Authorities have said their April 3 raid on the Eldorado ranch came after a girl's whispered telephone call for help to a family violence shelter. Texas has since taken legal custody of 416 children on suspicion that they were being sexually and physically abused.


the conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that the cops placed that call themselves....but that's just the writer's impulse acting up again.

I feel so torn on this one if it was a hoax.

On one hand, without placing a hoax call, these sickos would have kept on abusing young girls and everyone would be too afraid to speak out for fear of death or worse.

On the other hand, what kind of precedent does planting evidence against someone "society" deems evil create? I mean, they'll still have to go to trial, but we have these legal rules for a reason.

Hey, if God told em to pork all those chicks, then who are we to say them nay

?

Weaver95:
the conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that the cops placed that call themselves....but that's just the writer's impulse acting up again.

The county is feeling real financial pain from the expenses, and having hundreds of religious rapes, molestation, and incest cases put on the network news hurts their political chances come election time. Cops don't bring extra work and piles of "why didn't you do anything sooner" on themselves, as a matter of habit.

What is the argument against polygamy? if three or more consenting adult want to marry each other they should be able to do so.

klymen: What is the argument against polygamy? if three or more consenting adult want to marry each other they should be able to do so.

It depends. I can see how it could work, but in the form practiced by these extremists, it's an inherently exploitative, abusive institution.

klymen: What is the argument against polygamy? if three or more consenting adult want to marry each other they should be able to do so.

Key words there are "consenting adult."

Forced marriages (what is alleged with this group) are not cool, regardless of the age of the participants, and regardless if it's only one pair, for that matter.

I only yesterday saw a picture of that white compound, in the Chicago Tribune. Have they always lived all in that one building (or did they all live in there)?

I remember some other article (linked here?) about a woman escaping from such a church with most of her kids, left one behind. I don't recall if it was the same group, but hearing "Jeffs" I'm thinking maybe it was. Somehow that article made me think they were living in a small town, in regular houses just with most town residents belonging to the church.

Anyone know more? Yeah yeah, I should google...

jake_lex: It depends. I can see how it could work, but in the form practiced by these extremists, it's an inherently exploitative, abusive institution.

Well, as long as it's illegal all of these institutions will be exploitative and abusive. If it's made legal like same-sex marriages then people would be protected by law and number of abusive cases will be just as much normal marriages. They'd be able to get out of it anytime they wish and overtime it would become acceptable like same-sex marriage.

/Canadian, hence the statement that same-sex marriage is legal.

itazurakko: Key words there are "consenting adult."

Forced marriages (what is alleged with this group) are not cool, regardless of the age of the participants, and regardless if it's only one pair, for that matter.

So you think polygamy should be allowed if everyone's consenting?

klymen:

So you think polygamy should be allowed if everyone's consenting?

Anyone capable of giving informed consent should be able to enter into such a contract (including gays).

.

klymen: itazurakko: Key words there are "consenting adult."

Forced marriages (what is alleged with this group) are not cool, regardless of the age of the participants, and regardless if it's only one pair, for that matter.

So you think polygamy should be allowed if everyone's consenting?

from the report, the girls in that compound were in no way old enough to be "consenting" in any form.

These people have no credibility whatsoever. I'm going to believe the cops on this short of extraordinary evidence to the contrary. Regardless, I think it's pretty much irrelevant, except as a legal issue. There was more than enough evidence to warrant the raid even without a phone call like that.

They can all live in my dungeon.

klymen: So you think polygamy should be allowed if everyone's consenting?

My general gut response is, yeah.

Mind, the financial implications would need to be considered (so many things are built on the idea of paired units, from health insurance coverage to inheritance).

But I do think the main problem with this (these?) group is the forced marriage aspect. If it were a bunch of people in a poly relationship, and they ran afoul of existing law, odds are they'd either be fined for some financial problem, or just denied recognition (law sees wife #1 as real wife, everyone then gets busted for fraud).

FWIW I know some people in a long term poly relationship, though not overly well. I can't imagine it for myself, but they all seem happy enough. They do realize that legally, they're only a legal corporation type partnership.

So? If the police initially had reason to believe a crime was being committed, I think any evidence of wrongdoing is still valid even if it was a hoax.

/not a law talking guy
//I'd like to declare a bad trial thingy

Even if they planted the evidence, I don't care.

fark pedos.

klymen: What is the argument against polygamy? if three or more consenting adult want to marry each other they should be able to do so.

I have no personal moral objection to polygamy. But what these cultists were doing was basically child molesting. They were marrying off children (minors) to adult men. I doubt there was much, if any, consent involved on the girls' part.

o/t

Has anyone posted Mark Speight turning up dead in Paddington Station yet?


I've no idea how to post articles, mainly as I've never tried, but someone must be able to find an amusing headline for a tragedy with few details so far.

Cheers.

Probably something to do with bears would suffice.

A hoax?



/You are so getting a beating later

Telephone company records are the first things the defense should check. What number originated the call and where was it located? And is there a recording?

...............An old adage..........
He who writes history. Made the whole thing up.

What is the argument against polygamy? if three or more consenting adult want to marry each other they should be able to do so.

Can you imagine how three way divorces would go, especially if kids were involved??

I am going to assume that the defense lawyers are saying this not because its true (lawyers are not famous for their truthfulness) but because it is their clients' only plausible defense. They are obviously responsible for the forced underage marriages, so only a legal loophole will get them off.

My initial thought on hearing this story was that the phone call was a fake set up by some group that was looking to clear out the enclave. We'll see if they ever find this girl.

That being said, I don't necessarily disagree with the methods of the yet unnamed individual who placed the call.

Sweet, an quasi-religious-incestual-pedophilia thread!

Hold on while I find my thumb drive

wait what happened?

/DNRTFA
//or the above comments

jjorsett: s

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the call was to a women's shelter or something and not directly to the authorities, 911, etc. So there may not be a recording.

Man On Fire: from the report, the girls in that compound were in no way old enough to be "consenting" in any form.

Ral: But what these cultists were doing was basically child molesting. They were marrying off children (minors) to adult men. I doubt there was much, if any, consent involved on the girls' part.

itazurakko: But I do think the main problem with this (these?) group is the forced marriage aspect.


I know about these cults and by no means these people should be allowed to do what they do. But my comment was a general statement regarding polygamy among consenting adults and whether anyone thought it should not be allowed.

We really should draw the line at religions that promote having many wives. And ones that state your soul is actually a being from another planet. And ones that say an invisible guy in the sky is watching all we do and listens to us when we speak to him. And ones....aw fark it.

Regardless, that cult's practices were an endangerment to children and women. It should have been broken up.

/// not amused (multiple slashie for multiple partners)

Mormonism is proof that being a Scientologist will one day be acceptable. People sure are strange.

i seem to remember hearing something on CNN yesterday that there were records of the girl (or at least a girl with the same name) in the Church's records...I don't know for sure and Iam too lazy to look it up.

klymen: What is the argument against polygamy? if three or more consenting adult want to marry each other they should be able to do so.

-From a purely financial standpoint, polygamous marriages of the one male, many female sort tend to lead to difficulties supporting the upbringing of children in the same vein as single mothers everywhere. Welfare fraud is a common practice among religious groups who support polygamy. As long as the state feels that it is obligated to offer welfare programs, allowing polygamous marriages will only expand the welfare rolls and associated costs.

From a social standpoint, polygamy can lead to communities having large numbers of men who are unable to marry since a minority of males monopolize the eligible females. A large number of men being unable to marry leads to a host of other problems, especially increased crime. Some religious groups simply abandon young males or expel them from their home communities to avoid such a situation.

What's the big deal about polygamy anyway? If a dude wants to saddle himself with multiple wives, and can afford it, why not?

/serves him right.

shatfark: Can you imagine how three way divorces would go, especially if kids were involved??

It would depend on how the laws are rewritten to handle it.

One COULD have a system where the only people with legal claim to the kid are the bio parents and anyone who went out of the way to adopt (so a kid would always have two parents, with possible step-parents).

In such a system, I imagine a divorce would be similar to what happens when parents (either both or one) leave other sorts of communes and kibbutzes.

Bottom line being though, certainly a bunch of laws would need to be reconsidered.

klymen: But my comment was a general statement regarding polygamy among consenting adults and whether anyone thought it should not be allowed.

Like I said, my general feeling is, go for it. I don't find it any beyond the pale situation - though I do think it would mean a lot of rewriting of systems (not inherently a bad thing). Perhaps it'd be a good time to just say "civil unions for all" while we're at it.

farking Mormons. Hooray for a religion full of sexism, racism and misogyny.

Makes sense that it would be a hoax.

A) It would explain why they've searched every square inch of the compound, "liberated" hundreds of women and children, but haven't turned up the one 16-year-old girl who blew the whistle. The only other explanation is that the cult leaders somehow figured out who made the call, and have either hid her away somewhere off-site, or have done something more sinister.

B) Does anyone here know the number for a good "family violence shelter"? I don't. Does anyone here believe that a girl trapped in a cult compound where people dress like 19th Century American pioneers would track down such an organization when she could simply dial "911"? Of course, if the official story involved her calling 911, the police would have to produce a recording of the call; so you say she called some random shelter for battered women and avoid having to say you lost the 911 tape.

/approves of the take-down of the cult

One problem with polygamy a lot of people overlook is it creates a class of young men with no future. If the odds are you'll never marry, have kids, etc because the old rich guys are taking all the women, you aren't left with too many options. People without many options are prime targets for extremist groups of all stripes, up to and including terrorists and suicide bombers.

While we don't have that specific problem with Mormons, it's definitely something to think about.

klymen: What is the argument against polygamy? if three or more consenting adult want to marry each other they should be able to do so.

Dude they take cats away from crazy cat ladies when they reach 100 cats or so. Taking multiple wives is a man's version of cat ladyism. And the 416 kids is like the crazy cat lady times a million. Dude. Come on.

This is sexual slavery. A whole little culture based on keeping women subserviant and dependant on a few powerful men. If any of the other men in the group fall out of favor with the leadership, they are excommunicated, kicked out, and their wives and children are distributed to the more loyal men.

How we have let this go on so long is beyond me. Now they're entrenched and whole generations have grown up thinking their way of life is normal, that they will go to hell if they don't give up their daughters.

State_College_Arsonist: Dammit, you beat me to it by four minutes while I was typing mine.

Did anybody but me wonder why the buses that took them out were from some baptist church from the markings on them? Just asking, but it looked like dueling religions there.

Ral: I have no personal moral objection to polygamy. But what these cultists were doing was basically child molesting. They were marrying off children (minors) to adult men. I doubt there was much, if any, consent involved on the girls' part.

I agree with your comment regarding consent. I doubt that consent was even considered, never mind given.

Nor do I have a moral objection to polygamy per se, although I think from a sociological point of view it will lead to an unstable society.

If all the women were in a polygamous relationship with a man, that would mean anywhere from 5 to 15 percent of men are married to multiple female partners of reproductive age, and the remaining men would be- by no choice of their own- single.

And with these polygamous sects- i.e. fundamentalist Mormonism, even the men who get left out are expected to be celibate before marriage. And we all know they are not going to be married since all the eligible women are taken.

Additionally many of these fundamentalist Mormons do not allow divorce. So if you're the 85% to 95%. left out of the coochie jackpot, you're not likely to get even the leftovers from a bad marriage.

That many men in a forced lifetime of celibacy are going to get real mad real quick. You can expect unrest and crime.

A few generations like that and I can guarantee a society ready to tear itself apart in a nasty uprising.

Hosebeatings: One problem with polygamy a lot of people overlook is it creates a class of young men with no future. If the odds are you'll never marry, have kids, etc because the old rich guys are taking all the women, you aren't left with too many options.
While we don't have that specific problem with Mormons, it's definitely something to think about.

ORLY?
Link (new window)

lenfromak: Did anybody but me wonder why the buses that took them out were from some baptist church from the markings on them? Just asking, but it looked like dueling religions there.

It's Texas, dude. They ain't quite tame yet down there.

Kali-Yuga: ORLY?

I was referring to terrorism, not polygamy, you twit. Does anyone NOT know Mormons are into polygamy?

"One problem with polygamy a lot of people overlook is it creates a class of young men with no future. If the odds are you'll never marry, have kids, etc because the old rich guys are taking all the women, you aren't left with too many options. People without many options are prime targets for extremist groups of all stripes, up to and including terrorists and suicide bombers."

I don't think we'd get suicide bombers. We don't have that sort of religious tradition. We may get gangs of "widowmakers" who kill polygamist husbands and you'll likely have gangs run by guys who have multiple wives and loan them out to members as partial payment.