland) in response for the prospect of peace.

Talking to Iran the way Obama wants would be the exact opposite -- they would be appeasing us by giving up nuclear technology in exchange for not being bombed.

GaryPDX: I just wish someone could articulate what this "change" is on the other side cause I don't like what it looks like.

Dude, watch the speech. He wants to close loopholes in farm subsidies, roll back the tax cuts on the top 1%, start a 15-month drawdown on troops in Iraq. It's all there, you just have to actually read it.

Nestea Plunge: Or how about it only would have taken the German War Machine slightly longer to take Czechoslovakia had not Chamberlain given it to them without saying boo. Diplomacy is not appeasement.

It is when you allow one country to annex another and then come back home and exclaim that you have brought about "peace in our time" as a result. If he knew that Hitler had bigger dreams for war, he shouldn't have come back and told his citizens that he had essentially traded land for peace.

elchip: Appeasement is not merely talking to your enemies. It's giving up something tangible (i.e. the Sudetenland) in response for the prospect of peace.

So you do agree with the Chamberlain = appeaser argument, right?

Nestea Plunge: Daily Kos ♥'s Neville Chamberlain

Asinine headline.

Oh, lighten up, Francis. It's just poking fun.

/Not submitter.

Unright: GaryPDX: Nothing wrong with diplomacy when it serves OUR interests.


So are you stating that Democrats have no interest in serving American interests?



I believe Democrats are, by and large, "American" democrats with their country's interests at heart. That said, I believe there's a large contingent inside the party that are global socialists and aren't in it to preserve America. They want to have global socialism.

I agree with Nabb1, the Pearl Harbor comment was stupid, and while there are a few other points which I don't agree with, the article in question does bring up some good points.

It's very easy to judge Chamberlains actions with hindsight, and especially with greater harshness given what the Nazi's ended up doing. But you need to judge them in context.

oh and GaryPDX, your whole left-wing conspiracy shtick is getting way tired.

So this twatwaffle is saying Chamberlain wasn't a fool and that the whole appeasement thing was just a ploy to buy time????

Great way to rewrite history, asshole.

cameroncrazy1984: He wants to... roll back the tax cuts on the top 1%

Out of curiosity, what is his position on the remainder of the Bush tax cuts set to expire? Those cuts hit all brackets, not just the top 1%.

KaponoFor3: So you do agree with the Chamberlain = appeaser argument, right?

Yes, and ironically, so are the Israelis. They gave up Gaza for "peace" and got nothing.

kmmontandon: Everyone should [heart] Chamberlain - he bought time for the British re-armament program. He didn't sacrifice Czechoslovakia out of cowardice, he did it because he knew that Germany was already more prepared for the fight than the British & French.

More important than military readiness, there was not the political will of the country for war at that point. We Americans really don't have the sense of just how devastating to the British and French psyche WWI was. Throughout the 20's and 30's approximately a quarter of all French men from 20 to 40 were injured from the war. The French wanted to hide behind the Maginot Line and the British vowed never again to become involved in a continental war. Chamberlain's only mistake was to negotiate. He should have just let Hitler take the Sudetan by force and then said that there was nothing that the British could do. If he had done so, he would not be viewed by history as an appeaser but rather as a pragmatist.

Nabb1: Out of curiosity, what is his position on the remainder of the Bush tax cuts set to expire? Those cuts hit all brackets, not just the top 1%.

He wants to renew them, and actually give some more tax credits for certain things, like college tuition and the like.

Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: He wants to... roll back the tax cuts on the top 1%

Out of curiosity, what is his position on the remainder of the Bush tax cuts set to expire? Those cuts hit all brackets, not just the top 1%.

It's my understanding..all of those cuts will expire, Pelosi has said that numerous times.

real shaman: that the whole appeasement thing was just a ploy to buy time????

Well... kinda sorta. With appeasement they were kinda hoping that Hitler's eastward expansion would ruffle Stalin's feathers and make them go at each other's throats faster. Also, although Britain's military at the time was more powerful than Germany's, they thought it wasn't.

GaryPDX: Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: He wants to... roll back the tax cuts on the top 1%

Out of curiosity, what is his position on the remainder of the Bush tax cuts set to expire? Those cuts hit all brackets, not just the top 1%.

It's my understanding..all of those cuts will expire, Pelosi has said that numerous times.

Gary if there is one thing that I have learned over the years on Fark, it is that your understanding of things and reality are not necessarily kissing cousins.

KaponoFor3: It is when you allow one country to annex another and then come back home and exclaim that you have brought about "peace in our time" as a result. If he knew that Hitler had bigger dreams for war, he shouldn't have come back and told his citizens that he had essentially traded land for peace.

Excellent point. Had he not proclaimed there would be "peace in our time" and simply been more understated, he might not have ended up as history's goat. I guess that's Chamberlain's equivalent of a "Mission Accomplished" banner.

Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: He wants to... roll back the tax cuts on the top 1%

Out of curiosity, what is his position on the remainder of the Bush tax cuts set to expire? Those cuts hit all brackets, not just the top 1%.

Here, his website (new window) explains everything in more detail.

BritneysSpeculum: Gary if there is one thing that I have learned over the years on Fark, it is that your understanding of things and reality are not necessarily kissing cousins.

What you should have learned is 98% of the time, it's SnarkFark..:) Gotta keep you libs on your toes..lol.

GaryPDX: Soros is a serious turd nuggett. These are the powers behind Barack, the Messiah. Keep talking, Georgie.

You do understand that blaming George Soros for a diary on Daily Kos is like blaming Drew for a post on Fark.

cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: Out of curiosity, what is his position on the remainder of the Bush tax cuts set to expire? Those cuts hit all brackets, not just the top 1%.

He wants to renew them, and actually give some more tax credits for certain things, like college tuition and the like.

Renew all of them except the highest bracket, or renew some? Does he want the marriage penalty to come back into effect?

Oh, and college tuition credits are a bad idea. It lends itself to driving tuition increases.

kmmontandon: Everyone should [heart] Chamberlain - he bought time for the British re-armament program. He didn't sacrifice Czechoslovakia out of cowardice, he did it because he knew that Germany was already more prepared for the fight than the British & French.

Bullcrap. He didn't buy time at all, he squandered it. The Baldwin government, in which Chamberlain served as Chancellor of the Exchequer (essentially Baldwin's second-in-command), refused to re-arm Britain in response to Germany's rearmament for fear of being perceived as "warmongers". True, it had bought a bunch of factories for pennies on the pound, but those didn't start production until it was too late to do anything else but defend Britain itself.

I don't want to knock Chamberlain too hard. He was operating out of the best possible motives. But to claim that he was just making the best of a bad situation is ahistorical lunacy. He could have done much, much more. He didn't.

Nabb1: I guess that's Chamberlain's equivalent of a "Mission Accomplished" banner.

Nice.

cameroncrazy1984: Here, his website (new window) explains everything in more detail.

I appreciate the link, but that snippet is a little light on the details and the hard numbers.

BladBoy: You do understand that blaming George Soros for a diary on Daily Kos is like blaming Drew for a post on Fark.

Not even, Soros had nothing to do with founding DKos. The guy running it is named Markos Moulitsas Zuniga.

Nabb1: Renew all of them except the highest bracket, or renew some? Does he want the marriage penalty to come back into effect?

I always find this one funny. The marriage penalty only applies to those married taxpayers who have relatively comparable incomes. For families with disparate incomes, the old tax rates for marrieds filing jointly actually was a marriage benefit.

The republicans can't govern their way out of a paper bag, but they are particularly adroit at brand management.

GaryPDX
Hey, your guy is on TV right now blowing his elite point of view and how he can change the world with Hope and nobody knows better than he does!!!

Wait... you actually believe the frequent GOP claims of "OMG, he's elitist!"? Really? How sad.

And by the way, being elite is a very good thing. It means you're one of the best. Being elitist is frowned upon.

BladBoy: You do understand that blaming George Soros for a diary on Daily Kos is like blaming Drew for a post the stupid shiat GaryPDX spews on Fark.

FTFY

Nabb1: I appreciate the link, but that snippet is a little light on the details and the hard numbers.

You could always look up his speeches on the economy. Those usually have a lot more detail.

cameroncrazy1984: BladBoy: You do understand that blaming George Soros for a diary on Daily Kos is like blaming Drew for a post on Fark.

Not even, Soros had nothing to do with founding DKos. The guy running it is named Markos Moulitsas Zuniga.

He may not have founded it, but he does "fund" it..lol.

MasterThief: but those didn't start production until it was too late to do anything else but defend Britain itself.

considering France et al weren't keen on doing anything, one doubts England could have done much by itself anyway.

/yes, he could have done more

BritneysSpeculum: I always find this one funny. The marriage penalty only applies to those married taxpayers who have relatively comparable incomes. For families with disparate incomes, the old tax rates for marrieds filing jointly actually was a marriage benefit.

The republicans can't govern their way out of a paper bag, but they are particularly adroit at brand management.

I think it's an apt description given that both spouses working is not the norm in most households and that there is far less income disparity between men and women than before. Elimination of the penalty makes perfect sense these days.

GaryPDX: He may not have founded it, but he does "fund" it..lol.

LOL I suppose you have a source for that other than your own ass?

coma: BladBoy: You do understand that blaming George Soros for a diary on Daily Kos is like blaming Drew for a post the stupid shiat GaryPDX spews on Fark.

FTFY

I like how they resort to name calling..lol. This is what we want running our country?

elchip: Yes, and ironically, so are the Israelis. They gave up Gaza for "peace" and got nothing.

Let that be a lesson for everyone -- land for peace generally doesn't work, yet oddly enough, that seems to be the main request from Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Palestinian supporters: "Just give us X amount of land and we'll be peaceful! We swear! Then we won't have any reason to be mad"

UNLIKELY tag please.