oy

I have heard tell that the reason that the ACOE was unable to keep the levys up to snuff was a lawsuit buy environmental groups trying to protect bird habitats.

Survive1999: I have heard tell that the reason that the ACOE was unable to keep the levys up to snuff was a lawsuit buy environmental groups trying to protect bird habitats.

And wasn't everyone in that city from the top down fully aware those levys could only handle at most a Category 3 (sustained) hurricane? When a Cat 5 is bearing down on you, and you're below sea level, common sense should kick in.

/just another handout for those that refuse to move on with their lives.

Havn't these people gotten enough already?

ihatedumbpeople: Survive1999: I have heard tell that the reason that the ACOE was unable to keep the levys up to snuff was a lawsuit buy environmental groups trying to protect bird habitats.

And wasn't everyone in that city from the top down fully aware those levys could only handle at most a Category 3 (sustained) hurricane? When a Cat 5 is bearing down on you, and you're below sea level, common sense should kick in.

/just another handout for those that refuse to move on with their lives.

The storm strength had diminished to a Category 3 over the city itself. The ACOE has already admitted that the levee failure was beneath their own specifications.

This decision will almost certainly be overturned on appeal.

First of all, I don't know how in the world you would prove that Hurricane Katrina was funneled into the city via this "Hurricane Highway." This would require courts to listen to experts or otherwise make guesses about how a hurricane is "funneled" into a city, and most judges are not scientists and probably don't want to make these determinations anyway.

On that note, why would you want to open the federal government to this sort of liability? Is the Army Corps of Engineers to be sued every time there's a hurricane that floods a city? Not only do most appellate court judges want to limit the federal government's liability in such situations generally, this decision carries scary implications with it in that regard.

I think common sense will prevail on appeal.

That will buy me a lifetime supply of Heineken's!

ihatedumbpeople: /just another handout for those that refuse to move on with their lives.

Thank you.

Don't get me wrong- our government should be held liable for the horrible way it neglected its own people. If it's true that someone didn't do their homework well enough to realize that their project would cause more harm in a devastating hurricane, they need to be accountable for their actions.

However, my city has been rewarded for pouring itself out to the victims of Katrina in aid and relief since the tragedy occurred by watching our crime rate double overnight. Most of the murder suspects on the news nowadays are identified as Katrina refugees and the violent homeless people who come screaming into my restaurant on a weekly basis are from New Orleans.. it's a part of their many screaming fits.

it would be nice if the awarded money solved some of the problem... but i doubt it. not to say that there aren't good people honestly trying to start over, but i think the main people i'm talking about were like this back before Katrina hit. They were just in New Orleans.

thatperlakyguy: This decision will almost certainly be overturned on appeal.

First of all, I don't know how in the world you would prove that Hurricane Katrina was funneled into the city via this "Hurricane Highway." This would require courts to listen to experts or otherwise make guesses about how a hurricane is "funneled" into a city, and most judges are not scientists and probably don't want to make these determinations anyway.

On that note, why would you want to open the federal government to this sort of liability? Is the Army Corps of Engineers to be sued every time there's a hurricane that floods a city? Not only do most appellate court judges want to limit the federal government's liability in such situations generally, this decision carries scary implications with it in that regard.

I think common sense will prevail on appeal.
I don't think you understand the legal issues here, or in general.

Courts don't avoid making decisions because they're hard (or at least, they're not supposed to). That's the entire purpose of having expert testimony: the fact-finder (jury or judge, depending on the case) makes a determination of the facts based on testimony (expert or otherwise). It'll be interesting to see the evidence in this case.

As for federal liability, the entire point here is that the ACOE is being sued based not on a hurricane flooding a city, but rather that the flood was due to ACOE's failure to do their work properly. This wouldn't even be an issue, for example, in Miami where there are no ACOE levees, etc.

Common sense is usually what people trot out when they don't understand the complexities of a case. Frankly, this is anything but a "common" instance of reasoning, so why should "common" sense prevail? The sense that should prevail is the educated, wise-thinking sense that comes with training and practice in law. It simply is not the case that "common sense" is the rubric of justice.

Levees are the things that fail. Levys are some people's last name.

Look, as a Katrina thriver, not survivor...I am getting a kick out of these replies.

Imagine paying for something that will save your life, way of life and property and find out not only did the ratbastards build the farker wrong...but after Katrina instead of using sponge rubber in the waterproof seals...they used newspaper...and defend their position using newspaper to seal the levees...

The Corps deserves criminal charges, this lawsuit is letting them off lightly. The farkin levees they built are exactly like a child's sandcastle along the MRGO.

And don't even get me started, I have news stories and Corps comments that can back my claim up.

Simple rainwater is washing out ruts in the MRGO levees.

The MRGO was a small navigational canal when built and now it is a huge waterway due to erosion and saltwater intrusion that killed the cypress forests.

Think of the MRGO as a hurricane superhighway, allowing water to pile up causing MASSIVE death and destruction. Then picture the Corps NOT taking the problem seriously and stuffing the water seals with newspaper.

I stand behind my comments 110%.

People need to go to jail on this, lawsuits are too easy for them.

The judge may be right, but New Orleans used (and misused) every scrap of goodwill they are going to get from the rest of the USA. I hope this goes to the SCOTUS and the Army corps of engineers win just for spite.
"You people are right but screw you anyway."

In the words of Bush, "who could have ever imagined that the levees would break?"

/Americans: we get the pieces of shiat that we deserve

alaric89: The judge may be right, but New Orleans used (and misused) every scrap of goodwill they are going to get from the rest of the USA. I hope this goes to the SCOTUS and the Army corps of engineers win just for spite.
"You people are right but screw you anyway."

Really? How so? Because some people who were dirt bags living off of other people's good will before the storm continued to do it afterward? I'd be interested to hear your specifics on this misuse of good will.

The corp of engineers should just dismantle all the existing levies then. If you don't like what we've done, screw you and die.

The corp of engineers should just dismantle all the existing levies then. If you don't like what we've done, screw you and die.

Equivalent of:

Take their football and go home because they got caught?

Fail.

Good trolling though.

If one chooses to live somewhere that is below sea level, and sinking for that matter, how in the world is it the Corp of Engineers fault when your house fills up with water? Further, how can someone be shocked and outraged when it happens?

No chance this won't be reversed. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals is riddled with BushButtBoys&Girls

jason_subsea: If one chooses to live somewhere that is below sea level, and sinking for that matter, how in the world is it the Corp of Engineers fault when your house fills up with water? Further, how can someone be shocked and outraged when it happens?

When the Army Corps tells you that they have built levees that will prevent that, and then the levees fail to live up to even their own assurances, then what? Your government spends billions of dollars on something that fails to live up to its own standards and you aren't bothered by this?

And another thing, the Emir of Qatar was here visiting hospitals and universities to see how the $100 million donated by his country was being spent, and he was very pleased. If the Emir of Qatar has more compassion for your fellow citizens than you do, well, that's pretty pathetic.

The ACOE is liable. They should never have gotten into the business of making areas not suitable for residential building into areas that are. They lured the people of NO into a false sense of security. If they had stayed out of it in the first place, then everything would be much better.

mattharvest:
As for federal liability, the entire point here is that the ACOE is being sued based not on a hurricane flooding a city, but rather that the flood was due to ACOE's failure to do their work properly.

Actually I'm pretty sure the flood was due to the giant freaking hurricane dropping an entire lake in a matter of hours on an area that was below sea level. Quite frankly I think it is stupid to blame ACOE when everyone knew the city was below sea level. If you live below sea level eventually your home WILL be flooded. If you live on or next to a volcano eventually your home will be destroyed by an eruption. If you live in a trailer in the midwest you can kiss Toto and auntie Emme goodbye. If you live on a large fault line there are going to be earthquake and stuff (icluding possibly your entire home) will be destroyed.

It really doesn't matter how good your engineers are when you are living in an area that common sense and history shows WILL turn into a disaster area at some point. If you choose to live in one of these areas and your home is destroyed then tough. I understand that some people grow up in an area and may be poor and have trouble leaving that area but we are talking about a huge number of people that didn't even try.

Bad things happen. Many of them happen unexpectedly. THis was not one of them. This event was inevitable. If it hadn't happened this time it would have happened eventually. Hurricanes are natural events that (so far) mankind has no way to prevent and a city below sea level right near to the ocean will be destroyed by one. It isn't a question of if, it is a question of when. And if everything gets rebuilt (some has been already) there is a very good chance that next time it will be even worse. The whole area is sinking. The whole area is built on sand and loose soil. It is going to go further below sea level and a hurricane of the same size will do even more damage and cause even worse flooding next time. Let alone what will ever happen if a bigger hurricane hits or an off shore earthquake causes a tsunami.

Engineers may be able to plan for and help alleviate some damage from some disasters but the Earth is dynamic. You can't plan for and prevent everything. New Orleans could have walls the size of the Hoover dam and it won't help when a hurricane sits on top of the area dumping water measured in in feet per hour rather than inches. Just how many billions is the US government supposed to sped to build and maintain bigger and bigger walls, dams, and levees as time goes on just to see it all happen again anyways?

Hacker_X: Actually I'm pretty sure the flood was due to the giant freaking hurricane dropping an entire lake in a matter of hours on an area that was below sea level

The levees broke and the vast majority of flooding took place well after the storm had passed.

Correct decision.

This was a channel which existed to facilitate and reduce the expense of shipping, and was directly responsible for destroying the wetland barrier south of the city which protected it from storm surge.

In other words, New Orleans paid with the lives and property of its citizens so that this nation could enjoy decades of cheap oil. Its only fair that the nation pay to repair the damage to those wetlands.

alaric89: The judge may be right, but New Orleans used (and misused) every scrap of goodwill they are going to get from the rest of the USA. I hope this goes to the SCOTUS and the Army corps of engineers win just for spite.
"You people are right but screw you anyway."

Well, not that personal anecdotes are the best way to refute an argument, but I can personally attest that I haven't misused a single scrap of federal money I've received, let alone 'every scrap'.

I have received a good chunk of federal aid largely in the form of an sba loan. I could have used it to simply fix up my old house and spent the other half on plasma teevees, hookers and crack had I wanted to.

But my house is in a flood zone. So I am using every dime of the money - on top of a *whole lot* of money out of pocket - to build a fortress. It's going to be well above the base flood elevation, and will withstand pretty much anything except a 500 year hurricane.

Take that for what you will.

Nabb1:
Was the Emir of Qatar Donating from his personal fortune?
And I would just love to get more stories of New orlean citizens rolling up their sleeves and getting on with their lives, without blaiming everybody else for their problems. New Yorkers did a lot to be proud of collectively after 9-11. Maybe if these hero stories came out of New Orleans more in the press I would be less cynical.

jeffowl: The ACOE is liable. They should never have gotten into the business of making areas not suitable for residential building into areas that are. They lured the people of NO into a false sense of security. If they had stayed out of it in the first place, then everything would be much better.

A well thought out and cogent argument...aside from the fact that New Orleans was established in 1718 and the Army Corp of Engineers did not come into being until 1802. Furthermore, the ACOE did not become the lead on flood control until the 20th century.

It's safe to say there was residential building long before the ACOE ever started building levees. The basic fact still remains that people built there homes on a chunk of sinking land, in the middle of a swamp, in an area prone to all sorts of devastating weather phenomena and are now complaining that somehow water ended up in there living rooms.

Nabb1 2008-05-03 11:20:39 AM
Your government spends billions of dollars on something that fails to live up to its own standards and you aren't bothered by this're surprised?

FTFY.

alaric89: And I would just love to get more stories of New orlean citizens rolling up their sleeves and getting on with their lives, without blaiming everybody else for their problems. New Yorkers did a lot to be proud of collectively after 9-11. Maybe if these hero stories came out of New Orleans more in the press I would be less cynical.

Yes, lots of us are rolling up our sleeves and "getting on with our lives." Just because we don't get press like New York did, don't assume we haven't been busting our rears putting this community back together from the ground up.

Ok, the pre-Katrina levee's were faqrmed out to someones Brother in Law to be built. Then they broke. So the ACOE is placed in the position of building levee's. NOLA is a city that is sustained by 2 things, Oil Companies and Tourism. In fact it is capable of doing a lot it's self. Corruption down there is rampant in a way that makes Washington seem clean. I go to NOLA to visit at least once a year. I would have to say that there needs to be something done but some of these people also need to be told to stick it. I am sure if you were to put one of those "evil" oil companies that have headquarters or major offices there it would be done right. But then there would be no government oversight and we can't have that.

Nabb1: Hacker_X: Actually I'm pretty sure the flood was due to the giant freaking hurricane dropping an entire lake in a matter of hours on an area that was below sea level

The levees broke and the vast majority of flooding took place well after the storm had passed.

My point is that geologically the whole area is broken and no amount of engineering can fix that. It is getting worse with no end in sight. The levees broke because of the huge amount of water from the hurricane and it is just a matter of time until an even bigger one hits and the whole are will have sunk further by then. The levees were built around 40 years ago and the city has sunk further since then. Meaning even if they were built perfectly to begin with the land for the whole area is slowly shifting and it will slowly destabilize any kind of large scale levee or dam.

People are suing the government because they didn't protect their homes from flooding when they live BELOW sea level. At some point some rational logical person is going to have to site this people down and tell them tough luck that is what happens in nature. The government should not have to protect people from their own stupidity. It is because of these same kinds of people that we have warnings on hair dryers that say not to use them in the shower.

gilgigamesh:
Good for you. I don't consider a loan a Handout though.(like a lawsuit is a handout to lawyers)
I base my opinions on what I see in the news, not nessesarially reality.
Are you building outside the flood plain or building up your current lot somehow? (just curious)

Nabb1: Yes, lots of us are rolling up our sleeves and "getting on with our lives." Just because we don't get press like New York did, don't assume we haven't been busting our rears putting this community back together from the ground up.

Speaking of which, I noticed in another thread you mentioned your wife is preggers, but you had long since departed. Just wanted to say congrats!

Lesse.... I'm going to sue the Army Corps of Engineers, a government entity. I wonder where they'll get the money to pay off the lawsuit?

Stop reaching into my wallet. There's nothing left but moths and a dried-up Trojan.

Scottish philosopher Alexander Fraser Tytler, writing nearly two hundred years ago about the fall and decline of the Athenian Republic, proclaimed, "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury." -Picked out of the Ethernet from here (pops)

Be very, very careful what you ask for.

Hacker_X: Nabb1: Hacker_X: Actually I'm pretty sure the flood was due to the giant freaking hurricane dropping an entire lake in a matter of hours on an area that was below sea level

The levees broke and the vast majority of flooding took place well after the storm had passed.

My point is that geologically the whole area is broken and no amount of engineering can fix that. It is getting worse with no end in sight. The levees broke because of the huge amount of water from the hurricane and it is just a matter of time until an even bigger one hits and the whole are will have sunk further by then. The levees were built around 40 years ago and the city has sunk further since then. Meaning even if they were built perfectly to begin with the land for the whole area is slowly shifting and it will slowly destabilize any kind of large scale levee or dam.

People are suing the government because they didn't protect their homes from flooding when they live BELOW sea level. At some point some rational logical person is going to have to site this people down and tell them tough luck that is what happens in nature. The government should not have to protect people from their own stupidity. It is because of these same kinds of people that we have warnings on hair dryers that say not to use them in the shower.

And, as noted, the levee system was built to handle a far worse hurricane and worse flooding than what actually hit New Orleans. Everyone forgets that Katrina took a turn at the last minute and actually only sort of grazed New Orleans. There is no reason what happened should have happened if the ACOE was doing their farking job.

But I guess the "fark everyone but me" school of politics makes people feel better.

alaric89: Good for you. I don't consider a loan a Handout though.(like a lawsuit is a handout to lawyers

Its a 'handout' in the sense that its a subsidized loan with an interest rate of 2.5%, which is actually below the rate of inflation. The monthly payments are very low as it is, and 10 years from now they will be the equivalent of a McDs supervalue meal per month.

I don't ever plan to pay it off (unless I sell) because it is pretty much a grant.

I base my opinions on what I see in the news, not nessesarially reality.

Take what you see on the news with a grain of salt. Visit the city.

People still come to NO surprised to find out that there aren't still parts of the city underwater.

Are you building outside the flood plain or building up your current lot somehow? (just curious)

I am building on the same lot which is in the bottom of the bowl; more or less. I absolutely love my neighborhood and consider it to be one of the best kept secrets in the city - peaceful and quiet with great neighbors and very low crime. Its especially nice since uptown is turning into a war zone.

Almost everyone on my block is either raising their structure or building a new structure by adding fill or building on piers.

I am building a new house on piers 9 feet up with a garage underneath. It should be done in a few weeks - nearly 2 1/2 years after the storm. But it will be well worth it.

"This should end well..." Yeah, in about 46 years and three hurricanes later.

gilgigamesh: nearly 2 1/2 years

shiat, time is passing me by. It'll actually be close to three years.

fark me.

Well, best of luck to 'em, but they shouldn't hold their breath. People with lakefront property here have been trying to sue for about the last 40 years over shoreline erosion supposedly caused by the ACOE mucking around with the water levels of the Great Lakes. It has something to do with controlling the locks in NY State...I'm not smart enough to figure it out. Lake Erie looks lower & cleaner, that's all I can say.

Whatever, it ain't worked out so good for the plaintifs.

wambear1: jeffowl: The ACOE is liable. They should never have gotten into the business of making areas not suitable for residential building into areas that are. They lured the people of NO into a false sense of security. If they had stayed out of it in the first place, then everything would be much better.

A well thought out and cogent argument...aside from the fact that New Orleans was established in 1718 and the Army Corp of Engineers did not come into being until 1802. Furthermore, the ACOE did not become the lead on flood control until the 20th century.

It's safe to say there was residential building long before the ACOE ever started building levees. The basic fact still remains that people built there homes on a chunk of sinking land, in the middle of a swamp, in an area prone to all sorts of devastating weather phenomena and are now complaining that somehow water ended up in there living rooms.

You make some good points. However, I do not believe that you would have seen the level of development in the lower lying areas of NO had there not been a government entity involved in the building of the levees. There are many areas of NO that are NOT below the natural water line. Those areas did not suffer nearly as bad as the areas that were below.

To be clear, I intended a level of snark in my OP that I may have failed to convey. I do not believe that the ACOE should be financially liable for this. I have always lived near flood plains, but never in them. I do not understand the people that purposely move into areas that are flood prone, counting on the govt. to protect them. That has always been a flawed strategy.

cleveoh: Well, best of luck to 'em, but they shouldn't hold their breath. People with lakefront property here have been trying to sue for about the last 40 years over shoreline erosion supposedly caused by the ACOE mucking around with the water levels of the Great Lakes. It has something to do with controlling the locks in NY State...I'm not smart enough to figure it out. Lake Erie looks lower & cleaner, that's all I can say.

I see it as something that will have a generational effect. Hopefully a settlement would be reached to create a fund for the purpose of restoring the wetlands damaged and destroyed by saltwater intrusion.

jake_lex said earlier that "But I guess the "fark everyone but me" school of politics makes people feel better"

People, this isn't an example of "fark everyone but me", this is an example of Natural Selection at its finest. Those with the ability to survive (i.e. those who do not live in a farking bucket) will survive.

The citizens of New Orleans have seen the differance between opinion (ACOE saying the levees will hold) and fact (Water always seeks the lowest point). And yet after a demonstration the magnitude of Katrina, the rest of the country is supposed to feel compassion and bankroll people moving back to that area?

Analogy: Would you feel compassion for someone who, knowing the risk, decided to move to Chernobyl? Moreover, would you finance them in this attempt? I think not.

Let the flaming begin! Line forms below this post.

New Orleans already sinking several more feet from the weight of 1000's of lawyers rushing there to sign up clients.

If anything they should sue George Bush.

great_tigers: Havn't these people gotten enough already?

Maybe you should visit New Orleans. It still looks like shiat.

TeddyRooseveltsPornMustache: If anything they should sue George Bush.

/bds

"I am using every dime of the money to build a fortress. It's going to be well above the base flood elevation, and will withstand pretty much anything except a 500 year hurricane."

I can't help but note that the area you're building in has about 490 years of recorded history to date :)

TeddyRooseveltsPornMustache: If anything they should sue George Bush.

Especially for his godawful guitar playing at the Superdome:



/this crap happened because all parts of the government. failed. City, State and Federal.
//all should be liable.

New Orleans can kiss my a--. Wah wah wah.

/never mind it's not even worth the effort any more.
//N.O. suck it.

Walker: That will buy me a lifetime supply of Heineken's!

What is this "buy" shiat?

Enough of perpetuating the impossible dream. The rest of the US should REFUSE to pay another penny to prolong the inevitable failure of living below sea level. Let the dikes and sumps rot. Buy each NOLA citizen a one way bus ticket to anywhere in the continental US that they want to go. Let them move and start over. There's plenty of Walmarts around for the career-minded go-getter's!