Universal healthcare is good... unless of course your sick

It's my sick. All mine! You can't have it.

Subby, the article is about GPs not spotting the signs of cancer and listening to their patients. Nice try to tie in the Universal Health care angle though. I had to go through 5 GPs down here before I found one that didn't try to patronize me and actually listened to what I was saying.

Subby, you're an idiot. The same thing happens in the U.S. too, not just the U.K. It's a sad fact of life that doctors misdiagnose or completely miss illnesses. Some doctors are flat out bad dianosticians.

submitter: Universal healthcare is good... unless of course your sick

Because being sick without health insurance is better?

WTF?

In early 2005 my mother in-law went in for a routine Bronchoscopy (camera down into her lung). The doctor accidentally severed an artery and she bled to death in a matter of minutes. She had the best health insurance you can get. This procedure was performed in a top 100 rated hospital.

In case you haven't read the statistics, the for-profit health care we have kills about 100,000 Americans each year due to medical malpractice. So, for-profit, or not for-profit, bad crap is going to happen.

Your sick what?

Your sick mother-in-law gets cured?

Con_Authority: In early 2005 my mother in-law went in for a routine Bronchoscopy

er...

Sorry about the M-I-L crack.

Get a brains morans!

The Fail is strong in this subby.

Yeah, count me in for another "it's not the system, it's the doctor, you farking dumbass troll" and "so you think it is better to die of a hangnail because you can't afford any healthcare, right moran??" and "it's 'you're', not 'your', you pigsucking cumsock"

Another trollerific headline brought to you by an ignorant submitter and an admin in search of hits via a flamewar.

Good one, Fark. You get advertising dollars. We get stupid crap.

Nothing to see here.

I wonder if he had contractions?

same thing can be said about some of the health insurance plans I've seen.

Ok, not just some. Most.

I can sort of understand why insured people don't favor universal health care in America. "Not my problem. Why should my tax money go toward that?"

But the sad fact is not all of us have it as good as you with your employer subsidized group plan. I'm one of the uninsured because I'm self-employed and an individual plan is just simply unaffordable at over $5000 a year.

There are several health issues with me that I really need to get checked out, but without insurance you get no service unless you can pay in-full that day. I have suffered through illnesses rather than going to a doctor because I knew I didn't have the hundreds of dollars it would cost for treatment and medicine.

There is one exception where I'll get immediate treatment; an emergency like a heart attack, stroke, serious injury, etc. And then they'll send me a bill. Some emergency visits and the ensuing care can easily top $100,000. If that were to happen I would either be bankrupt, or I would lose everything I own and become homeless. God forbid I ever need an organ transplant - ain't gonna happen. That's what it's like living without insurance in America.

Try buying insurance if you're sick.

Other industrialized countries spend far less on health care and get more. Blind ideology is why people don't want to admit that.

It's not ah tumah!

space_cadet_28: Try buying insurance if you're sick.

And possession of a marijuana cigarette gets you ten years in jail because its bad for you, because the government cares about your health.

Or, you could get a corporate HMO plan, like the one I got when I went to work for the City. The object of the game is to keep you from getting care or medications, because the insurance company provides those, and it cuts their income every time they see someone or fill a prescription for copay. Here's how it works:

I call my doctor for an appointment. I tell them I'm sick, I have what looks like a sinus infection and OTC meds aren't taking care of it. They refer me to an intake nurse.

Intake nurse runs down a yes/no checklist and informs me I'm not sick enough. I tell her I have a history of sinus infections - even got hospitalized for one once - and I know it when I see it. My right eye is going to be swollen shut in 2 days if I don't get help. I'm watching really ugly, nasty things coming out of my nose and lungs. I need help.

Sorry, my intake score isn't high enough. Call back when it gets worse.

But wait - I need a refill on my meds, and that requires me to see the doc this time around! Bingo! I call and make the appointment.

I get there, and the receptionist notices I'm sick. She hands me a packet that contains a paper surgical mask, an alcohol wipe and a pocket-pack of kleenex, with admonition to keep my germs to myself. I wait until 30 minutes after my appointment time.

My doc is busy, so I get shunted to another doc. He runs me through my entire history, since he's too lazy to look it up on the computer. I tell him about my current condition. He informs me we're here to talk about my medication. The upper respiratory thing is not on the intake.

His nurse directs me to the pharmacy for my meds and tells me (even though she hadn't seen me today and we haven't spoken), that I have a virus and prescribing an antibiotic or something would be bad for the environment. Buh-bye.

So, yeah - socialized medicine is looking better for me. It certainly couldn't be worse. I'm STILL hacking up greenish crap and blowing out things I'd rather not describe in polite company. 10 days after it all started. Still not sick enough to get the golden ticket in to talk to a doctor.

Private healthcare good - unless of course you're poor.

Cinletharwi: It's not ah tumah!

yes it is.

/brain tumah
//astrocytoma on the corpus callosum
///neurofibromotosis 1
///onset of Myotonic Dystrophy

/for all ye naysayers
//i also thing i MAY have asperger's....i just dont like people or relate to people at all. severe social inneptness

Hey SUBBY

Why don't you watch an episode of House and see how hard it is to correctly diagnose extremely rare diseases.

My wife had the same type of problem, for over a year the doctors told her she had Mono because none of them bothered to do any actual tests. When she managed to convice them to actually do some bloody tests, they finally discovered it was Ovarian cancer.

Epsilon: There is one exception where I'll get immediate treatment; an emergency like a heart attack, stroke, serious injury, etc. And then they'll send me a bill. Some emergency visits and the ensuing care can easily top $100,000. If that were to happen I would either be bankrupt, or I would lose everything I own and become homeless. God forbid I ever need an organ transplant - ain't gonna happen. That's what it's like living without insurance in America.

If you're really worried about something like that, you may want to look into catastrophic insurance. It's basically a health care plan with an obscenely high deductible, like $5000 or so. It obviously won't cover you if you go to the doctor with the sniffles, but if you get hit by a bus, you won't go bankrupt. Costs something like $800 a year depending on your age.

Believe it or not, cancer is farking RARE. 99%* of the time, unexplained weight loss, fatigue, aches and pains are due to:

- Stress
- Not Sleeping (see: Stress)
- Not Exercising
- Bad Diet
- Stress

It's really hard to spot most cancers. Most early diagnosis are the result of pure blind luck on an unrelated test. Unfortunately, the tests for cancer are usually incredibly invasive and raise the risk of other cancers substantially. CT-scans have been linked with increases in incidence of several cancers, and large numbers of X-rays are known to damage the health and promote cancer as well. Those radioactive dyes you need to injest/inject for several scans aren't that great for you either.

It's always a risk/reward balance with modern medicine. If this particular patient in the article was presenting classic stress-related indigestion complaints, then the doctor was absolutely right to try and reassure the patient, prescribe some mild indigestion aids and send them home.

The most important part of your diagnosis is the initial checks the doctor is doing to you as you walk in... assessing your general pallor, your blood pressure, your disposition, and the way you answer their questions. If you start out with vague symptoms and rapidly converge on a core set of classic serious illness symptoms, they are likely to dismiss you as a internet hypochondriac. If you require more probing to determine your symptoms (many of which can be quite serious-seeming to you but completely clinically insignificant) they are more likely to take your complaint seriously.

Remember, medicine is truly an art form. Don't try and fark with the Doctor, they are just going to send you out like a scorned painter.

* This is a 100% factual statistic

12349876: Hey SUBBY

Why don't you watch an episode of House and see how hard it is to correctly diagnose extremely rare diseases.

Duh, it's lupus.

Mavian: My wife had the same type of problem, for over a year the doctors told her she had Mono because none of them bothered to do any actual tests. When she managed to convice them to actually do some bloody tests, they finally discovered it was Ovarian cancer.

Mono is a very common disease that is notoriously hard to detect with testing. Ovarian cancer is a rare disease that probably wouldn't have any indicators to differentiate it from Mono.

Raised white blood cell count, fatigue, abdominal distress... classic Mono symptoms.

NeuroticRocker: Cinletharwi: It's not ah tumah!

yes it is.

/brain tumah
//astrocytoma on the corpus callosum
///neurofibromotosis 1
///onset of Myotonic Dystrophy

/for all ye naysayers
//i also thing i MAY have asperger's....i just dont like people or relate to people at all. severe social inneptness

You don't have Asperger's (golden rule of self diagnosis of mental disorders: YOU'RE WRONG) and if a neurologist or oncologist has diagnosed you with a brain tumor... I wish you all the luck. Those are usually pretty nasty to deal with.

Bored Horde: NeuroticRocker: Cinletharwi: It's not ah tumah!

yes it is.

/brain tumah
//astrocytoma on the corpus callosum
///neurofibromotosis 1
///onset of Myotonic Dystrophy

/for all ye naysayers
//i also thing i MAY have asperger's....i just dont like people or relate to people at all. severe social inneptness

You don't have Asperger's (golden rule of self diagnosis of mental disorders: YOU'RE WRONG) and if a neurologist or oncologist has diagnosed you with a brain tumor... I wish you all the luck. Those are usually pretty nasty to deal with.

all the medical stuff is true. been diagnosed and all. i DID have barin surgery (yes, i know what i said) in 1998, but not all of the tumor was removable. i just got insurance via work, though i havent used it yet. And to be honest, i do need another MRI because ive had extremely painful headaches lately. but i think its also do to my complete lack of excersise and poor eating habits.

and sleep issues.

on the mental note, i dont need no doc to know i have depression. and it is fact that i am socially retarded. its abnormally bad. not social axiety. not social awkwardness. just behavior so innapropriate, people dont want to be around me. BUT i try damn hard, and the overcompensation is just too awkward for people.

ive learned to be alone so much that hanging out is a major deal for me. i am alone as much as possible.

so i know i cant self-diagnose, but i do know that the i have enough physical things to worry about. the social/mental/emotional issues are just icing on the cake....not ot mention the growth on the back of my head that makes people uncomfortable

Remove all Republicans: Mavian: My wife had the same type of problem, for over a year the doctors told her she had Mono because none of them bothered to do any actual tests. When she managed to convice them to actually do some bloody tests, they finally discovered it was Ovarian cancer.

Imagine we had a society that focused on people's health not on profits. We put too much focus on profitability not enough on doing good things.

And without profit you wouldn't find anyone to do it. Altruism doesn't pay the bills.

what i forgot to say its that its been almost 10 years since my last MRI....i better get on that, but my depression and apathy sort of keeps me from caring or wanting to get the MRI because i know that if there was a diagnosis of another tumor, i wouldnt get it treated.

/why?
//bcuz im teh fkd ^ in da hed

NeuroticRocker: all the medical stuff is true. been diagnosed and all. i DID have barin surgery (yes, i know what i said) in 1998, but not all of the tumor was removable. i just got insurance via work, though i havent used it yet. And to be honest, i do need another MRI because ive had extremely painful headaches lately. but i think its also do to my complete lack of excersise and poor eating habits.

and sleep issues.

on the mental note, i dont need no doc to know i have depression. and it is fact that i am socially retarded. its abnormally bad. not social axiety. not social awkwardness. just behavior so innapropriate, people dont want to be around me. BUT i try damn hard, and the overcompensation is just too awkward for people.

ive learned to be alone so much that hanging out is a major deal for me. i am alone as much as possible.

so i know i cant self-diagnose, but i do know that the i have enough physical things to worry about. the social/mental/emotional issues are just icing on the cake....not ot mention the growth on the back of my head that makes people uncomfortable

I'm a biological engineer by training, so I know all to well about people extending beyond their abilities. Fark is not the place you should be looking for help, you should seek out some mental health professionals and see about taking some diagnostic interviews/tests to see what they think. I say this with the knowledge of the stigma towards mental illness that pervades our society :P

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Remove all Republicans: Mavian: My wife had the same type of problem, for over a year the doctors told her she had Mono because none of them bothered to do any actual tests. When she managed to convice them to actually do some bloody tests, they finally discovered it was Ovarian cancer.

Imagine we had a society that focused on people's health not on profits. We put too much focus on profitability not enough on doing good things.

And without profit you wouldn't find anyone to do it. Altruism doesn't pay the bills.

Doctor's make pretty bad money for the amount of training they receive, the hours that they work, the overhead they run, and the stress they deal with. Most doctor's aren't in it for the cash.

The million-dollar a year miracle surgeons are the rough equivalent of a private sector CEO making a hundred million a year.

Altruism doesn't pay the bills.

It sure don't. But neither does farking the customer for a short-term profit every chance you get.

Look, I'm a firefighter/paramedic. And yeah, everyone's got a mortgage to pay. But at the end of the day, as long as my job pays that, I don't really give a fark that I'm making 1/3 of what my kid brother the corporate lawyer makes.

Plus, he's stressed as fark; meanwhile, I love my life, and I sleep well at night.

The point I'm trying to make is, yes, people want to make a damn living. But once basic needs are satisfied, the doctors, nurses, and techs who have direct contact with patients aren't really concerned with the money side of things. Ultimately, they took a job dealing with vomit, shiat, and other disgusting bodily fluids because they want to help other people, and they find value beyond money in that.

So no, altruism alone doesn't pay the bills. But it makes the bills worth paying.

Bored Horde: Doctor's make pretty bad money for the amount of training they receive, the hours that they work, the overhead they run, and the stress they deal with. Most doctor's aren't in it for the cash.

I say they're overpaid. Especially general practitioners. Medicine has become so specialized that the GP of today is nothing more than a glorified intake nurse. Some won't even treat you for bumps and cuts these days. You'd be surprised at some of the crap I've heard come out of docs mouths' about payment. It seems like the younger generation is in it for the money.

CarolynLibrarian: Or, you could get a corporate HMO plan, like the one I got when I went to work for the City.

"I too work for the City, my friend! Let us work for justice... TOGETHER!"



/pretty flimsy excuse to reference The Tick
//any excuse to reference The Tick is good enough, I say

It didn't work, damn it. I HATE that.

space_cadet_28: Try buying insurance if you're sick.

Other industrialized countries spend far less on health care and get more. Blind ideology is why people don't want to admit that.

The Canadian government refuses to buy drugs until they've been on the market for years. From 1997 to 1999, 100 drugs were introduced in America; only 43 of them became available in Canada.

In the interest of national budgets, state-administered health systems have an incentive to put saving money before saving lives. Each year, shortages of funds, personnel and facilities force the British system to cancel as many as 100, 000 operations.

In the United States, the survival rate is 90 percent for patients diagnosed with Stage I colon cancer; in Britain, it's 70 percent. For American women diagnosed with Stage I breast cancer, 97 percent are alive after five years; in Britain, it's 78 percent. When adjusted for age, U.S. cancer deaths have fallen 1 percent per year since 1991.


Chaoulli vs. Quebec on June 9, 2005
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that prohibitions on private insurance are invalid since the public system has failed to deliver medical in a timely, reliable way and that Government bans on private health insurance have increased the risk to the life and health of Canadians:

"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care, " the court said in its ruling.

"The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread and that in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care, "

A&E patients left in ambulances for up to FIVE hours 'so trusts can meet government targets'
By DANIEL MARTIN - Last updated at 01:01am on 18th February 2008
Seriously ill patients are being kept in ambulances outside hospitals for hours so NHS trusts do not miss Government targets.
Thousands of people a year are having to wait outside accident and emergency departments because trusts will not let them in until they can treat them within four hours, in line with a Labour pledge.
The hold-ups mean ambulances are not available to answer fresh 999 calls.
Scroll down for more...

Ambulances: 'A colossal waste of resources says the union Unison
Doctors warned last night that the practice of "patient-stacking" was putting patients' health at risk.
Figures obtained by the Liberal Democrats show that last year 43,576 patients waited longer than one hour before being let into emergency units.

Bored Horde: NeuroticRocker: all the medical stuff is true. been diagnosed and all. i DID have barin surgery (yes, i know what i said) in 1998, but not all of the tumor was removable. i just got insurance via work, though i havent used it yet. And to be honest, i do need another MRI because ive had extremely painful headaches lately. but i think its also do to my complete lack of excersise and poor eating habits.

and sleep issues.

on the mental note, i dont need no doc to know i have depression. and it is fact that i am socially retarded. its abnormally bad. not social axiety. not social awkwardness. just behavior so innapropriate, people dont want to be around me. BUT i try damn hard, and the overcompensation is just too awkward for people.

ive learned to be alone so much that hanging out is a major deal for me. i am alone as much as possible.

so i know i cant self-diagnose, but i do know that the i have enough physical things to worry about. the social/mental/emotional issues are just icing on the cake....not ot mention the growth on the back of my head that makes people uncomfortable

I'm a biological engineer by training, so I know all to well about people extending beyond their abilities. Fark is not the place you should be looking for help, you should seek out some mental health professionals and see about taking some diagnostic interviews/tests to see what they think. I say this with the knowledge of the stigma towards mental illness that pervades our society :P

fark is both the cause of, and solution to, my problems:

-certain get off my lawn articles get me all worked up

-then i read one that everyone is upset by, and i agree, and feel better that im not alone

i dont have the mental or physical energy to pay some douche bag to nod at me and ask "and how does that make you feel?" when i can vent anonymously for free here

im not using fark for therapy. i just dont feel threatened because im not looking at a person when i type

hasty ambush: The Canadian government refuses to buy drugs until they've been on the market for years. From 1997 to 1999, 100 drugs were introduced in America; only 43 of them became available in Canada.

Because believe it or not, slightly repackaging an old drug with another old drug and showing very marginal increases in performance coupled with increases in negative side effects is not a great way to convince someone that you're interested in patient health.

Most of the 'new' drugs that come out are really repackaged old drugs that have found to be effective against obscure diseases, usually with horrific side effects in the dosages required to impact the new target.

hasty ambush: crap

Why do you only focus on Canada and the UK? Try Germany or Japan.

hasty ambush I could dump a load of stories about people denied life-saving treatments in America, but anecdotes are silly.

NeuroticRocker Whatever works for you. And actually, you'd be surprised how effective the combination of regular visits to a therapist combined with psychiatric intervention (when required) is. If you follow the treatment regime, it usually works.

Remove all Republicans: Mavian: My wife had the same type of problem, for over a year the doctors told her she had Mono because none of them bothered to do any actual tests. When she managed to convice them to actually do some bloody tests, they finally discovered it was Ovarian cancer.

Imagine we had a society that focused on people's health not on profits. We put too much focus on profitability not enough on doing good things.

In the interest of national budgets, state-administered health systems have an incentive to put saving money before saving lives. Each year, shortages of funds, personnel and facilities force the British system to cancel as many as 100, 000 operations.

"A recent study that examined over 5, 800 Swedish patients on a wait list for heart surgery found that the long wait has consequences far worse than pain, anxiety or monetary cost.29 In this study, the median wait time was found to be 55 days. While on the waiting list, 77 patients died."

Link (new window)

12349876: Why don't you watch an episode of House and see how hard it is to correctly diagnose extremely rare diseases.

Exactly.

Because most people all riddled with exotic illnesses with symptoms that mask other exotic illnesses, requiring a battery of repeating tests administered under the direction of a bitter doctor with the sardonic wit of a college age intellectual bully.

Oh, wait, that's just on TV.

Gwendolyn: Subby, the article is about GPs not spotting the signs of cancer and listening to their patients. Nice try to tie in the Universal Health care angle though. I had to go through 5 GPs down here before I found one that didn't try to patronize me and actually listened to what I was saying.

So you went from doctor to doctor until one finally told you what you wanted to hear? Wow, you should join the Clinton campaign.

SynthLord: Because most people all riddled with exotic illnesses with symptoms that mask other exotic illnesses, requiring a battery of repeating tests administered under the direction of a bitter doctor with the sardonic wit of a college age intellectual bully.

That's what the article was about. Somebody with a very rare and hard to detect disease. And as someone who lost my mother to cancer after a number of misdiagnoses, I consider myself more of an expert than you.

Bored Horde: Most of the 'new' drugs that come out are really repackaged old drugs that have found to be effective against obscure diseases, usually with horrific side effects in the dosages required to impact the new target.

I am glad you aren't involved in the pharmaceutical industry because your understanding is pretty limited. Yes, a lot of drugs are "me too" drugs(look at Claritin, Clarinex for a fine example of that bullshiat) but side effects are not a desired drug quality.

We should leave it up to the doctors to filter what drugs we get not some politician.

Doc Lee: hasty ambush: crap

Why do you only focus on Canada and the UK? Try Germany or Japan.

Germany's got problems too:

German healthcare reform 'is not final'
By Hugh Williamson in London

Link (new window)

"Peer Steinbrück, German finance minister, has admitted the problems of reforming the country's overburdened healthcare system "are still on the table", in spite of claims by Angela Merkel, chancellor, that last week's reorganisation would hold for decades.

Mr Steinbrück told the Financial Times that tax rises would be necessary as tax revenues gradually supplemented payroll contributions in the €140bn health financing system."

(new window)

The SHI crisis

So, what exactly are the reasons of the crisis our German SHI system suffers from? Basically it is about an imbalance between expenses and revenues. Let's have a look at the revenues of the system:

Our biggest problem is the system's high dependence on economic performance and unemployment in particular:

:: In times of recession and high unemployment, contributions decrease immediately.

:: Also, the wages reflect the low economic performance. As contributions directly depend on salaries, they are kept down as well.

Another important reason for decreasing revenues is the demographic change, which I have already mentioned. Due to a higher life expectancy and a trend towards childlessness, the share of aged people in society is growing. This is not without consequences for the SHI:

:: An ever growing share of pensioners within the system contribute less to the shiathan active employees. Additionally, pensions do not rise as quick as wages.


and Japan's

Link (new window)

Postal Penguin: Bored Horde: Most of the 'new' drugs that come out are really repackaged old drugs that have found to be effective against obscure diseases, usually with horrific side effects in the dosages required to impact the new target.

I am glad you aren't involved in the pharmaceutical industry because your understanding is pretty limited. Yes, a lot of drugs are "me too" drugs(look at Claritin, Clarinex for a fine example of that bullshiat) but side effects are not a desired drug quality.

We should leave it up to the doctors to filter what drugs we get not some politician.

Chief, most of these drug assessment agencies are staffed by doctors. Here is the Canadian version:

Link (new window) I'm sure you can find the analogous body for the FDA.

And here is the Link to the government body, fully staffed with doctors, that reviews the evidence and decides whether or not to act on this exciting new money grab medical innovation

I don't know about all the rest, but I do know this... prescription drugs should not be advertised in mass media.

Bathia_Mapes: Subby, you're an idiot. The same thing happens in the U.S. too, not just the U.K. It's a sad fact of life that doctors misdiagnose or completely miss illnesses. Some doctors are flat out bad dianosticians

I want to reiterate how much of an idiot subby is as well.

I would also like to point out that the better access to GPs in places like britain and canada (yes, I said greater) gives more opportunity for prevention and therefore a higher probability for earlier cancer prevention. Especially in colon and cervical, which can be stopped and treated before it ever starts.

But hey, it's all about the monster under your bed for you right? First it was a big furry one with sharp teeth, now it's a single payer system. Good to know you keep your youthful (childish) ways about you even in your adult years.

Bored Horde: Mono is a very common disease that is notoriously hard to detect with testing. Ovarian cancer is a rare disease that probably wouldn't have any indicators to differentiate it from Mono.

BS. Atypical lymphocytes are present early. Splenic enlargement sometimes. Barring that, you can have the patient come in for a follow up in a week or two, by then the antibodies have built up and are easily detected on serum tests.

if a doc cant diagnose mono, then get a new doc.

/but true the O CA is rare enough that it's not often in the differential.