i'd imagine it's about the same as young americans' view of the religious right. there are a few that buy into it, but the vast majority think they are a bunch of crazy fundie douchebags.

More bad news from Iraq, eh?

burndtdan: i'd imagine it's about the same as young americans' view of the religious right. there are a few that buy into it, but the vast majority think they are a bunch of crazy fundie douchebags.

Except that the religious right here hasn't exactly been setting off IEDs all over the place.

Nabb1: burndtdan: i'd imagine it's about the same as young americans' view of the religious right. there are a few that buy into it, but the vast majority think they are a bunch of crazy fundie douchebags.

Except that the religious right here hasn't exactly been setting off IEDs all over the place.

Well, except for certain clinics...

/Yeah, I know, not "all over the place"...

Dancin_In_Anson: , eh?

I'm starting to think you're an undercover canadian.

Nabb1: Except that the religious right here hasn't exactly been setting off IEDs all over the place.

And randomly walking up to, say, Catholics and shooting them dead in the street solely because they are Catholic, and getting in the car like nothing had happened (as referenced in the story).

I'm not surprised that the young are turning against it -- they are the ones ultimately paying the highest price for such chaos and bloodshed.

No matter what one thinks about the war itself, everyone has to applaud this type of news.

The Onanist: Well, except for certain clinics...

Just out of curiosity, since these abortion clinic bombings are used so frequently to slight the fundamentalist Christians, does anyone know when the last time was that a clinic was bombed and it had been tied to a militant Christian? I know there were a spate of them in late 1990's/early 2000's, but I don't remember hearing about one in years.

Nabb1: Except that the religious right here hasn't exactly been setting off IEDs all over the place.

i wasn't saying the two groups are the same, just analogous to their respective national youth.

KaponoFor3: I'm not surprised that the young are turning against it -- they are the ones ultimately paying the highest price for such chaos and bloodshed.

not to mention the islamists are conservative religious nutbar salafists who want to take the fun out of life and live by sharia and the "true" islam of the prophet. the young don't want this gloomy future.

imagine if fred phelps and john hagee had militias and were fighting to control the congress.

It's good to read that radical ideology is meeting with skepticism from within. Not surprisingly, it's attributed mostly to personal hardship rather than philosophical disagreement.

burndtdan: Nabb1: Except that the religious right here hasn't exactly been setting off IEDs all over the place.

i wasn't saying the two groups are the same, just analogous to their respective national youth.

Maybe. I grew up in South Carolina and found the evangelicals rather annoying, and one of the reasons I moved away. I would not dare equate my experiences as a youngster with the horrific sectarian violence young Iraqis have seen at the hands of Islamic extremists or my feelings about evangelicals with their feelings about the people perpetrating those horrific acts of violence.

We have won the hearts and minds!!!!

Mission Accomplished!

I applaud skepticism as applied to all religions, and particularly those that preach and act upon hate and violence. So good on the youth in Iraq for recognizing that in the Muslim clerics. It's unfortunate that it takes first-hand exposure to those things to come to that skepticism, though.

KaponoFor3: Just out of curiosity

Check it out.

KaponoFor3: The Onanist: Well, except for certain clinics...

Just out of curiosity, since these abortion clinic bombings are used so frequently to slight the fundamentalist Christians, does anyone know when the last time was that a clinic was bombed and it had been tied to a militant Christian? I know there were a spate of them in late 1990's/early 2000's, but I don't remember hearing about one in years.

Arson seems to be way more prevalent than the bombings.

Stats for arson/bombings (pops)

The so-called holy men exhorting this shiat aren't fighting, dying, or holy.

Code_Archeologist: Easy word association exercise to help people understand radical islam's role in the greater experience of the muslim world.

Radical Islam is to the Muslim Religion
as
The Klu Klux Klan is to Christianity

Uh, not really close there, sparky. Maybe you can find some ideological parallels, but in sheer numbers and acts of violence, there is no comparison.

KaponoFor3:

Just out of curiosity, since these abortion clinic bombings are used so frequently to slight the fundamentalist Christians, does anyone know when the last time was that a clinic was bombed and it had been tied to a militant Christian? I know there were a spate of them in late 1990's/early 2000's, but I don't remember hearing about one in years.

Quick Googley goodness:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/

The Planned Parenthood on my street always has at least one patient escort working the door. The one that has been doing mornings recently is a nice grandmotherly-looking lady who waves to me during my commute.

We're in a very nice, liberal neighborhood. The problem is that the crazies all have transportation, and it's not like upstate NY doesn't have a history of violence against abortion-performing OB/GYNs.

The Onanist: Stats for arson/bombings (pops)

Seems like the mid to late 90's was really the heyday for such attacks. Definitely have curtailed drastically since then.

Code_Archeologist: Radical Islam is to the Muslim Religion
as
The Klu Klux Klan is to Christianity

Ideologically? Sure. In terms of power and influence within the religion as a whole or, even scarier, within certain aspects of governmental functions? Not even close.

KaponoFor3: No matter what one thinks about the war itself, everyone has to applaud this type of news.

No they don't. This is terrible news if you are trying to get elected on the "We have only made the world worse" platform.

Nabb1: Uh, not really close there, sparky. Maybe you can find some ideological parallels, but in sheer numbers and acts of violence, there is no comparison.

Only because of a lack of access to more dangerous weapons, and vigilant policing efforts to curtail their influence and activities.

Christ, no Islam Vs. Christianity bullshiat...


it's good news either way, but I'd be more interested if anything was actually changed. I have a feeling a vast majority of Muslisms don't agree with the loonies. Maybe with what their goals are, to some extent, but not their methods.

Code_Archeologist: Nabb1: Uh, not really close there, sparky. Maybe you can find some ideological parallels, but in sheer numbers and acts of violence, there is no comparison.

Only because of a lack of access to more dangerous weapons, and vigilant policing efforts to curtail their influence and activities.

Or maybe a more widespread rejection of their ideological bent among the mainstream? Are you saying that the KKK would be much more powerful and influential? And lack of access to more dangerous weapons? Are you kidding me? There are drug dealers and criminals in the US just as heavily armed as the insurgents, if not more so, and they do a lot of damage with improvised explosives? You don't think the KKK couldn't get their hands into some illegally traded weapons like any other terrorist organization? This is a preposterous comparison. I mean, the KKK are the dregs of humanity, but let's not get ridiculous.

FeedTheCollapse: Christ, no Islam Vs. Christianity bullshiat...

You're right, but every damned thread on radical Islam turns into this debate. It's so intellectually dishonest, and it's largely started by people who I think have an axe to grind. I'm done arguing this. We've been down this road hundreds of times, and it leads to the same stupid flame war every single time.

Code_Archeologist: Easy word association exercise to help people understand radical islam's role in the greater experience of the muslim world.


Radical Islam is to the Muslim Religion
as
The Klu Klux Klan is to Christianity

Let's not forget other white power movements also. The Klan is the most famous, but not even close to the most dangerous.

And as others have stated, the white power movement does not have the political influence in this country like many militant Muslims have in their countries. However, we have our own group of farkstick fundamentalists that have a lot of pull here.

The Onanist: Arson seems to be way more prevalent than the bombings.

Bombing something will get you branded as a terrorist and bring the feds down on you. Setting it on fire just makes you a pyromaniac and atracts less attention.
The ones who worry me are the wack jobs taking down license plate numbers on the cars in clinic parking lots. There's nothing quite like getting stalked by a bunch of crazed fundies.

Nabb1: Or maybe a more widespread rejection of their ideological bent among the mainstream? Are you saying that the KKK would be much more powerful and influential? And lack of access to more dangerous weapons? Are you kidding me? There are drug dealers and criminals in the US just as heavily armed as the insurgents, if not more so, and they do a lot of damage with improvised explosives? You don't think the KKK couldn't get their hands into some illegally traded weapons like any other terrorist organization? This is a preposterous comparison. I mean, the KKK are the dregs of humanity, but let's not get ridiculous.

I agree with you regarding the weapons and such, but he does have a good point about accountability for their actions.

kronicfeld: I agree with you regarding the weapons and such, but he does have a good point about accountability for their actions.

No, I agree. But I think it's a reflection of our society as a whole that we demand that accountability. It's not like the government is doing it either reluctantly or against the general consensus.

But but but Jesus!

El Dudereno: There's nothing quite like getting stalked by a bunch of crazed fundies.

Unless you are into that.

/Giggity.

Nabb1: This is a preposterous comparison. I mean, the KKK are the dregs of humanity, but let's not get ridiculous.

When the KKK was in ascendancy in the US they were incredibly dangerous in the Southern US. Their influence over local and state governments seemed unstoppable, and they were flagrantly willing to kill people who disagreed with their ideology.

They are not currently a threat today because they have been severely marginalized, their activities monitored, and most of their leaders have died in jail. But at one time the KKK was the equivalent of our own group of radical religious wackos. If they still had the power today that they had then, they could be able to mount a significant insurgency in the South.

Code_Archeologist: When the KKK was in ascendancy in the US they were incredibly dangerous in the Southern US.



/Obligatory
//And what you said is the truth, although they were not just confined to the South.

The Onanist: /Obligatory

Bwahahaha. I had never seen that one. I am totally stealing it.

The Onanist: El Dudereno: There's nothing quite like getting stalked by a bunch of crazed fundies.

Unless you are into that.

/Giggity.

I bet they're freaks in the bedroom.

I_C_Weener: KaponoFor3: No matter what one thinks about the war itself, everyone has to applaud this type of news.

No they don't. This is terrible news if you are trying to get elected on the "We have only made the world worse" platform.

Find WMDs
Imminent Threat
Training Terrorists
Cheaper Oil
More Expensive Oil
Stimulate Economy
Dispose Saddam Hussein
Free the Iraqis
Kill the Iraqis
Spread Democracy
Screw the UN
Enforce the UN Resolutions
Because it'll be fun
Yeah let's kill some brown people
Woohoo Bunker Busters
We broke it we bought it
Fight them over there so we don't fight them over here
I forget how many diffrent reasons you clowns came up with over the years
I bet you forget too
9/11 9/11 9/11
Nine/Eleven
Stay the Course
Can't cut and run
100 years of war

Kickstart a religious civil war so that teenagers will rebel against authority figures

Gee, 5 years, about a trillion dollars, and a couple hundred thousand people maimed or killed, and you're still coming up with excuses for the invasion. Marvelous.

Next year: Today in Iraq, the sun came up. Libs still say war unnecessary!

It's good news. I'm glad. But you're still a chode, and this war was still a terrible idea.

Tastes Like Chicken: It's good news. I'm glad. But you're still a chode, and this war was still a terrible idea.

And my point still stands.

I_C_Weener: Tastes Like Chicken: It's good news. I'm glad. But you're still a chode, and this war was still a terrible idea.

And my point still stands.

Not really. I do applaud the news. I think it's great news. I just think there was a better way to get Iraq to the "rebellious teenager" phase, and that even after all the times the "justification" for the war has been warped and changed, it's reached comical proportions if "rebellious teens" is now on the list.

Islam looks to be re-forming. It won't happen overnight, but this is good news that they are turning away from the fundies. This coupled with King Abdullahs changes he's been trying to make are very good news. The wahhabi types are losing their grip. That was also an interesting read on what happened within the Shiite community there with the surge in their religious fervor. Now that they've quenched the starvation of religious freedom Saddam had set on them, they most likely will be mellowing out as well.

/The educated taking advantage of the un-educated doesn't surprise me at all.
//Can Iraq have "Hope" too?

KaponoFor3: No matter what one thinks about the war itself, everyone has to applaud this type of news.

The progress, but not the price. As wars become longer, tactics becomes logistics, which in turn becomes demographics. It's tragic we may have to fight on that kind of time scale. It will be really tragic if the lessons don't last more than one generation.

The one thing in the article that worries me is the mention that "recordings of beheadings fetched much higher prices than those of shooting executions". It sounds reminiscent of snuff fetish.

Nabb1: Uh, not really close there, sparky. Maybe you can find some ideological parallels, but in sheer numbers and acts of violence, there is no comparison.

The KKK wasn't always a bunch of pathetic dead-end rednecks. They were a massive organization in the 1920's that controlled whole state legislatures, and even could march down the streets of Washington DC with their faces. There was a reason they picked up the name "The Invisible Empire." It looks a long time to grind them into the dust of history. It will take equally long with the radical islamists. But it will happen.

abb3w: The progress, but not the price.

there's a term that most people need to be better acquainted with.

ROI. return on investment. if you get an ice cream cone, yay! if you get an ice cream cone and it costs you $300, boo! try pointing out to someone who just got tricked into spending $300 on an ice cream cone that they should just be happy they got the ice cream. they'll probably smash it in your face.

muck4doo: Islam looks to be re-forming. It won't happen overnight, but this is good news that they are turning away from the fundies. This coupled with King Abdullahs changes he's been trying to make are very good news. The wahhabi types are losing their grip. That was also an interesting read on what happened within the Shiite community there with the surge in their religious fervor. Now that they've quenched the starvation of religious freedom Saddam had set on them, they most likely will be mellowing out as well.

Here's an interesting question -- would the sacrifices of the Iraq war be justified, in the minds of those who vehemently oppose it, if it serves as the catalyst for the rejection of militant or fundamentalist Islam in the broader Middle East (or even solely in Iraq?)

NOW we can bring the troops home. We have turned the Iraqi youth into the best model of young Americans. They hate everything that the older generation stands for.

problem solved - fire up the c-5s and c-17s.

but but but Bush is creating a whole new generation of terrorists

If you had looked at 1960's American youth and projected 100 years of LSD, Free Love and painted Volkswagens you would have been:

A. A tenured anthropoligist
B. John MCain
C. Wrong

NEWSFLASH:

It is pretty easy to turn a secular dictatorship into a secular democracy.

They felt the same way in SECULAR Iraq before we invaded and blessed them with democracy...Try not to break your arm patting yourselfs on the back there apologists.

DaSwankOne: NEWSFLASH:

It is pretty easy to turn a secular dictatorship into a secular democracy.

By pretty easy, I mean killing tens of thousands of people an spending 5 trillion dollars.

KaponoFor3: would the sacrifices of the Iraq war be justified, in the minds of those who vehemently oppose it, if it serves as the catalyst for the rejection of militant or fundamentalist Islam in the broader Middle East (or even solely in Iraq?)

Since Iraq WAS a secular state whose leaders had rejected fundy Islam, I'd say "no" to that.

If the invasion of Iraq could possibly have some big broad affect throughout the middle east? Yes, I think that would make the whole forray worthwhile. I simply don't believe that's going to happen, especially given the way the invasion is clearly having the opposite affect -- radicalizing the previously-non-radical, emboldending Iran and Syria and making both of those countries into power-players instead of pariahs, backing up Osama's threats to the Arab street about how the Americans are crusaders who are coming to invade and seize the Caliphate etc.

If jumping off a bridge had the end-result of me learning how to flap my arms and fly then, yes, jumping off a bridge would be a great idea.