Oohhh nature vs nurture. I love these kinds of debates!

I believe it is neither. I call it "norture".

Rush doesn't usually do author interviews...

...just like a teacher at a school for the deaf doesn't take their class to a symphony.

limpdick limberger needs a lot more programming.

Human beings are not by instinct, not by nature good. That has to be programmed into them, it has to be raised in them - and these people of course have a different definition. They think they are good, they're doing everything in the name of God, and yet their crimes are against humanity.


I wonder who programmed Rush Limbaugh for Oxycotin abuse and sex tours of third world countries?

Weaver95: Rush Limbaugh for Oxycotin abuse and sex tours of third world countries?

Wouldn't that be American public education telling him that he never has to feel pain and that sex is a shameful thing to be hidden?

i program my nephew to do really horrible things when my sister isn't looking.

Roman Fyseek: Weaver95: Rush Limbaugh for Oxycotin abuse and sex tours of third world countries?

Wouldn't that be American public education telling him that he never has to feel pain and that sex is a shameful thing to be hidden?

Got me dude. All I know is that Rush did his best work while high as a kite on Oxycotin and booking sex tour trips to the Dominican Republic. All while telling everyone in the country that he was a paragon of virtue.

I guess someone programmed Rush for 'deception' and slipped a few deadly sins into his source code.

Weaver95: All while telling everyone in the country that he was a paragon of virtue

That's what I tell everybody I meet.

/that's me! Paragon of virtue! Call me Mr. Paragon for short.

They're also, not by instinct, not by nature bad either.

We're naturally lazy. We take the easy route. It just so happens that, so often, the easy route leads to bad things, or at least not good things.

Wait, so if you've been "programmed" to be good, does that mean that good people who talk about non-good people are "elitist?"

LocalCynic: Wait, so if you've been "programmed" to be good, does that mean that good people who talk about non-good people are "elitist?"

Only if their source code is OS X.

Oooh, an anti-Rush Limbaugh thread full of wild accusations and morally superior tripe... let me get my popcorn, this will be highly entertaining.

I just got back from "Iron Man", so this is two shows involving things no reasonable person will actually believe in one night!

randomjsa: Oooh, an anti-Rush Limbaugh thread full of wild accusations and morally superior tripe... let me get my popcorn, this will be highly entertaining.

Actually, if you click the link, you can read about Rush Limbaugh claiming to be morally superior to "liberals." There's nothing like a conservative snob calling other people elitist.

Actually, isn't there evidence suggesting that altruism (even for people not related to them) *is* an 'instinct', and not learned?

sarty: Oohhh nature vs nurture. I love these kinds of debates!

Especially when they involve K-LO, Andy McCarthy and Rush Limbaugh!

Weaver95: All I know is that Rush did his best work while high as a kite on Oxycotin and booking sex tour trips to the Dominican Republic. All while telling everyone in the country that he was a paragon of virtue.

And the three divorces! Don't forget Mr. Morality's three divorces!

I think that people are good in nature, but "survival*" overrides that instinct.

_{*a subjective term}

Pfft.
Good and evil are artificial.
The only valuable "morals" can be summed up in the logic of the golden rule.

Example:
Murder and theft are illegal because noone wants it to happen to them.

This is woefully primitive.

Felgraf: Actually, isn't there evidence suggesting that altruism (even for people not related to them) *is* an 'instinct', and not learned?

Even for non-humans. Chimpanzees (who can't swim) have been seen trying to rescue fellow chimps who have fallen into the water. The result: they all drown.

The point: they risked their lives trying to save a friend/relative/tribe member/whatever. Altruism. Didn't need no Bible or Koran, neither.

m2313: The only valuable "morals" can be summed up in the logic of the golden rule.

Example:
Murder and theft are illegal because noone wants it to happen to them.

That's more like the Silver Rule, technically. A principle I myself strive to live by.

Lionel Mandrake: That's more like the Silver Rule, technically. A principle I myself strive to live by.

Oh-thanks for catching that.

Translation: "I am not by nature or by instinct "good" and it had to be programmed into me, therefore it must be true of everyone else as well."

"Human beings are not by instinct, not by nature good. That has to be programmed into them"


completely untrue.

goodness, love and kindness are natural instincts,
reflecting the true spirit of the universe inside of us,
but only after certain prior criteria have been satisfied.

just because it's higher on the list than breathing or eating
doesn't mean it isn't natural or instinctual.

Lionel Mandrake: Felgraf: Actually, isn't there evidence suggesting that altruism (even for people not related to them) *is* an 'instinct', and not learned?

Even for non-humans. Chimpanzees (who can't swim) have been seen trying to rescue fellow chimps who have fallen into the water. The result: they all drown.

The point: they risked their lives trying to save a friend/relative/tribe member/whatever. Altruism. Didn't need no Bible or Koran, neither.

they learned it from the monkey bible.

I read some of the article, but I kept thinking of this.....

So Rush is claiming that we're all born evil...

just as God made us...

in his own image???

Hmm...

"...the rest of the world hates us. They despise us because of our affluence, because our productivity, because we are a small portion of the world's population and we use a majority of the world's resources."

I've travelled abroad a lot and I've found that most people in other countries like Americans just fine, it's our current administration that they despise.

It's true. Without societal norms (language, compassion, etc), we would be just like animals. Meat-eating chimps, as it were.

Sta-Hi: So Rush is claiming that we're all born evil...

just as God made us...

in his own image???

Hmm...

original sin!

/i poked a badger with a spoon

burndtdan: they learned it from the monkey bible.

...scribed in feces on palm fronds.

Lionel Mandrake: The point: they risked their lives trying to save a friend/relative/tribe member/whatever. Altruism. Didn't need no Bible or Koran, neither.

It's not altruism because:
A. if he pulls it off, he is ingratiated and gets brownie points towards future interactions and
B. it's likely that the individual they're saving shares at least some genetic material, so rescuer is saving some of his genes which can then be passed on later.

Lionel Mandrake: ...scribed in feces on palm fronds.

No, that was algore's book.

Smellvin: Lionel Mandrake: The point: they risked their lives trying to save a friend/relative/tribe member/whatever. Altruism. Didn't need no Bible or Koran, neither.

It's not altruism because:
A. if he pulls it off, he is ingratiated and gets brownie points towards future interactions and
B. it's likely that the individual they're saving shares at least some genetic material, so rescuer is saving some of his genes which can then be passed on later.

the opportunity cost is potentially much, much higher than either of those benefits. besides, all you're showing is that we evolved altruism because it, for some reason, helped us survive. that's what evolution is, the development of things that help the species survive.

Smellvin: It's not altruism because:

Says you. The consensus among scientists is different (although not universal), but there are many articles in peer-reviewed journals and mainstream publications to read if you use the google - some bring up your points, most follow by dismissing them.

But one can always massage definitions to fit a certain view. It's altruism to me, quite clearly.

burndtdan: Smellvin: Lionel Mandrake: The point: they risked their lives trying to save a friend/relative/tribe member/whatever. Altruism. Didn't need no Bible or Koran, neither.

It's not altruism because:
A. if he pulls it off, he is ingratiated and gets brownie points towards future interactions and
B. it's likely that the individual they're saving shares at least some genetic material, so rescuer is saving some of his genes which can then be passed on later.

the opportunity cost is potentially much, much higher than either of those benefits. besides, all you're showing is that we evolved altruism because it, for some reason, helped us survive. that's what evolution is, the development of things that help the species survive.

By the by, the point of that previous post (just so nobody can pretend that it's not the point) is that when behavior is bred into us and is something which manifests without "programming", that's instinct

Weaver95: No, that was algore's book.

Now, now...I happen to know for a fact that that is just not true...

And, this being FARK, misrepresentations of fact are strictly prohibited!

nick_papagiorgio: I read some of the article, but I kept thinking of this.....

...In the same vein as "If man is evolved from monkeys, why are their still monkeys." The fallacious reasoning is "You can't answer that, so I'm right!"

I can't answer why the platypus exists. That does not mean there isn't a soul that can. That soul is infinitesimally likely to ever read Fark, however.

They think they are good, they're doing everything in the name of God, and yet their crimes are against humanity.

I'm convinced that Rush is some sort of evil genius of psychological projection.

I have to admire the stones you'd have to have to say that to his core audience but mean it to apply strictly to a nebulous overseas villainy.

I'll bite subby

How did the first good person become good?

IlGreven: nick_papagiorgio: I read some of the article, but I kept thinking of this.....

...In the same vein as "If man is evolved from monkeys, why are their still monkeys." The fallacious reasoning is "You can't answer that, so I'm right!"

I can't answer why the platypus exists. That does not mean there isn't a soul that can. That soul is infinitesimally likely to ever read Fark, however.

Only a joke. I like Fark because sometimes people notice when you're honest and point out the absurd.

Nature is a cold-hearted biatch.

NYZooMan: Nature is a cold-hearted biatch.

So's your mom.

/went there

sarty: Oohhh nature vs nurture. I love these kinds of debates!

/dnrtfa

seems like people want to be good in most instances - we just don't know what the appropriate action is to do or say.

Some people have a knack for just the right words, a little pick-me-up, some comforting quote, a simple gesture

/don't yet have the knack

coming from the NRO, who base their outlook on their own repressed whiny selfs and project it onto others, color me not surprised.

Religious people should be shot.

nick_papagiorgio: I read some of the article, but I kept thinking of this.....

You know, it's very common for people to say "Well, look at the platypus! That's not evidence of intelligent design, is it?!" But they never take into consideration the fact that the creature is perfectly adapted to its native environment, and probably came to be so through evolution.

The argument can be made, however, that the platypus was created by God for that environment because the biosphere required a creature that could fulfill a specific niche to work as He intended.

Besides, the only reason we're so confused about the evolution of the platypus is because we found the duck and the beaver first. Perhaps if it had been the other way around, we'd be questioning as to why a bird had a platypus beak.

"Human beings are not by instinct, not by nature good. That has to be programmed into them"

Elitist! Who are you ivory-tower types to tell people what's right and what's wrong!?

But seriously:

Shaggy_C: It's true. Without societal norms (language, compassion, etc), we would be just like animals. Meat-eating chimps, as it were.

Sort of. It's a lot more complicated than that. Certain types of social interaction - the physical manifestations of empathy, sympathy, cooperation, and even language itself - have become hard-wired in our brains over the millenia.

We basically couldn't go back to behaving like animals if we tried. We'd always wind up in a hierarchical social structure based upon mutual benefit and close personal relationships.

Nature makes us selfish and empathetic at the same time. It's a biatch. ;)