And if you were one of the hostages, subby, I'm sure you would have refused release upon hearing that your ransom had been paid to demonstrate to the world your righteous indignation over a government paying to secure your freedom. You would have walked right back into the hovel where you were being held and sat back down and thrust your wrists into the rope and demanded they hold the guns closer, damnit, because you weren't going anywhere until soldiers stormed the village.

The Somalian pirates must have learned this lesson when the Spanish essentially capitulated to terrorists after the Madrid bombings.

Well, maybe it pays a little:



/approves

Rainbow Six was tied up elsewhere.

/Seriously though, giving in to this sort of thing is a slippery slope.
//Internet weak guy

Pirate problem? Just release the ninjas, since ninjas >>>>>>>> pirates.

/When the ninjas start running amok, you might be kinda screwed though....

Pocket Ninja: And if you were one of the hostages, subby, I'm sure you would have refused release upon hearing that your ransom had been paid to demonstrate to the world your righteous indignation over a government paying to secure your freedom. You would have walked right back into the hovel where you were being held and sat back down and thrust your wrists into the rope and demanded they hold the guns closer, damnit, because you weren't going anywhere until soldiers stormed the village.

Tug at the heartstrings a little more, eh? What good can posibly come from negotiating with terrorists? It sets a bad precident

Pocket Ninja: And if you were one of the hostages, subby, I'm sure you would have refused release upon hearing that your ransom had been paid to demonstrate to the world your righteous indignation over a government paying to secure your freedom. You would have walked right back into the hovel where you were being held and sat back down and thrust your wrists into the rope and demanded they hold the guns closer, damnit, because you weren't going anywhere until soldiers stormed the village.

You're right, all international relations should be based upon the way it will affect a handful of people. Grow up, the world is not all puppies and rainbows. Sometimes people get hurt. Doesn't mean you bend over everytime someone throws you a mean glance.

Also, note to self: if you're looking for some tasty hostages, grab Spaniards. Their lives are apparently worth about $46k each.

Uh, this is fairly common practice for pirates. A lot of freighters, yachts and cruise ships in that area and Indonesia get pirated and everyone aboard held for ransom. Most of the time companies quietly pay, the crew is returned and the pirates go away to find someone else to pirate.


/pirate

Tacoby Bellisbury: Tug at the heartstrings a little more, eh? What good can posibly come from negotiating with terrorists? It sets a bad precident

Oh, so the word "terrorist" encompasses pirates now? Are bank robbers terrorists? What about drug dealers? Jaywalkers lay claim to areas of the street that do not belong to them, terrorizing innocent drivers who suddenly have to negotiate their way around them, so maybe they should be included, too.

The word "terrorist" has become so co-opted by dishonest, agenda-pushing morons that it has no meaning anymore. It's like "liberal" or "conservative" or "elite." The terms mean what the person saying them want to mean, and the person saying them is almost always a self-interested, intellectually shallow, manipulative little turd.

In the golden years of Piracy we simply hunted them down and hung them after a speedy trial. That is if they survived the actual capture.

seminole87: and they're off ... out of the starting gate we have a "capitulated" but "appeasement" is only half a length behind ..

What's your point moron?

Or do you not believe that the Spanish altered their foreign and domestic policy because of homegrown terrorist acts?

Spain was just doing its part to fight Global Warming.

/WWFSMD

Pirates=terrorist? I don't know, but they are in the same neighborhood at least. Equating them with jay walkers is silly. It depends on the type of bank robbers. Are they robbing to pay for their childs expensive medical procedure? Or are they robbing the bank to retire to some island? Be more specific

Well that's too bad. See one thing we know is if you don't give in to the terrorists, they just give up and stop attacking you. Just ask the Israelis.

Wait... was this a Basque fishing boat? I wonder if there is anything left in Mogadishu worth bombing these days.

seminole87: okay let's say that you are robbing banks cause you want money to spend on booze and whores ... terrorist or not?

Oh you're right! The world and all its issues are divided up into black and white with an infinite amount of shade of grays in the middle.

Thanks for answering my previous question too. It's especially hilarious considering your diatribe against "internet tough guys" in the second post in this thread.

To the shores of Tripoli.

Raskolnikov's Angst: The Somalian pirates must have learned this lesson when the Spanish essentially capitulated to terrorists after the Madrid bombings.

I just dropped in to say this.

/lurking in background

YARRRR

"Millions for defense"

cue Dr. Evil's advisors

Because your life is more important than the next person's!

Pocket Ninja: Tacoby Bellisbury: Tug at the heartstrings a little more, eh? What good can posibly come from negotiating with terrorists? It sets a bad precident

Oh, so the word "terrorist" encompasses pirates now? Are bank robbers terrorists? What about drug dealers? Jaywalkers lay claim to areas of the street that do not belong to them, terrorizing innocent drivers who suddenly have to negotiate their way around them, so maybe they should be included, too.

The word "terrorist" has become so co-opted by dishonest, agenda-pushing morons that it has no meaning anymore. It's like "liberal" or "conservative" or "elite." The terms mean what the person saying them want to mean, and the person saying them is almost always a self-interested, intellectually shallow, manipulative little turd.

Seriously, piracy has been a significant maritime issue for thousands of years. The strategy has changed little, just the tech.

/normally a corporation, not a gov't pays

WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS! We only negotiate with freedom fighters.

/you know ..... OUR terrorists!
//farking hypocrites

The fact that Spain was willing to pay ransom for hostages shouldn't surprise anyone after they did exactly what terrorists wanted after being bombed.

randomjsa: The fact that Spain was willing to pay ransom for hostages shouldn't surprise anyone after they did exactly what terrorists wanted after being bombed.

I dont know if you know this, but the practice of "Spain" paying ransom to various "Pirates" (Mostly Barbary) to release captives has been going on for, roughly, 500 years or so.

My god, a country that cares for it's own citizens!

End Act II. I suspect there will be a denouement that brings down the house. Or a house. Or lair, if you will.

Pocket Ninja: And if you were one of the hostages, subby, I'm sure you would have refused release upon hearing that your ransom had been paid to demonstrate to the world your righteous indignation over a government paying to secure your freedom. You would have walked right back into the hovel where you were being held and sat back down and thrust your wrists into the rope and demanded they hold the guns closer, damnit, because you weren't going anywhere until soldiers stormed the village.

Personal self interest does not always make for the best public policy.

That's why Mario Cuomo's answer (I believe it was on 60 Minutes) to the hypothetical posed at one of the Presidential debates -- (paraphrased) "If Kitty Dukakis were raped and killed, would you still be against the death penalty for the person who did it?" -- was far better than Michael Dukakis'. He said that of course he'd want any person who harmed his wife to die, and he'd push the button himself, but personal emotion isn't always the best way to make laws.

/Didn't care much for either Mario or Mike, and I'm not opposed to the death penalty for the worst crimes, but Cuomo's answer was pretty darned good.
//Couldn't find the exact quote on Google, and I'm too lazy to track it down.

Party Boy: randomjsa: The fact that Spain was willing to pay ransom for hostages shouldn't surprise anyone after they did exactly what terrorists wanted after being bombed.

I dont know if you know this, but the practice of "Spain" paying ransom to various "Pirates" (Mostly Barbary) to release captives has been going on for, roughly, 500 years or so.

Things have changed in case you haven't noticed it.

Party Boy: I dont know if you know this, but the practice of "Spain" paying ransom to various "Pirates" (Mostly Barbary) to release captives has been going on for, roughly, 500 years or so.

Maybe it's lasted 500 years because they keep doing it.

Need to send them some of those plastic truck balls

seminole87: the way ransom works is you pay up or they kill the person being ransomed.

nothing new and different here, the same thing was going on in 1450 ...

you know who else is stuck in the 1400's..

randomjsa: Things have changed in case you haven't noticed it.

Well, see the problem of

randomjsa: The fact that Spain was willing to pay ransom for hostages shouldn't surprise anyone after they did exactly what terrorists wanted after being bombed.

is that you set the terms of this conflict without historical perspective.

Frankly, Christian Spaniards were in conflict with various Muslims since 1500's 700's. Coastal cities were raided for captives. Religious orders like the Mercedarians and the Trinitarians went over and paid money for their ransom. Military captives were sold and exchanged. Miguel de Cervantes (You know, the guy who brought us Don Quixote) himself was a captive for 5 years before his ransom.

Before you boil things down to "the terrorists" and 'they did exactly what they wanted after being bombed.," you might want to acknowledge the centuries-long practice of ransoming captives from pirates instead of simply connecting this to the 11-M train bombings.

Here's some historical background from the Mercedarians

If I were a hostage, I would want the country to pay. Likewise, right now, I want the country to give me one billion dollars. Unfortunately for me, both set a dangerous precedent and so they, objectively, shouldn't happen.

LittleSmitty: In the golden years of Piracy we simply hunted them down and hung them after a speedy trial.

They're probably expecting the US to wipe out the pirates.

seminole87: okay let's say that you are robbing banks cause you want money to spend on booze and whores ... terrorist or not?

their goal may not be to cause terror, they may only want money, but they do cause terror

Spanky_McFarksalot: Maybe it's lasted 500 years because they keep doing it.

Im actually very interested in this topic.

Frankly, you find out that "Spain" is not a unified nation-state (no big surprise, really) and why, if theres a continuing "little war" going on after the reconquista, does the bulk of the power of this 15-17th century superpower go to the new world rather than to North Africa? Well, The crown isnt as powerful as you may think, and individual financiers are making of with tons of the fortune and are, themselves, funding the expeditions to the new world.

Its no big surprise that the crown wasnt as powerful as todays nation-state governments.

A "terrorist" would kidnap spaniards to scare spain into allowing an independent basque nation-state, for example. fear/notoriety/political power is the goal

A pirate would kidnap spaniards to get money, then hope spain forgets about it and doesn't send their army of flamenco dancers to castenet them to death (at least it'd be quick)

if we're broadening the term 'terrorism' to mean "anything that people don't like" then at a certain point, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

down4afall: Well, maybe it pays a little:

if only the hostages had been carrying this gun. it shoots through schools.

My brother used to work for an NGO that had an express policy of not paying ransom. A lot of their people worked in dangerous parts of the world, and the best way to protect them from kidnappings is to have that policy. He knew going in, as did we, that if anything happened to him, he wasn't getting ransomed.

/Knew some people in college who had a relative who was kidnapped overseas and never found

rynthetyn: /Knew some people in college who had a relative who was kidnapped overseas and never found


So you're getting a kick out of these replies?

seminole87: so does stephen king

hehehe, but his goal is both

Pocket Ninja: Taco

nice red strawman. TROLL

Pocket Ninja:
Oh, so the word "terrorist" encompasses pirates now? Are bank robbers terrorists? What about drug dealers? Jaywalkers lay claim to areas of the street that do not belong to them, terrorizing innocent drivers who suddenly have to negotiate their way around them, so maybe they should be included, too.

The word "terrorist" has become so co-opted by dishonest, agenda-pushing morons that it has no meaning anymore. It's like "liberal" or "conservative" or "elite." The terms mean what the person saying them want to mean, and the person saying them is almost always a self-interested, intellectually shallow, manipulative little turd.

Well, to be fair the word "pirate" has also become co-opted by dishonest, agenda-pushing assholes so that it has lost much of its original well defined meaning. The attempts by certain interest groups to equate copyright infringment and other acts they disapprove of with brutal and bloody type of crimes have let to a watering down of the original term.

I guess that means that it all evens out in the end.

They may have capitulated after Madrid, but the decision was still correct. No one should've gone to Iraq in the first place.

So paying to get citizens back = Bad if you're Spain
Paying Iraqi insurgents in order to not attack = Quite fine if you're USA?

Because Spain's repudation of the PP was solely because of capitulation to terrorists, and not at all because they tried to blame the attacks on ETA.

/If the Republicans tried to blame 9/11 on the Earth Liberation Front, would YOU vote to re-elect them?

We would never negotiate with terrorists!

/unless they were in Iran, playing that delightful video game, Contra

I want them to pay money every time. And the next time they do it, pay em again.

And if you think the money is going to pay for terrorist attacks, just make sure you don't give yourself a paper cut ripping that check outta your checkbook.