Hopefully, it's the kind of game that only needs this to do battle.

Why did we freaking choose to take out Saddam when this guy appears to be worse in almost every way? Does GWB really just hate the Iraqis that much?

MacEnvy: Why did we freaking choose to take out Saddam when this guy appears to be worse in almost every way? Does GWB really just hate the Iraqis that much?

No..because..:

It is a funny story because he does not know that the Chinese appreciate pigs because they are good to eat.

I did not think this clusterfark could get any worse. I hadn't even imagined this.

This seems like something out of a bad Tom Clancy novel. Sure, ten soldiers isn't a whole heck of a lot in a country with 13 million people (although all the sources I looked at seemed to include a proviso with that figure about AIDS rates) but it's a start. And if the Chinese are beginning to provide military resources and "advisers" to African countries, that could be viewed as a start to get a bunch of vassal states on a second continent. One with very little internal controls, governmental chaos, and a metric ass-ton of resources.

With Iran, and now Zimbabwe being shunned by the west, it seems like China is the new place to turn for countries that run up against the First World. A policy that runs the real danger of creating a second true superpower, one that makes up for a lack of truly high-tech innovation with huge numbers of area, population, and resources.

It seems like a possibility that the next global conflict will be a battle between quantity and quality.

/My two cents. Maybe I should write a novel. Or a rambling manifesto.

schoberp: makes up for a lack of truly high-tech innovation with huge numbers of area, population, and resources.

Don't forget espionage, we handle the grunt work to develop the systems they reverse engineer or buy the plans and save themselves the trouble.

What does the Chinese get out of this?

dervish16108: What does the Chinese get out of this?

What does they indeed...

Extreme parity?

Have TFers defended Communism/Socialism in this thread yet?

Nemo's Brother, I'm just waiting for the chap who said that China wasn't expansionist to turn up... that is, the one who thought it would all be unicorns and rainbows with free trade...

Given their insistance on respect for their soverignty, I find it ammusing how much they respect the soverignty of other nations.

Nemo's Brother: Have TFers defended Communism/Socialism in this thread yet?

No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat. -- Deng Xiaoping

Mr Logo: Given their insistance on respect for their soverignty, I find it ammusing how much they respect the soverignty of other nations.

Whats up America

zusya: dervish16108: What does the Chinese get out of this?

What does they indeed...

Hahaha, I didn't have my coffee yet. That was great.

schoberp: ...true superpower, one that makes up for a lack of truly high-tech innovation with huge numbers of area, population, and resources.

It seems like a possibility that the next global conflict will be a battle between quantity and quality.

You just described the whole theory behind a Zerg rush.

Hoarf: schoberp: ...true superpower, one that makes up for a lack of truly high-tech innovation with huge numbers of area, population, and resources.

It seems like a possibility that the next global conflict will be a battle between quantity and quality.

You just described the whole theory behind a Zerg rush.

Or the second half of the Korean War.

Mugabe will never leave on his own.

Will someone remind me again why I should care if China decides to flush away manpower and money down a Zimbabwean rat-hole?

67 Beetle: Will someone remind me again why I should care if China decides to flush away manpower and money down a Zimbabwean rat-hole?

Why should I care if some Austrian Arch-duke gets shot by anarchists in Sarajevo?

67 Beetle:
Will someone remind me again why I should care if China decides to flush away manpower and money down a Zimbabwean rat-hole?

Hmm, the oppressed misery of the Zimbabwean people should be worth a little, I think.

Tenebrux "Why should I care if some Austrian Arch-duke gets shot by anarchists in Sarajevo?"

You shouldn't. We didn't.

No Such Agency: "Hmm, the oppressed misery of the Zimbabwean people should be worth a little, I think."

So how many men and/or how much money do you think we should expend to ensure that one tin-pot dictator is replaced by another?

/snip/

Why did we freaking choose to take out Saddam when this guy appears to be worse in almost every way? Does GWB really just hate the Iraqis that much?

/snip/

Hmm, the oppressed misery of the Zimbabwean people should be worth a little, I think.

From what I've been hearing since 2003, that wasn't a good enough reason to invade Iraq.

Let's see, what are we up to now?

Stopping tidy, well hidden, state sponsored genocide in Iraq? That's Bad

Stopping, messy, well publicized, state sponsored genocide in Sudan? That's Good

Stopping tidy, well hidden, state sponsored suffering in North Korea? That's bad

Stopping messy, well publicized, state sponsored suffering in Zimbabwe? That's good

Stopping tidy, well publicized, suppression of freedom to elect your own leaders governing the EU?
.
.
.




\The Frogurt is cursed.

This was all caused by people who wanted to dismantle colonialism even if it meant putting egomaniacal despot locals in charge. I'm sure in time we'll refer to the previous colonialism of Africa as the First Colonial period. Though this next one will be more of a hegemon. As is, China already is pretty much vanguard over Sudan.

Hmmmm. I wonder if this is the battleground of the 21st century Cold War? China vs. the U.S. fought through puppet regimes in Africa.
I would support wiping that piece of shiat Mugabe off the map, though.

He already played this game once with the North Koreans, so let's not be shocked.

http://www.nkeconwatch.com/category/countries/zimbabwe/

That was right from the very beginning, and yes, people continued supporting him after he teamed up with NK. srsly.

For all of you who like to complain about American imperialism, I hope you enjoy what's coming down the pipeline because it's going to make what we did look like child's play.

All this "ooooohhh China is new superpower" panic mongering might also consider the fact that China does not has a "SINGLE" aircraft carrier to project its "superpower" influence.

This is what GlobalSecurity.org is saying:
"The PLA Navy has studied the acquisition of an aircraft carrier since the mid-1980s, and there are persistant reports that China has plans to launch a 40,000 ton class aircraft carrier by 2010, though these reports remain unsubstantiated and appear to based on woefully inadequate analysis and information".

New China is what China always has been, a barely manageable chaotic dictatorship, teetering at the edge of survival. Their much vaunted manufacturing engine can be shut down to a halt by two well placed aircraft carrier groups on opposite sides of the China sea. Rising wages and lack of intellectual property rights in China is already pushing manufacturing out of China as we speak. Russians won't sell them arms because they openly steal technology and then lie about it. West has them under arms ambargo since 1989. They can't build a half decent aircraft jet engine themselves, using old Russian model engines for their warplanes.

_{/China is media created bogey}

luidprand: Hoarf: schoberp: ...true superpower, one that makes up for a lack of truly high-tech innovation with huge numbers of area, population, and resources.

It seems like a possibility that the next global conflict will be a battle between quantity and quality.

You just described the whole theory behind a Zerg rush.

Or the second half of the Korean War.

Or the post-Stalingrad phase of WW2 in the eastern European theater.
Yes, 1 Wehrmacht soldier easily equaled 20 to 40 Soviets. Problem was the Soviets brought 400 for every one.

I fought a war against the Chinese in the 19th century to secure opium distribution rights, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies...

/some Farkers belive anything
//yeah, that's right, "belive"

Are they protecting the torch.

schoberp: A policy that runs the real danger of creating a second true superpower, one that makes up for a lack of truly high-tech innovation

I wouldn't count on that lasting very long at all. China is turning out new engineers and scientists at many times the rate of the US. Many thousands of them educated in the best US universities.

Kar98: Or the post-Stalingrad phase of WW2 in the eastern European theater.
Yes, 1 Wehrmacht soldier easily equaled 20 to 40 Soviets. Problem was the Soviets brought 400 for every one.

Hey we did something similar. Spammed their 12,000 Panzers with 50,000 Shermans.

That worked really well, actually.

funmonger: 12,000 Panzers with 50,000 Shermans

More like 7000 Panzers.

funmonger
Hey we did something similar. Spammed their 12,000 Panzers with 50,000 Shermans.

Well... it worked. Let's just leave it at that.

So it starts to become apparent... I think it is time for you to start having "the talk" with your sons and daughters that they will have to come to terms with having to die on the battlefield with China because your generation (everyone over ~35) was too dumb to realise they were supporting the waking - totalitarian - dragon.

You have sold American leadership for cheap CRAP from China.



You are the worst generation

Kar98

Reminds me of a saying I heard somewhere:

"The Panther could take on four American Shermans. Unfortunately the Americans always had five".

WorldCitizen: schoberp: A policy that runs the real danger of creating a second true superpower, one that makes up for a lack of truly high-tech innovation

I wouldn't count on that lasting very long at all. China is turning out new engineers and scientists at many times the rate of the US. Many thousands of them educated in the best US universities.

Chinese education doesn't tend to foster creativity. Feynman wrote about this problem in non-Western educational systems. They are based purely in rote memorization, and teach no applicable problem-solving ability. In my experience with the overseas Chinese engineering students at my school, they tend to do very well in the first two years of classes (because those classes are basically all memorizing theory), but they start to fall behind quickly by the second semester of the third year, because then (at least in EE) we start doing applied problem solving and experimentation.

At this point, the Chinese couldn't build an AM radio without having stolen some plans or reverse-engineering one. Memorizing the principals of thermodynamics is all well and good, but it means dick when you can't apply them.

potee: At this point, the Chinese couldn't build an AM radio without having stolen some plans or reverse-engineering one. Memorizing the principals of thermodynamics is all well and good, but it means dick when you can't apply them.

I agree with most of what you say - but it's not going to be long before there are more Chinese companies like Huawei (^).

WorldCitizen: I wouldn't count on that lasting very long at all. China is turning out new engineers and scientists at many times the rate of the US. Many thousands of them educated in the best US universities.

I saw somewhere that China graduates 150-200,000 engineers per year. However, estimates are that no more than 10% of them could graduate from a western university.

That is the story of communist China. The focus is on numbers, not on quality. At times they have killed millions with that philosophy.

67 Beetle: Will someone remind me again why I should care if China decides to flush away manpower and money down a Zimbabwean rat-hole?

dervish16108: What does the Chinese get out of this?

FTA:
The deal gave the Chinese mineral and trade concessions in exchange for economic help.

Also, FYI, GS "Chinese in Sudan" - they've been there for decades (new window)

bolzy: China does not has a "SINGLE" aircraft carrier to project its "superpower" influence.

You are right, they don't.

Do you remember the one child policy? Do you remember that the families still kill baby girls? Did you connect the dots from this that they have an -excess- population of testosterone laden young men with NO one to marry? Last I recall (and I'm not looking it up) they have an excess of young men that is larger than the US population itself - or something ridiculous like that.

Did it occur to you that this potential standing army (read: cannon fodder) doesn't need to be particularly well equipped or trained to have a strong affect in any military situation that they thrown into?

They are not the 'big bad bogeyman' that much of the press purports them to be. At the same time, there are realities that cannot be omitted in a true evaluation.

It's no wonder the elite have disdain for you lot. If you stumbled upon something profound you'd likely roll it up in a kleenex.

My father fought the Chinese in Korea. He was on the Chosen Res. when 500,000 came over the border. He said the U.S. soldiers fired the machine guns into a human wave and they just kept climbing over the bodies. They did this till the machine gun barrels melted. Then the U.S. soldiers ran for their lives. Out of 150 guys in my dads company, 5 made it out alive. I have his bronze star that he got for surviving it on my wall. Don't ever write off the Chinese, that is exactly what they want you to do.

Tenebreux
Why should I care if some Austrian Arch-duke gets shot by anarchists in Sarajevo?

fail much? They were Serbian nationalists.

China is going to own Africa in a few decades. They're investing in countries over there like nobodies business. All the mining companies that used to be Canadian/American/British owned are now being replaced by Chinese businesses.

You may think "meh, so what, Africa is useless", which might be true if the country wasn't an absolute treasure trove of natural resources.

China doesn't have airfract carriers? That's not such a big problem, really

Yes, Chinese troops know how to kill unarmed civillians, got to teach Zimbabwe troops how.